Job skills vs Education vs People skills vs Workplace politics.

[applej4]

Case in point:

 

The sister of a good friend was “let go” from her job a few weeks ago. When I say “let go” I mean I’m not sure if it was a lay-off, firing, or what. She is 46, been with the most recent employer for about 5 yrs, but there have been issues with regard to tension and conflicts with other staff and even with her (now former) boss.

 

She has a college degree, nice looking, articulate, and has had some good jobs, but aside from the most recent job the longest she stayed with one employer is 4 years – usually a couple years. She quit several jobs for what seems to be odd reasons (office politics, being dumped on, boss favored a co-worker, too much work/stress). At a couple jobs she got promoted, but then had problems and was either “let go” or quit. She is single. When she quit she usually didn’t have another job to go to and apparently lived on her savings and also did temp work. If she was let go she got unemployment.

 

Friend tells me that her sister has a history of getting upset/angry with people at the job (and also personally) and giving them the silent treatment for very long periods of time - only talking if she had to. At one place she filed 2 grievances. While she might have been able to get some decent references, if I was a potential employer I would be suspicious of all the job-hopping. Sometimes that can be hidden, but not always. That might be understandable in your 20s, but not when one approaches late 40s, close to 50.

 

Thoughts?

Edited July 26, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Retitled thread per request

[preraph]

Over my many years, I've seen more people succeed by being liked than by being competent. She is going to the dark side all the way filing grievances, which would be a red flag to any employer. I'm not saying it's fair. I am more on the side of very competent but haven't felt liked by fellow employees or my employees since I was very young and fit in with them. I've seen men surpass me by playing golf with the boss. It's not fair, but it's reality. If you can get someone up the chain to like you, it will help.

 

I am one of those people who is usually ahead of the curve seeing problems coming. You'd think that would be a good thing to prevent disaster, but I found that none of my bosses ever wanted to deal with a brewing problem until it exploded all over them. So I learned to let other people be the troubleshooter and whistleblower and take the heat for that, because I got a lot of resentment for that. Not everyone can see consequences down the road and they just think you're being negative. I'd advise your sister to keep her head down but always be smiley and polite to anyone she's passing in the hall and she'll save herself a lot of grief and unemployment.

[applej4]

[i'd advise your sister

Not my sister - she is the sister of a close friend. I've met her and heard a lot about her employment/job issues (from my friend).

 

Anyway, good points. Potential employers might not know about the grievances, but it’s a small world. Someone often knows or is related to someone else who works at a certain place, or has heard something, KWIM?

 

One of my biggest mistakes early in my working life was to go to battle with my former bosses. She was a liar, a sneak, and I confronted her. Never got over it because she made my life difficult for 2 yrs after that. Instead of fighting (not in a grievance but in other ways) I should have kept my mouth shut, hunkered down, and quietly found another job. Tough lesson learned.

 

Another think that’s important is to go to lunch once in a while with co-workers, and socialize if you’re invited to someone’s house for a party, etc. I usually avoided this, and people resent it.

 

I’ve known of people who are well-liked minimal performers to outlast people who are much more competent, better performers, but are not so well-liked. Unfair as it may be, the survivors usually know who to suck up to. Those who refuse to “play the game” will often find themselves ostracized or unemployed. Giving people the silent treatment? Pffft. No place will put up with that nonsense for very long.

[Fugu]

The ability to navigate the waters of office politics is definitely more important than competence. That's not to say that competence doesn't matter - it does matter, and people will eventually notice if you're not that good at what you do. But here's the deal. In an office environment, and especially in a big company, individuals can make mistakes all the time and either not get noticed or leaving it to other people to do the cleaning up afterwards. I would imagine that the right social skills, being able to read the office environment, probably accounts for 65 to 70 percent of your ability to keep your job. Economics not withstanding.

