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In the middle of he-said, she-said... what do I do?


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About a year ago, I started collaborating with a group of scientists abroad. At first it was all very casual, but once the plans for collaboration became more cemented, the group broke up due to a dispute (independent of me). Now I am in a bit of an awkward place.

 

Prof A is the one I know best; he is very open, and welcomed me to the team wholeheartedly. I didn't know anything about the conflict from him until I was invited to do field work with the group and he told me in passing (because I was going to work in Prof B's lab later in the year) what happened. His explanation was brief: he felt like Prof B complained too much and made getting work done hard, so he kicked her off the team.

 

Prof B was introduced to me by Prof A and when I first contacted her (when things were well between them) she was nice but then got cold later on (presumably after she was kicked out of the group). I was really afraid of her to be blunt. But now that I've met her personally and have worked with her, I got her side of the story and find her to be nicer than the first impression she gave off. She said that Prof A is unethical, nepotistic (inviting friends and students from his university to help with fieldwork, even if it's not their area of expertise or interest), and kicked her out of the project she obtained funding for when she raised concerns about these things. Having worked with Prof A, I don't think Prof B is completely off mark with what she's saying. Most of the scientists who were in the field with us are not familiar with the region or do not have degrees/long-term interest in our scientific discipline. I don't know if he did anything illegal because I am not familiar with the laws of his country, but I thought that some of the things he did were questionable. She doesn't want to have anything to do with him and I don't think she wants me to have anything to do with him either.

 

I don't know what to believe and I really don't want to get involved in drama or gossip. I just want to get samples that will help me finish my projects back home. I've talked to my advisor a bit about navigating this drama and it helped but that was before I learned everything from Prof B and it completely changes how I feel about Prof A, even if it is exaggerated. I am supposed to go into the field with him again but now I am wondering if I should. There is another student in Prof A's university that I am working with, he is also working with both of them...do you think it's worth talking to him about it or is that too much?

 

I don't know if I should stop collaborating with one, or both, of these guys. It's not 100% essential to my project that I collaborate with them, but it does make my project a lot stronger, and the system that they have is very good. I've put a lot of time into fostering this collaboration and it was a godsend after my original project fell apart in front of my eyes last year, so I would be a bit sad if I had to let it go as well (and my advisor wouldn't be happy either, I guess)

 

Any advice on what to do?

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I don't know enough about the inner workings of academia, but based on what little I do know, these kinds of spats are common. They're fighting over political and intellectual turf, and it can be some of the fiercest and most vicious fighting imaginable.

 

I am reminded of the advice of Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese military philosopher. I think in a time like this, the best thing you can do is to protect yourself first and foremost. I would not raise the subject with anyone, and I would be cautious about commenting on it even if someone raises it with you. Frankly, if it's not essential to work with these people, I would work with them only on an as-needed basis. I think you've already struck a good balance. You still have the trust of both, which is what you want. Try to preserve it as long as you can.

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I think you need to stay out of the conflict altogether. You clearly have your own opinions, but for the sake of your project, you need to keep them to yourself.

 

By all means, continue collaborating with both professors. If the topic comes up again with one of them, listen, be polite, and be generally agreeable. Just don't express opinions or a strong bias of your own.

 

Your objective is to remain in good terms with both of them for the remainder of the project. Therefore, you must NOT take sides or stir more trouble. Simply act like you would have if you hadn't known anything about their conflict.

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TheFinalWord

When it comes to political in-fighting, it is better to not get involved. You will not be able to win. As a student, you have little power so "picking" a side is not beneficial.

 

I personally do not think it is professional for either professor to involve you in their political drama; no matter what professor x claims professor y did.

 

If possible, I would not argue with your advisor or engage in dialogue that would foster more gossip. And that is exactly what all of this amounts to : gossip. Gossip is gossip no matter what credentials someone has behind their name.

