Dealing with (parasitic) graduate students

[ana0pera]

I've posted on LS many times about how I hate grad school, hate my advisor, hate my labmates. None of that has changed. Actually, after spending two months in the field with researchers at other institutions, learning a lot, feeling appreciated, and challenged, my feelings of hatred have only intensified. I only have two years (god willing) left so I am working hard to get out of here as fast as possible and into a more positive work environment.

 

But I need to deal with these guys in the meantime. Today something happened that annoyed the crap out of me and I didn't really react yet, because I want to know the best way to go forward.

 

We are all writing grant proposals for a very competitive program. This is the last year that I am eligible to apply (we have two years of eligibility, unless you take longer than five years to do the PhD). 4 of the other 5 grad students have two years of eligibility left, and 3 of them will definitely be applying. Last year when I wrote mine, not one of these guys gave me feedback on the drafts I sent out months before the deadline. They all had excuses, no time to read it, etc. They had qualifying exams approximately 4 months later (they weren't prepping for these exams when I was writing this grant, btw) and hassled me, the other students in the lab, and anyone within earshot to read it. I read them and gave them all comments (please note that when I did my exam, during their first year, only one of them actually read my draft even though they all received it and were asked to edit it).

 

Today, during lunch two of them asked if I could send them the final copy of the proposal I submitted last year. I didn't know what to say. First of all I didn't win last year, and they already have the copy of a winning proposal that our friend wrote. So I could understand wanting to see what separates a winning copy from a losing copy. They said they want a better idea of the format (which they can look up on the website, but I digress).

 

What it boils down to, I guess, is that I am slightly bitter that they have the nerve to ask me for something that (1) I already gave them--albeit in a draft form and (2)is going to be the base for what I am using this year (with some major changes, obviously).

 

It's compounded by the fact that these guys never really help me with anything, and don't really contribute anything positive to the lab culture in general. Like, they show up to journal club having not read the paper assigned, or come to a meeting where everyone is supposed to bring data emptyhanded. My advisor hasn't seen these things and the other grad students don't say anything about it either, but it does bother me.

 

I don't like to look at this as a competition, but to act like it isn't is being dumb. I need the grant just as much as them, perhaps even more than them, since I have less time to finish my degree. Even though I didn't get it, there were some parts of my application that the grant reviewers really liked and I don't want them to profit off of my hard work---when i wrote mine I only had one winning model to look at and everything else came from me, comments from my advisor, and comments from the grad students who did help me.

 

They've done this before, asking for things I write that won something or a prof said looked good so that they can use it as a model. Am I overreacting and being unfair here in not wanting to share my old grant proposal with them? If I don't share it with them, any good ways that I can break it to them gently? I don't want to blow up at them, as you can see there are a lot of things I dislike about them, but I have to work with them directly for the next two years and we'll always be acquainted due to the nature of our field.

 

I feel like I don't want to help them because they're not pulling their weight, but I also know that is a bitchy thing to say and isn't going to help improve the lab culture. Yet I feel like they need to learn a lesson, they've been given so much for free and need to learn how to pay it forward.

[Lani]

I worked in research grants administration for many years.

Your proposal is private, and you are well within your rights to deny them access to it.

 

Simply tell them that you are re-working the proposal for this years submission round, and you'd prefer not to send it to them. If they kick up a fuss then so be it. They're just being immature.

 

As for others not reviewing your proposal last year, this is common.

If you are really wanting constructive feedback on your proposal itself (not the science) then get in touch with your grants office and ask them to put you in contact with a grant writer. Usually these services should be offered but not always mentioned as they come at a cost. If they don't have any services available, ask them to point you in the direction of one. It would be worth the effort given this is your last opportunity.

 

Good luck

[darkmoon]

"I don't like to look at this as a competition" just be pleasant and also listen to Radu, these people are not best friends

 

if others were after my work/ideas, I would be flattered, but keep them private, learn to say you are "busy" to break free of these people, even if/when they get pissed, there is cash to be gained, good jobs to come, you are all competing for these things, hence the parasite factor

 

I hope one day you also find a crowd where your tendencies/ideals about being nice to everybody works out, it's not this one, that's clear

Edited July 30, 2013 by darkmoon

[Fugu]

Not too much to add, really. I'd second what was said earlier, that your grant is private, and I agree that this is a competition, and that's exactly how I'd look at it. At any rate, don't be a pushover. Take care of your own needs first. Be non-confrontational "I'll have to look for it," "I think I have it, but I can't locate it at the moment." Make sh*t up.