 

I would say that maybe 1 or 2 companies out of 20 really know what they're doing when it comes to handling personnel. The other 80 to 85 percent? Office politics gets in the way of real work in one way or another. Let's face it: when people talk about office politics, it's a negative connotation for a reason. It translates to, "I want to do my job, but it's not that straightforward." And it's not that straightforward because some people don't want you to do your job, for fear of how they'll be perceived in terms of how they do their own. Not saying that your friend's sister is a victim, by the way - I have no idea. But back to my point, in an ideal world, people would know how to behave, do the right thing, be mature, work together altruistically, avoid petty gamesmanship, and management would quickly nip any of this in the bud before it starts. But the reality is that this rarely happens, especially in larger, more established companies. The reason why everyone knows about 'office politics' is that everyone's had to deal with it at one point or another, and to varying degrees.

[preraph]

Not my sister - she is the sister of a close friend. I've met her and heard a lot about her employment/job issues (from my friend).

 

Anyway, good points. Potential employers might not know about the grievances, but it’s a small world. Someone often knows or is related to someone else who works at a certain place, or has heard something, KWIM?

 

One of my biggest mistakes early in my working life was to go to battle with my former bosses. She was a liar, a sneak, and I confronted her. Never got over it because she made my life difficult for 2 yrs after that. Instead of fighting (not in a grievance but in other ways) I should have kept my mouth shut, hunkered down, and quietly found another job. Tough lesson learned.

 

Another think that’s important is to go to lunch once in a while with co-workers, and socialize if you’re invited to someone’s house for a party, etc. I usually avoided this, and people resent it.

 

I’ve known of people who are well-liked minimal performers to outlast people who are much more competent, better performers, but are not so well-liked. Unfair as it may be, the survivors usually know who to suck up to. Those who refuse to “play the game” will often find themselves ostracized or unemployed. Giving people the silent treatment? Pffft. No place will put up with that nonsense for very long.

 

A lot of people resent the good performers because it's a threat to them. It's hard to fight a person at work who is lying and cheating but people like or especially the upper management likes -- and those are the people who ALWAYS kiss supervisors' butts but then treat everyone else bad or try to frame them. It happened to me. There's no good outcome because even if you win the battle, whoever liked her resents you for being right and ruining their setup.

[applej4]

Another thing is that upon coming onboard, the smart person will listen, observe, and determine the “lay of the land”. Even if they are not a new hire, someone who the boss doesn’t like is someone most people don’t want to get close to, UNLESS the boss’s boss likes that person. Even a lower level employee can gain lots of points by being the darling of upper echelon or having the ear of someone who has a lot of power. These are not skills taught in college.

[pink_sugar]

I honestly don't think the job hopping is an issue. Some people move around a lot or have even had crap luck...laid off due to lack of work...let go due to not being a fit or temp or contract work or even having to do part time. I have had more positions than I would have liked the last few years. I had my first professional job for 2 years and had to move on once I got my degree for more opportunities. I found a much better paying job and got let go when they went bankrupt. Then when I relocated I took the first job that came along. It was part time, so I got a 2nd job that was also part time. 6 mo later first job let's me go and I have been at 2nd job almost a year. However full time isn't coming through, so I really have to look for another long term opportunity so I can stay a while. Unfortunately I had little choice in the above. Plus in today's economy most people have several jobs due to lack of job security or the fact that employers hire temp employees or only give part time.

 

For your friend, the red flag is not getting along with others.

[applej4]

Oh, for sure the issue is her having problems getting along with people, but the job-hopping is the result of that, imo. She has a 20+ year work history that shows a pattern. Btw one of the “being let go” was a true lay-off – from what I recall she was working for a non-profit and was paid via a 2 yr grant and it was known the grant might not be renewed. So we can kind of exclude that one, although I don’t recall hearing how she got along with people at that job.

 

But there’s still all the others. A pattern of getting pissed off and quitting without having another job lined up, getting angry and giving people the silent treatment, conflicts with bosses, filing grievances and regardless of the outcome continuing to have problems.

 

I haven’t actually send her resume and I don’t know how she explains so much job-hopping and long periods of temp work...she got a couple permanent jobs thru temp assignments, but things didn’t work out. I told her sister that I would recommend she see a therapist (although who knows how she would take such a suggestion).

 

My point is that a person can have education/degrees, skills, experience, but if s/he can’t learn to roll with punches and get along they won’t succeed. Even owning and running your own business requires people skills.

