How to deal with this situation - anyone handle problems with vets before?

[KikiW]

Will try to make this short as possible. We adopted a pup about 3 months ago - he was supposed to be neutered before we got him, but the people fostering had heard from the shelter they rescue from that they were full and would start euthanizing, so knowing we were on board to take him, they asked if we could take him early.

 

Anyway, started calling around asking for costs. All previous pets I adopted came already fixed so didn't know the fees - found prices ranging from $65-450. Called a shelter near me and they said they had a certificate program, where they refer to a vet and send me a card that I have to take to them.

 

I get the card and the fee says "$0" and to call the vet for any additional costs, which I do. I tell the girl I have this card, and ask her about any other fees, she says "oh there's nothing else" - I said really? she says YEP! I said wow that's a great program! She says I need to wait until he's closer to 6 months old and to call when ready, and make sure to save the card.

 

So I wait and call again. Mention the card, the woman says they can take him the next day. Again mentions to bring the card and any medical records I have on him.

 

I take him in the next day, she takes the card, they weigh my pup, we go into an exam room so doc can check him over real quick, says he looks great. Woman comes back after making copies of his records and they say they will call me after procedure's done. They do, everything went fine, I can pick him up the next day.

 

I go and pick him up, they bring him out, he's happy as a clam. Girl says "he's good to go!" I ask if there's anything else I need to know or do, she say's nope he's good! And she wanders off down the hall. I am thinking that's the end of that and I take him out to get in the car, right outside the front door (literally, another client came and opened the door and I could see the girl back at the receptionist desk).

 

I get a call an hour after I get home telling me I didn't get the neuter certificate nor did I pay the $185 fee! I was floored! After explaining everything that I typed above and asking why I didn't receive a quote, she had no answer, but said well the procedure's done so you need to pay.

 

After getting off the phone and consulting a couple of people, I was advised to speak to the owner. I was referred back to the office manager, and I politely but firmly asked to speak to the owner. I never got a call.

 

Since then, I received two bills in the mail from them. After the first one, I sent a letter marked PERSONAL & CONFIDENTIAL to the owner, explaining what happened from my perspective. I also attached printouts from the two lowest priced programs ($65 and $90), either of which I would have gone with had I been told what they charged. I asked that the owner please contact me to discuss this further, as I meant to offer to pay perhaps what I would have been charged by the other programs. I received no call or letter, only a second bill.

 

I don't feel it's right to give incorrect information, not give a written estimate before the procedure, and then insist I pay the full amount. But I am at a loss - what can I do now?

[carhill]

I wouldn't pay them and make them force you into small claims court and would also visit the shelter in person and tell them they're promoting a rogue vet with their program for spay/neuter and show them the bills. If possible, get a copy of the card which they normally send out with adoptions, even if they mark 'void' on it, to show the certificate program exists and how it works.

 

Ultimately, the person whose name is on the door and who is licensed by the government is responsible for the actions of his/her business, so that's an avenue to consider as well. Health and sanitation is always a great way to get the government in someone's face.

 

You'll probably get a lot of 'high road' advice, but I've been in business for nearly 30 years so know how business often goes.

 

IME, it's best not to mess with animal people (pet owners).

[KikiW]

That's the thing that's bugging the hell out of me... I spoke with the shelter, they apparently are given a fee schedule but for some reason the volunteer I spoke with didn't give it to me. I told the supervisor I spoke with that while I could have scratched them off my list had they given it to me, I didn't think it was the shelter's job to tell me what the vet would charge (the supervisor seemed very worried I would blame them, or the vet called and asked if they were telling people they would do the procedure for free).

 

The office manager just kept going around in circles - "well I wrote the amount on the card." ("Well you took the card from me and I never saw it again, how do I know what you wrote on it?"), "well that's why we weighed your dog, to know how much to charge." ("I would expect any vet to weigh an animal prior to getting anesthesia, I wouldn't assume it's to know what you charge!")... And the cherry on top being that I don't even get the courtesy of a call from the owner. That's happened to me before, where the doctor was a huge p*ssy and wouldn't speak to me about a problem with his staff. His loss, I was willing to work with them, but it rankles my fur when I just blatently get blown off.

 

I will definitely call the supervisor at the shelter again to give her an update on the situation, so hopefully they think twice about recommending that vet. Do you think I should send a certified letter (resending my first letter) telling them to go shove it (nicely but firmly of course)? Or do you think I should just let it all go?