[Krytie TV]

If you don't want to tell them no for the real reasons that you laid out here, I would simply tell them that something happened to the file (corrupted, deleted, whatever) or hardcopy or whatever. It's the easiest way to go about it. If you have to possibly spend two more years with this people, there's no gain in creating conflict. Take the high road and move on.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I think that your mistake is that you made yourself too available and friendly and failed to assert your boundaries. Like it or not, they ARE your competition.

 

You should be less attached to what others think of you, or if they like you or think you are a nice person. Put your needs first including telling them what Lani suggested. Then put some distance between you.

[ana0pera]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! One of them already e-mailed us (another student also applied previously and me) about sending the application and I haven't responded. I am going to act like I didn't see the email. I don't want to burn bridges because inevitably I might need these guys to do something for me in the future, but at the same time I don't want my hard work to even the playing field for them.

 

I am not trying to be a pushover with these guys, the problem (or more accurately, the precedent) is that our lab culture is very collaborative even in times of competition. My whole department is quite open, which is something I like. When I won a prestigious grant a few years ago, I sent the draft to all of my lab/other grad students for feedback, a lot of them gave me comments, and they sent me their applications for feedback, which I gave. Winners share their applications openly to those applying as well. The problem now is that these guys do not really abide by that culture of helping...they just ask for help, which is unfair.

 

My major fear is that they'll tell my advisor about the fact that I don't want to share and then my advisor will be upset with me, because as I said, our lab culture is about helping each other out. But if that happens, I am fully prepared to tell my advisor that I don't feel like they are pulling their weight and I can name 20 some-odd instances of that happening to justify my actions, as petty as that might be. I need to cover my butt first, and honestly, I don't think my advisor will be surprised to hear about their actions. Disgusted, yes, but not surprised.

 

 

I don't want to keep making excuses for why I don't want to share it, but I don't want to burn any bridges by saying it's because their parasites. if it comes down to it, i will let them know it's because it's a private document i am still working on, and if they don't accept that as an answer, well then they've burnt the bridges and i will unleash my wrath and let them know how i really feel lol

Edited July 31, 2013 by ana0pera

[darkmoon]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! One of them already e-mailed us (another student also applied previously and me) about sending the application and I haven't responded. I am going to act like I didn't see the email. I don't want to burn bridges because inevitably I might need these guys to do something for me in the future, but at the same time I don't want my hard work to even the playing field for them.

 

I am not trying to be a pushover with these guys, the problem (or more accurately, the precedent) is that our lab culture is very collaborative even in times of competition. My whole department is quite open, which is something I like. When I won a prestigious grant a few years ago, I sent the draft to all of my lab/other grad students for feedback, a lot of them gave me comments, and they sent me their applications for feedback, which I gave. Winners share their applications openly to those applying as well. The problem now is that these guys do not really abide by that culture of helping...they just ask for help, which is unfair.

 

My major fear is that they'll tell my advisor about the fact that I don't want to share and then my advisor will be upset with me, because as I said, our lab culture is about helping each other out. But if that happens, I am fully prepared to tell my advisor that I don't feel like they are pulling their weight and I can name 20 some-odd instances of that happening to justify my actions, as petty as that might be. I need to cover my butt first, and honestly, I don't think my advisor will be surprised to hear about their actions. Disgusted, yes, but not surprised.

 

 

I figure that if they make this a big deal and tell my advisor that I don't want to share it, and my advisor confronts me about i

 

talk to the advisor, cover your butt, you have a concern - tell him/her what you told us and ask how to protect yourself from them using you and your efforts? mention it to him/her after class

 

do not expect disgust from him/her, you might sound like a prima donna, you are just another bunch of students to him/her with more to come, these people will not be there for you, they have let you down already, this lab culture is not a command, just a routine, it is an ideal that has already affected you adversely

Edited July 31, 2013 by darkmoon

[Radu]

I don't know if i posted in this thread before or not [someone referenced my user but i couldn't find the post] so i'm going to add this, hopefully not again.

 

My sister works in research [PhD], my mom worked in research [polymers and paints], i have 2 families that are family friends who worked in research [polymers and composite materials] and teaching at university level ...

Academia are wh*res.

There, i said it.

Outside of the arts, journalism and lawyers you will not find a group of ppl more petty, more corrupt, who regardless of gender will act like primadonna's while making sure that dagger gets deep and nice in your back.

Always watch your back, and always think 'me' when you deal with the kinds of ppl you have referenced.

 

You should not feel bad about doing things the way you chose to do them, and i hope you win your grant.