[kenmore]

Is this mainly about your friend's sister? I was wondering from the title if it was a general question (maybe about your own employment thoughts) or about her.

 

I agree with the assessment that she needs to shut up and not get into people's faces but I also know that can be hard for some people. It is hard for me and I consider myself a very malleable person in the workplace.

 

Mainly some people simply won't tolerate being subordinate. To them it's an embarrassment but it's necessary for most jobs. I agree with Pink sugar that her biggest issue is tolerance of others, but the picture is bigger than that.

 

If this is about her and you're trying to help her, find out more about the grievances. Are they for personal reasons or professional conduct? I apologize if that has been answered already, I stopped reading half way through lol. Sorry, tight schedule.

 

See how that feels? Nobody likes to think they are unimportant, nor their work. She needs to start sending the message that she's into the job and the people...or get a job with the government.

 

Ken

[Clarence_Boddicker]

The biggest "skill" needed in the land of cubicles is the ability to lie to people & eventually yourself convincingly. I learned that when I was sent to the 7 habits of effective people classes in my early 20s for a possible lower management position. I learned that management is unethical by nature & I wanted no part of playing games with people. I left that job not much later & started working for myself. In my very limited experience management was highly incompetent, only exceeded by engineers. This was the billing statement industry in the early 90s.

[applej4]

Is this mainly about your friend's sister? I was wondering from the title if it was a general question (maybe about your own employment thoughts) or about her.

General question. And btw 2 of her jobs were with the govt. She has worked in the private sector, non-profit, and govt. Edited July 28, 2015 by applej4

[Got it]

People expect to see movement nowadays than in earlier generations. The average at a job now is 3-5 years. So her movement, theoretically isn't an issue. But recruiting and hiring managers will look at the type of movement, any stagnancy in positions, etc. as a potential candidate and then evaluate after speaking with her.

 

Some, usually, older managers expect to see long tenure. Most younger ones do not. It also varies by industry and department as well.

 

I am curious why the fascination with her career trajectory?

[applej4]

I am curious why the fascination with her career trajectory?

I’m not ‘fascinated’ with her career trajectory. Her sister has been my friend for a long time, and over the course of our friendship I’ve heard (many times) “sis quit her job, sis got fired, sis got another job, sis is job-hunting again” etc. etc. A few of the jobs lasted less than 6 months. Friend has also told me some details about problems her sister has had on various jobs (grievances, giving people the silent treatment, issues with bosses and co-workers). (To me) there is a pattern or at least an indicator that something isn’t quite right. Just wanted to get other opinions. I don’t feel I should have told friend “Don’t tell me about your sister’s job problems, I’m not interested. Let’s change the subject.”

[Got it]

I’m not ‘fascinated’ with her career trajectory. Her sister has been my friend for a long time, and over the course of our friendship I’ve heard (many times) “sis quit her job, sis got fired, sis got another job, sis is job-hunting again” etc. etc. A few of the jobs lasted less than 6 months. Friend has also told me some details about problems her sister has had on various jobs (grievances, giving people the silent treatment, issues with bosses and co-workers). (To me) there is a pattern or at least an indicator that something isn’t quite right. Just wanted to get other opinions. I don’t feel I should have told friend “Don’t tell me about your sister’s job problems, I’m not interested. Let’s change the subject.”

 

Some people just don't learn how to work with others and situations are rinse and repeat.

[applej4]

Yeah, that's my point.

[kenmore]

General question. And btw 2 of her jobs were with the govt. She has worked in the private sector, non-profit, and govt.

 

Well, if she got fired from a government job, she may be hopeless. If she quit, maybe it was just too sucky (I think most govt jobs are thankless and honestly, unorganized; that can get to people.)

 

But, the real issue is this pattern has one common denominator..your friend's sister. Now before you condemn her or guide her (which is what this thread is about? I'm still not sure), every instance is unique. Some of her workmates were undoubtedly *ssholes...that goes with the territory usually. Lord knows I have worked with my share as have we all.

