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Secretely recording business conversations - can they be used in court?


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See the title.

 

Say you are in a business meeting where someone is being abusive to you and you record it. Can you use the recording as evidence?

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Not without the other person knowing that you were recording it in the first place.

 

Inadmissable I think it's called.

 

It's like when you phone a call centre, you are advised that some calls are recorded/monitored for training/quality assurance purposes. Same goes for general Joe Public.

 

I could be totally wrong, but as far as I know if you're wanting to use a recording as evidence everyone needs to know that you are recording the conversation/meeting.

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Check your state statutes about the legality of recording open forum meetings. Many states have varying laws.

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Not without the other person knowing that you were recording it in the first place.

 

Inadmissable I think it's called.

 

People always say that, but it's a matter for the judge's/tribunal's discretion whether or not to admit a covertly recorded conversation as evidence. In a tribunal, it would likely be admissible provided it was deemed to be relevant evidence. That's the situation in the UK as regards employment matters, at least. Don't know about Australia, which is where the OP is based.

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It would depend on your national and local laws. In many U.S. states, the person at least has to know that he may be recorded in situations that occur on private property or when using telephone or electronic equipment. At the very least, it's not automatic that you would be able to do that. Check with an attorney.

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I am not American but from what I understand it totally depends on what state you are in.

 

I do remember hearing something once about recordings in some states being legal as long as ONE of the parties involved in the conversation was aware of the fact it was being recorded (as in, you couldn't secretly tape a conversation between two unsuspecting people, but you could record a convo you had with someone else, without that someone knowing). But I don't know what state that was in.

 

Definitely check the laws specific to your state. Maybe you could ask someone at Legal Aid or something... or even a local law school.

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That's tricky. When I tape sessions with patients I have to have them sign a confidentiality waver. As far as business meetings go, I think the same rules apply, however if the other party knows they are being taped, chances are they aren't going to say anything that would incriminate themselves (unless they're an idiot).

 

I would speak to someone higher up about something like this and see what company policy is and what they suggest before trying to tape anything.

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Thanks for the info.

 

Well, I checked the laws in my state in Australia and it is actually OK to do this as long as at least one party is aware of being recorded. As I would be potentially recording myself and another person - this can work.

 

It's all my back up plan in case I end up being fired. I fully intend to sue in that case and will quietly gather evidence in the meantime.

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Thanks for the info.

 

Well, I checked the laws in my state in Australia and it is actually OK to do this as long as at least one party is aware of being recorded. As I would be potentially recording myself and another person - this can work.

 

It's all my back up plan in case I end up being fired. I fully intend to sue in that case and will quietly gather evidence in the meantime.

 

Why are you doing this? I thought everything was perfect at your job and you gave a glowing presentation that your boss praised?? Why stir up drama??

 

You might have a hard time proving the authenticity of the recording, which would then make it inadmissible.

 

Asking legal questions on a predominately US site about Australian law isn't wise, IMO.

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See the title.

 

Say you are in a business meeting where someone is being abusive to you and you record it. Can you use the recording as evidence?

 

But has anybody at work actually been abusive to you? OK so the relationship with your boss is not as good as it was but that does not mean it is abusive. Also you said in your other thread that your boss said that at times you are not particularly productive/motivated (not sure of how you worded it) which is something you actually said was the case only a few weeks ago.

 

If you are concerned about being fired, how about making sure your work performance improves. Take positive action instead of such an adversarial approach as making secret recordings of colleagues.

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IME of 7 years of employment litigation, when an employee spends time while employed collecting evidence like this, it usually backfires on them. It impacts their credibility, as it appears they were trying to set up their employer, particularly when the evidence collected has to be twisted to fit the employee's story, all while the employee's performance is poor.

 

So, I'd spend less time worrying about collecting evidence, and more time increasing your performance and looking for a new job if you're really that miserable there.

 

Also, employees who sue tend to be avoided like the black plague by future employers.

 

Just something to think about.

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I feel that it may be too late for me to improve my performance now - although I plan to be working on that.

 

I think that my days at that place are numbered and I do not feel like I have been treated fairly at all.

 

The head of our department has been making inappropriate sexual comments to me ever since I started working there. I want to record him and go down that track if I am fired. I won't even involve my boss as I feel that I have much stronger case with the head of the department.

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Have you got a journal of what he has said to you since you started there?