[KikiW]

Oh, and I was told that the certificate program meant that the vet offered the procedure for a discounted rate, and that the $0 was meant to show that the shelter charged nothing to get this special rate. I totally understand this, but when I call and ASK about the fees and am told there ARE NONE, then make the appointment (again not informed of anything) and then bring him in to have it done (again not informed verbally nor given a written quote), I just don't understand how they can send me bills.

 

I totally blame the receptionist and office manager for failing to disclose the correct information, but either they are filtering my calls and letter to the owner, or he doesn't really care at all.

[Eeyore79]

As far as I'm aware, it's not standard practice for vets to give a written quote before providing treatment. Having owned dogs my whole life and taken them to the vet numerous times, not once have I received a written quote in advance. It's usually assumed that as I brought the dog in and requested treatment, I will pay the bill. Not having a written quote doesn't mean that you're not liable to pay for something that you requested.

 

Ultimately, what it comes down to is that you thought the procedure was free, and it wasn't. If this is your mistake (i.e. if you misread the card and thought that the $0 meant it was free) then it's your fault and you will have to pay. But if it's their mistake (i.e. if the girl on the phone told you it was free and it wasn't) then they have to pay. Unfortunately it's very difficult to prove what someone told you on the phone!

 

In your case, your claim that you're not liable for the bill rests on one thing: the fact that this girl on the phone told you that there would be no fees to pay. Unfortunately, the problem is that it all rests on your word against theirs - you say they told you on the phone that there was nothing to pay, and they say they didn't.

 

I'm curious - did the woman you spoke to when you actually made the appointment also confirm that there were no additional fees? Or is it only the girl you spoke to months ago who said there were no fees? It would be considerably more difficult to prove that some girl told you months ago that there were no additional fees, especially if you don't recall her name. But if the woman who actually made the appointment said the same thing, then you might be able to identify her and have the vet question her, as it happened much more recently.

 

It may turn out that you can't prove that they told you there were no fees to pay, so you will have to pay whatever they charge. However I would contact the shelter and tell them that they're advising people to use an expensive vet, and recommend that they switch to one of the cheaper programs. I would also recommend that they clarify what's written on the certificate so that people don't mistakenly think that the procedure is free.

[KikiW]

I'm curious - did the woman you spoke to when you actually made the appointment also confirm that there were no additional fees? Or is it only the girl you spoke to months ago who said there were no fees? It would be considerably more difficult to prove that some girl told you months ago that there were no additional fees, especially if you don't recall her name. But if the woman who actually made the appointment said the same thing, then you might be able to identify her and have the vet question her, as it happened much more recently.

 

She did not confirm that there were no fees, but neither did she ask "are you aware of the fee scale?" Since I had been told there was no fee, I didn't ask, and that would have been the second point at which they should have made me aware of fees. The third point would have been when I actually brought him in for his appointment.

 

From what I am aware, vets are supposed to disclose these kinds of figures. I didn't feel the need to ask for a written quote, nor did I expect to receive one because I had been led to believe there was no charge. And while I understand not receiving a written quote for other vet visits (such as checkups or emergencies), this was an elective procedure, and since I was getting figures of $65 up to $450, I would have been outraged to be handed a bill for $450 AFTER the procedure was done, not having been told previously.

[Eeyore79]

She did not confirm that there were no fees, but neither did she ask "are you aware of the fee scale?"

 

If you request a service or product, it's assumed you know there will be a fee. You can't walk into a bar and order drinks, and then complain when they give you the check because they didn't inform you of their drinks prices before you ordered. Any reasonable person would be expected to know that drinks aren't free - if you order them you'll have to pay for them. You can't get free drinks simply by saying "Well you didn't tell me how much the drinks cost and I assumed they were free, so I'm not paying."

 

The same applies in this situation. Just because the vet didn't inform you of their prices, that doesn't mean their services are free. A lawyer would argue that it's unreasonable of you to expect to receive services for free, and you can't refuse to pay simply because you weren't given prices in advance.

 

The only argument you have is that this girl on the phone told you there would be nothing to pay, and it's virtually impossible to prove she said that, especially if you don't even know her name. Yes, they should waive the fees because a member of staff told you that the service was free... but from a legal standpoint I don't think you can win, because you can't prove that she said that. Sorry

[KikiW]

Your drink analogy makes no sense - the restaurants I go to have menus with pricing on it, so you know ahead of time that your Mai Tai is going to be $5, or $7 or $10. I can then make an informed decision as to whether or not to get the Mai Tai.

 

As for the person on the phone, I have spoken with 2 women, one being a chipper young lady and one being and older, more serious woman. I spoke to the chipper girl on the phone first, and she seemed to be the same one who brought my pup out to me then wandered off. I am pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to narrow down who I could have spoken with, however like I said, the owner has yet to contact me despite repeated requests. And again, I would offer to pay a portion similar to what I would have paid the other organizations, but the owner has yet to contact me despite repeated requests. I am not looking to get something for nothing, but from start to finish there was a huge lack of communication on their part, and my attempts to work it out are being ignored.