 

"Academic politics are so vicious precisely b/c the stakes are so small" - Henry Kissinger

 

If you want to be in academia, the most important theory is not the ones relevant to your field. It's actually Sayre's law :D

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thanks for the advice everyone! fortunately my advisor is out of this 100%, she doesn't know either of the profs. and they're not in her field (i'm interdisciplinary). She is the safest person I can talk to about this, she is always on my side (again, doesn't know them so she is completely out of the drama)

 

it's been a bit frustrating getting stuff done because of the fact they no longer work together, but the samples i want to use are from when they worked together. She wants to put up lots of red tape as to what i can and can't have, whereas he says i can take whatever i want. I don't want to have to wait forever to get the data but i want to make sure everyone is on board so if i have to wait some, fine, but I do worry that I am waiting because of the drama, not because there's concern about how I will use the samples.

 

I am not taking sides, but the fact that there is so much tension makes me want to abandon ship completely. It is a collaboration, we both have stuff to gain from it, and I feel like I am putting in more than my share (granted I am a student so of course I have to do more, but I come from a prestigious university and a big named lab whereas their lab is not well-known as our's, so while it might sound a bit harsh to say, they have a lot to gain from collaborating with me too).

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The reason I hate working with academia and, well, other teachers is because I'm either working with women, or I'm working with men who act like women. I'm sorry, i like women and all outside of the office. Inside the office, they bring all their bullsh*t catty crap to work, and I can't f*cking stand it.

 

There, I got that off my chest. I don't care what anyone thinks.

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The reason I hate working with academia and, well, other teachers is because I'm either working with women, or I'm working with men who act like women. I'm sorry, i like women and all outside of the office. Inside the office, they bring all their bullsh*t catty crap to work, and I can't f*cking stand it.

 

There, I got that off my chest. I don't care what anyone thinks.

 

ouch. i think it's better to say they both act like high school students (in particular high school girls... mean girls anyone)? :laugh::laugh:

 

Yesterday the female prof did something that was very catty...when I told her I wouldn't be using the male prof's newest samples in my experiment (because the sample quality is a little too low for my methodology) she started laughing and did a little dance. childish much?

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TheFinalWord
thanks for the advice everyone! fortunately my advisor is out of this 100%, she doesn't know either of the profs. and they're not in her field (i'm interdisciplinary). She is the safest person I can talk to about this, she is always on my side (again, doesn't know them so she is completely out of the drama)

 

it's been a bit frustrating getting stuff done because of the fact they no longer work together, but the samples i want to use are from when they worked together. She wants to put up lots of red tape as to what i can and can't have, whereas he says i can take whatever i want. I don't want to have to wait forever to get the data but i want to make sure everyone is on board so if i have to wait some, fine, but I do worry that I am waiting because of the drama, not because there's concern about how I will use the samples.

 

I am not taking sides, but the fact that there is so much tension makes me want to abandon ship completely. It is a collaboration, we both have stuff to gain from it, and I feel like I am putting in more than my share (granted I am a student so of course I have to do more, but I come from a prestigious university and a big named lab whereas their lab is not well-known as our's, so while it might sound a bit harsh to say, they have a lot to gain from collaborating with me too).

 

I am slightly confused. Is this data you are collecting for your thesis/dissertation?

 

Are both of these professors on your dissertation committee?

 

Are you in the US?

 

If you have already proposed your dissertation, and the committee has agreed to your methodology, they cannot legally re-tract your proposal. If you have already proposed the methodology, and the professors have approved it you will have to stick to it.

 

If there is going to be in-fighting over your data collection methods, you can go to the department head. You have rights as a student. Basically, if they have agreed to your proposal, you can have the graduate school help you resolve the problem.

 

If you have not yet proposed your dissertation, I would recommend to drop the professor from your committee that you do not want to work with.

 

One other piece of advice. You do not have to save the world with your dissertation. Your job is to complete the project and move on. You can set up your methodology however you want when you have your own lab. For now, I would recommend to pick your battles wisely.:)

Edited by TheFinalWord
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I am slightly confused. Is this data you are collecting for your thesis/dissertation?