 

This last gig I had in insurance, I have to admit I liked everyone there. The top boss was kind of a jerk but never to me. Just a general dick. Of course it's tougher being a jerk to someone you're not paying. Somehow they ended up finding a way.

 

Generally speaking, we have to want a job badly enough to put up with all the crap and crappy people. After years of not being able to find good employment in my field, I'm ready to grab hold of the reigns and ride out a whole sea of BS (kinda like as I just did.) Maybe her problem has been that it's too easy to get re-employed.

"She has a college degree, nice looking, articulate, and has had some good jobs"

why put up with crap if another job is just waiting in the wings? I admire her choices.

 

Ken

[applej4]

At one point it was relatively easy for her to find another job – if only a temp job – but the job market has tightened up a LOT. Even in better times, friend said sis was supplementing her sometimes low earnings or unemployment with her savings and credit cards. She has never been able to buy a house (was even close to eviction from her apt.) Then there’s been the loss of benefits.

 

No, she was never fired from a govt. job, she quit both times. Relatively easy and good paying govt jobs. But someone pissed her off, or she was required to help with something she felt wasn’t her responsibility, etc.

 

She’s even been fired from a few temp jobs (clerical). Usually no explanation other than “not the right fit”.

 

No, I’m not guiding her. I’m just listening to friend tell me how tired she is of hearing sis talk about her problems.

[hoping2heal]

(mostly) All the education in the world is not going to benefit a person to its full potential if they have poor social skills. I guess in her case she just job hops. But, imagine the benefits etc. she could have worked her way up to after staying with a company 10,15,20 etc. years.

[applej4]

Keep in mind, the job quits/firings I’ve talked about here are only the ones I’ve heard about – it’s a safe bet to assume there have been others. Could all her bosses and co-workers have been a-holes? I seriously doubt it.

 

She is also single (never married, never had kids) and as I mentioned never bought a house. I tend to think if she were (for example) a single parent with a mortgage and college tuition looming she would not have been so quick to quit some of those jobs, and instead of conducting herself in ways that got her fired, she might have put forth effort to work things out and be more flexible (instead of filing grievances and giving people the silent treatment, etc.). No, I'm not saying everyone who has a family and/or a mortgage is professionally successful - just that those responsibilities tend to make people think more about the ramifications of their choices.

[kenmore]

Yes, temp jobs are fleeting and can barely be referred to as employment, but from what you describe, I'd say she has an attitude problem. One of the biggest ways of not "being a good fit" is by having a 'tude.

 

That said, just recently while "self-employed" (code for not drawing a paycheck despite a lot of work), it was suggested by my trainer that I take a part-time position with another agent. The deal was low pay and a commission split of any business I brought in. She "allowed" me to work there for four days (a day was three hours) before basically telling me it's not working out. Two of the four days she wasn't even in the office. She couldn't have known about a lot of what I did and I felt I didn't get a fair shake. I guess my point is it's easy letting temp help go.

 

But the disturbing trend regarding your friend's sister points to issues bigger than that. It most likely goes as deep as her personality and she may not be able to change it. If she's lucky, she will land in a good job one day where everything clicks. Finding that perfect job can be elusive.

[applej4]

Temp jobs indeed can be fleeting and usually not impressive to potential employers. There are exceptions: 1) if the temp worked at, say, a well-known prestigious company famous for having high standards 2) if the temp’s supervisor is someone that HR or potential new supervisor respects and is acquainted with (they WILL check for a reference).

 

But the “I’ve temped for 3 yrs because I’m a free-spirit and I get bored easily” rationale doesn’t cut it. That translates to “I can’t commit and I have attitude problems, attendance problems, or some other problem(s)”) which potential employers just don’t have the time or interesting in dealing with.

 

I learned the hard way that sometimes one has to swallow their pride, curb the anger/attitude/stubborness, bite the tongue, and try hard to roll with the punches. It will most likely pay off later. I’m not advocating being a doormat or a constant butt-kisser. I’m saying choose your battles carefully or you will find yourself frequently unemployed – either because they let you go/fired you or because you got pissed off and quit – too many times. Filling gaps with unemployment and temp jobs over and over, year after year, makes potential employers suspicious and it is a very small world.