[carhill]

OP, did you sign a work order, invoice or other paperwork authorizing treatment? If so, read that paperwork. If not, they can't prove they provided treatment authorized by you. You did say they copied the animal's medical records, but that in and of itself is not proof of treatment nor your acceptance of it.

 

Bottom line, and I've been in court on such matters, if they can't prove you authorized treatment at the price that they're billing you, you have a good chance in front of a judge. Businesses can't just make up prices after the fact and harass people into paying them.

[KikiW]

I signed an authorization to have the procedure done but there was definitely NO price listed on the authorization.

[carhill]

Do you have a copy of that authorization? Also, did you sign anything when picking up your animal? If yes, do you have a copy of that?

[Eeyore79]

Your drink analogy makes no sense - the restaurants I go to have menus with pricing on it, so you know ahead of time that your Mai Tai is going to be $5, or $7 or $10. I can then make an informed decision as to whether or not to get the Mai Tai.

What, you never walked into a bar with your friends and said "Gimme a beer" without knowing the exact price? I'm sure pretty much everyone has done that at some point, assuming it'll cost a few bucks... and I'm sure most people have also experienced the situation where the beer turns out to cost more than you expected and you still have to pay for it.

 

Anyway, my original point still stands: not knowing the price doesn't mean that something is free. If you don't ask the price and it turns out to cost more than you expected, that's your own fault. In this case, you authorized the treatment so they can reasonably expect you to pay for it. You had nothing in writing stating that the price was $0, and verbal confirmation from some receptionist (or whatever she was) counts for squat, especially since you can't prove that she said it.

 

I genuinely believe that you were led to believe that the treatment was free, and were surprised to receive a bill. I'm just pointing out that in court, saying "But I thought it was free?" won't get you out of paying the bill, especially since you have no evidence to show that you were led to believe it was free.

[KikiW]

Do you have a copy of that authorization? Also, did you sign anything when picking up your animal? If yes, do you have a copy of that?

 

No they gave me absolutely nothing. But I know there was no price on the authorization to have the procedure done so any attempt to handwrite something in after the fact would be obvious. And no, I signed nothing when I picked up the pup, nor did they give me any aftercare instructions - she just said "he's good to go!" and wandered off.

[KikiW]

What, you never walked into a bar with your friends and said "Gimme a beer" without knowing the exact price? I'm sure pretty much everyone has done that at some point, assuming it'll cost a few bucks... and I'm sure most people have also experienced the situation where the beer turns out to cost more than you expected and you still have to pay for it.

 

Anyway, my original point still stands: not knowing the price doesn't mean that something is free. If you don't ask the price and it turns out to cost more than you expected, that's your own fault. In this case, you authorized the treatment so they can reasonably expect you to pay for it. You had nothing in writing stating that the price was $0, and verbal confirmation from some receptionist (or whatever she was) counts for squat, especially since you can't prove that she said it.

 

I genuinely believe that you were led to believe that the treatment was free, and were surprised to receive a bill. I'm just pointing out that in court, saying "But I thought it was free?" won't get you out of paying the bill, especially since you have no evidence to show that you were led to believe it was free.

 

Perhaps I just don't frequent those kinds of places. However, if I went to an event and asked if the bar was a cash bar or the drinks were included, was told the drinks were included then got a bill for them, I would be seriously angry and challenge it - wouldn't you?

 

And in this case, when I was led to believe one thing, and no one followed up either verbally or in writing, it's your opinion that I should be made to pay the full amount?

[carhill]

I would be in contact with the shelter from which you adopted the animal, since these events started with them, the certificate and the recommended contacts to vets. Build a verifiable trail of events from that point.

 

What do you think is a fair price to pay for this service, based upon the information you gathered?

 

As an anecdote, the cat laying next to me, adopted at our local kill shelter through a pet store which cooperates with them in marketing their animals, cost me 20 bucks to adopt, and that was neutered, with feline vaccinations and micro-chipped. There was a stack of paperwork akin to a real estate transaction that I had to read and sign and I had to pay the 20 bucks in cash. Documented, detailed and fair. That's the way business should be run.

[Art_Critic]

It sounds like a miscommunication...

 

I sit where Carhill does on this right now but honestly..

At this point they let you leave without paying and you were under the impression that there was no payment, so let them come after you in small claims court..but....