 

Are both of these professors on your dissertation committee?

 

Are you in the US?

 

If you have already proposed your dissertation, and the committee has agreed to your methodology, they cannot legally re-tract your proposal. If you have already proposed the methodology, and the professors have approved it you will have to stick to it.

 

If there is going to be in-fighting over your data collection methods, you can go to the department head. You have rights as a student. Basically, if they have agreed to your proposal, you can have the graduate school help you resolve the problem.

 

If you have not yet proposed your dissertation, I would recommend to drop the professor from your committee that you do not want to work with.

 

One other piece of advice. You do not have to save the world with your dissertation. Your job is to complete the project and move on. You can set up your methodology however you want when you have your own lab. For now, I would recommend to pick your battles wisely.:)

 

This is for my dissertation. I've already proposed my dissertation, at my University it is very fluid though so I can change things a bit if a problem arises. This project composes 1/4 of my dissertation and I sent them all of my protocols and methodology before we started collaborating because I wanted them to know my intent and what I would need. Neither of these professors are on my committee (thank god) and they're actually not in my University, or even in my country. I am in the US, though, they are not.

 

Thanks for your words of support! They've both agreed to work with me, but because they no longer work together, one professor (the female) doesn't want me working with the male anymore. I'm not getting involved in this petty drama, I think I am going to distance myself from both of them as much as possible so that I can still do the work but not cause more drama. It's quite a shame but you are right, I don't need to do it all. I want to make collaborations that will help me in the future when I do set up my own lab, and I was really hoping I could collaborate with this entire group in the future, but it's obvious that I can't and eventually I will have to pick one, or not work with either.

 

The woman is just so immature. She asked if I was going to use some samples the man procured and I am not because the quality is low (not his fault at all, the samples are just too old in age for me to use) and when I said no she literally started cheering. I mean, really? You get so much pleasure out of that? Don't you have more important things to get happy/mad about?

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TheFinalWord
This is for my dissertation. I've already proposed my dissertation, at my University it is very fluid though so I can change things a bit if a problem arises. This project composes 1/4 of my dissertation and I sent them all of my protocols and methodology before we started collaborating because I wanted them to know my intent and what I would need. Neither of these professors are on my committee (thank god) and they're actually not in my University, or even in my country. I am in the US, though, they are not.

 

Thanks for your words of support! They've both agreed to work with me, but because they no longer work together, one professor (the female) doesn't want me working with the male anymore. I'm not getting involved in this petty drama, I think I am going to distance myself from both of them as much as possible so that I can still do the work but not cause more drama. It's quite a shame but you are right, I don't need to do it all. I want to make collaborations that will help me in the future when I do set up my own lab, and I was really hoping I could collaborate with this entire group in the future, but it's obvious that I can't and eventually I will have to pick one, or not work with either.

 

The woman is just so immature. She asked if I was going to use some samples the man procured and I am not because the quality is low (not his fault at all, the samples are just too old in age for me to use) and when I said no she literally started cheering. I mean, really? You get so much pleasure out of that? Don't you have more important things to get happy/mad about?

 

Yes, I sympathize with you as these things can happen. I think you are doing the right thing and I agree with you the behavior is childish. I would recommend to keep everything as professional as possible and not burn any bridges.

 

There could be bad blood between them. One thing you will find in academia is that some people become very elitist in their thinking, especially as it pertains to their research. Instead of seeing fellow researchers as colleagues with a difference of opinion, which can refine their research (devil's advocate can be handy), they see it as a personal insult. To me, we are given these degrees to better mankind and serve others, not to puff ourselves up and become exalted in our minds. However, some do not learn this lesson.

 

One good thing from this is that you know how not to treat your own students when you are running the show someday, i.e. not using them as chess pieces or putting them in the middle of academic politics. Good luck with your dissertation! :bunny:

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