 

Did you actually think you were going to get an expensive vet procedure done for FREE ?

 

Do you think they did a bait and switch on you or that there was a miscommunication ?

[carhill]

Another suggestion: Call the vet anonymously (or have a friend do it) and get a quote on the procedure directly from them.

 

If I couldn't build a satisfactory case against them (the lack of signed paperwork in you possession works against you), I'd let it go as far as collections or SMC and then ask them if they're willing to settle. Since the low quote was 65.00, I'd offer them 75.00 and see what they countered with. Personally, I wouldn't go higher than half of the bill, but that's me. I call it the APM fee. If they indeed have earned that title and refuse to negotiate or settle, let them take it all the way to court. Depending on jurisdiction and how the vet is structured, a person from the business could represent it or a lawyer could. This is a really small amount to take to SMC so I doubt they'd go that route.

 

Lesson at business U? Get the numbers up front and sign off on them. Every customer who presents themselves to me is offered a written and signed quote for services. Demand that from any vendor if not offered. No exceptions, not even doctors. I make them pre-qualify routine services and provide an invoiced estimate prior to routine procedures. If they don't like it, I just go to any of the next couple hundred doctors on the insurance list. Everyone has choices

[Eeyore79]

However, if I went to an event and asked if the bar was a cash bar or the drinks were included, was told the drinks were included then got a bill for them, I would be seriously angry and challenge it - wouldn't you?

 

Of course I'd challenge it, and the fair and right outcome would be that I wouldn't have to pay, because it's their fault for telling me the drinks were free when they weren't.

 

Unfortunately the law isn't concerned with what's fair and right. The law is concerned with what can be proved - and if I can't prove that I was told the drinks were free, I'll have to pay for them.

 

The way it works is that there's a rule (paying for drinks) and an exception to the rule (being told the drinks are free on this occasion). If I can't prove the exception, I have to abide by the rule - i.e. if I can't prove I was told the drinks are free, I have to pay for them. Yes, it sucks and it's unfair, but that's how the law works.

[KikiW]

It sounds like a miscommunication...

 

I sit where Carhill does on this right now but honestly..

At this point they let you leave without paying and you were under the impression that there was no payment, so let them come after you in small claims court..but....

 

Did you actually think you were going to get an expensive vet procedure done for FREE ?

 

Do you think they did a bait and switch on you or that there was a miscommunication ?

 

When she told me there was no other fees, the only thing I could think of was that the deal they had with the shelter was to reduce their charges and the shelter would pick up the rest as a community thing to help get more animals spayed and neutered. The state I live in actually has a program where you can get your new adopted pet fixed for only $20, but you have to have adopted from one of their 10 or so approved shelters (I didn't adopt from one of them or certainly would have gone that route). If there was a program existing that did it for as low as $20, I was surprised but didn't think it was impossible for a free program to be out there.

 

No I honestly don't believe they baited and switched - I think I talked to a dingbat first who gave me the wrong information, and then I talked to someone else who did not present their fees like they should have for this kind of thing. It would easily have been rectified if she just said "I just want to make sure you know our fee scale for neutering..." OR if she had given me a written estimate when I arrived. I truly think it was their failure to properly inform me, which is why I have a problem paying this bill.

[KikiW]

Another suggestion: Call the vet anonymously (or have a friend do it) and get a quote on the procedure directly from them.

 

If I couldn't build a satisfactory case against them (the lack of signed paperwork in you possession works against you), I'd let it go as far as collections or SMC and then ask them if they're willing to settle. Since the low quote was 65.00, I'd offer them 75.00 and see what they countered with. Personally, I wouldn't go higher than half of the bill, but that's me. I call it the APM fee. If they indeed have earned that title and refuse to negotiate or settle, let them take it all the way to court. Depending on jurisdiction and how the vet is structured, a person from the business could represent it or a lawyer could. This is a really small amount to take to SMC so I doubt they'd go that route.

 

Lesson at business U? Get the numbers up front and sign off on them. Every customer who presents themselves to me is offered a written and signed quote for services. Demand that from any vendor if not offered. No exceptions, not even doctors. I make them pre-qualify routine services and provide an invoiced estimate prior to routine procedures. If they don't like it, I just go to any of the next couple hundred doctors on the insurance list. Everyone has choices

 

I agree - and I was willing to pay them as much as the second highest quote I got (the $90 quote), but I am not going to just send them a check and hope they stop sending me bills - I wanted to speak to the owner, agree to a fair amount and then have them send me a revised bill I would pay in full. I won't send a dime unless they actually try to communicate back with me in a form other than sending a new "past due" bill.

[sweetjasmine]

As far as I'm aware, it's not standard practice for vets to give a written quote before providing treatment. Having owned dogs my whole life and taken them to the vet numerous times, not once have I received a written quote in advance. It's usually assumed that as I brought the dog in and requested treatment, I will pay the bill. Not having a written quote doesn't mean that you're not liable to pay for something that you requested.

 

Agreed. At the practice I visit, the staff let me know in advance - verbally - how much the spay and neuter procedures would cost, but they generally don't provide written quotes. The only written quote I've ever gotten from them was for an optional blood screen for the female cat prior to anesthetization. They wanted to retain a signed copy of my consent (so they would have my explicit permission to perform the procedure and charge the agreed fee) or my rejection of the extra step (so they wouldn't be liable if the animal reacted poorly to the anesthesia and was injured or killed). Other than that? It was just the staff letting me know. For the female, I used the certificate program, and they let me know up front that it would be $20 plus the cost of medication (and then the extra blood screening, should I opt to have it done).

 

What I find odd is that the practice didn't give you the certificate and let you walk out the door, Kiki. To me, that really does sound like the people on staff screwed it up somehow and are trying to cover their own butts. Whether they gave you the wrong information or simply failed to communicate properly, it sounds like very poor management.

[KikiW]

Of course I'd challenge it, and the fair and right outcome would be that I wouldn't have to pay, because it's their fault for telling me the drinks were free when they weren't.

 

Unfortunately the law isn't concerned with what's fair and right. The law is concerned with what can be proved - and if I can't prove that I was told the drinks were free, I'll have to pay for them.

 

The way it works is that there's a rule (paying for drinks) and an exception to the rule (being told the drinks are free on this occasion). If I can't prove the exception, I have to abide by the rule - i.e. if I can't prove I was told the drinks are free, I have to pay for them. Yes, it sucks and it's unfair, but that's how the law works.

 

Don't you think the onus is on them to prove they informed me of the charge ahead of time, such as a signed quote? Again, this is not an emergency vet visit where my dog was about to die unless they performed life-saving procedures - this was an elective procedure, and one that should have all fees disclosed.

[KikiW]

Agreed. At the practice I visit, the staff let me know in advance - verbally - how much the spay and neuter procedures would cost, but they generally don't provide written quotes. The only written quote I've ever gotten from them was for an optional blood screen for the female cat prior to anesthetization. They wanted to retain a signed copy of my consent (so they would have my explicit permission to perform the procedure and charge the agreed fee) or my rejection of the extra step (so they wouldn't be liable if the animal reacted poorly to the anesthesia and was injured or killed). Other than that? It was just the staff letting me know. For the female, I used the certificate program, and they let me know up front that it would be $20 plus the cost of medication (and then the extra blood screening, should I opt to have it done).

 

What I find odd is that the practice didn't give you the certificate and let you walk out the door, Kiki. To me, that really does sound like the people on staff screwed it up somehow and are trying to cover their own butts. Whether they gave you the wrong information or simply failed to communicate properly, it sounds like very poor management.

 

The thing that gets my gall is that I was in the parking lot, literally in the parking spot directly outside the front door, which was opened at least once by another client (and I could see the girl back at the front desk) for several minutes. My husband was worried about the dog and so I took a couple of pictures with my phone to text him, and I have an older iPhone 3G which takes a freakin year and a half to do anything. At any time she could have poked her head out the door and flagged me down. So I agree that this indicates poor management, and just further illustrates how I could have been minsinformed/left uninformed until after the procedure was done.

[hotgurl]

It sounds like a miscommunication...

 

I sit where Carhill does on this right now but honestly..

At this point they let you leave without paying and you were under the impression that there was no payment, so let them come after you in small claims court..but....

 

Did you actually think you were going to get an expensive vet procedure done for FREE ?

 

Do you think they did a bait and switch on you or that there was a miscommunication ?

 

yes I would expect it for free. She bought the animal with the understanding that is was to be spayed. She had to pick up the animal early and got a voucher.

 

this is not an uncommon practice for shelter. They have a rule all animals need to be fixed. generally the animals has the shots and are fixed before you pick them up. But sometimes in cases where the animals are too young you are given a voucher to go to the vet and get the procedure. I have actually delt with this. and you do pay for it. It is part of the fee you pay for the animal.

 

they also have free spay.neuter clinics for stays and reduced fee clinics for lower income people.

[Art_Critic]

yes I would expect it for free. She bought the animal with the understanding that is was to be spayed. She had to pick up the animal early and got a voucher.

this is not an uncommon practice for shelter.

 

Then it does sound like they were doing a bait and switch. thanks HG..