 

Work is work is work. My work is driving me nuts right now, but its a serious case of end of year itis and I haven't had much time off this year.

Every job has its little foibles that if you stay in it long enough will p*** you off.

 

If this guy HAS made inappropriate comments to you, why didn't you deal with it when it first occurred?

It sounds like you want out but you want to go out in a blaze of glory and stick two fingers up at all of them, which may feel good in the short term, but in the long term it could seriously hurt your career.

 

My assistant last year was a very good assistant in some ways.

She was great at her job, very organised, very efficient and she was very proactive.

Unfortunately for her, she thrived on drama, caused huge upsets between other members of staff, thought everyone was out to get her and brought her personal life to work. She was also terrible at taking criticism.

 

She ended up leaving while I was on maternity leave over some petty drama or other with another staff member, and the relief once she had gone was palpable.

 

She has now been applying for other jobs, and I am one of her referees.

I have to be honest, a couple of times they have asked me if we would give her another job, and I said no. That amount of drama outweighed her abilities.

 

Something to think about.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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I feel that it may be too late for me to improve my performance now - although I plan to be working on that.

 

I think that my days at that place are numbered and I do not feel like I have been treated fairly at all.

 

The head of our department has been making inappropriate sexual comments to me ever since I started working there. I want to record him and go down that track if I am fired. I won't even involve my boss as I feel that I have much stronger case with the head of the department.

 

Woah. I agree with Star and sb129. You're setting yourself up to look really bad here....and for all kinds of reasons.

 

You want to go down that track of claiming sexual harassment if you're fired?? If somebody is making comments you consider inappropriate, you should say to them something along the lines of "look, I realise you probably don't mean any harm but I'm not comfortable with comments like that." I've done it before. It's not that difficult. You might get one of those overblown, taking-the-piss-style apologies, but I think sometimes they're just a cover for embarrassment and best ignored. If it doesn't stop after you've spoken directly with the person, then maybe (if you're really feeling troubled by it) it's time to take it further.

 

However, what you're talking about here seems to involve letting these inappropriate comments go unless you get fired...in which case you'll seize them as bargaining chips. Very bad idea. All that'll happen is that people will ask "if you had a problem, why didn't you raise it and give the company an opportunity to address it?"

 

It sounds to me as though you might be under a lot of stress just now, OG, and aren't quite thinking straight.

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However, what you're talking about here seems to involve letting these inappropriate comments go unless you get fired...in which case you'll seize them as bargaining chips. Very bad idea. All that'll happen is that people will ask "if you had a problem, why didn't you raise it and give the company an opportunity to address it?"

 

Exactly. It's almost playground level of "he said, she said"

 

If someone attempted to use a sexual harassment case like this, it would just be seen as someone trying to find a way out of the mess they are already in.

 

If you want to be seen as a professional woman in the work place then act like one.

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The head of our department has been making inappropriate sexual comments to me ever since I started working there. I want to record him and go down that track if I am fired. I won't even involve my boss as I feel that I have much stronger case with the head of the department.

 

If you haven't reported this alleged sexual harassment to HR, the fact he's doing it is of no good to you in a lawsuit for being fired for poor performance. None. Zip.

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Actually, I can't be fired for poor performance right now as my current performance is good. My boss refered to my performance for a few months last year when I had to take lot of time off due to my dad being ill.

 

However, given the strained relationship with my boss - he may be looking for any possible angle to fire me. He can always find one. All my performance reviews have been glowing. I was never even given a warning. During those few months of poor performance - noone ever spoke to me about it.

 

What I write here are just options I am considering. I am not going to actually follow through with any of those things. But I do feel like I have to do SOMETHING if I get fired.

 

This is the gist of situation and this is what really bothers me: during the years when I had a crush on my boss and when he heavily flirted with me - I was praised for lifting my little finger and he basically gladly did anything for me. His meetings and responses to my e-mails etc were instant. I am aware that I was given too much attention and I feel that was unprofessional from his side. I take responsibility for flirting with him but he as my superior shouldn't have upped the flirting and he shouldn't have treated me better than other staff.

 

For a year to 6 months ago, I have stopped having crush on him. Now that flirting is off the table, he has lost all interest in responding to my e-mails at all (I am talking week wait for a simple response when I have a tight deadline or even no response at all). He finds excuses to not meet with me. He is now treating me worse than any other memeber of our team and I am not even getting minimum respect. Conditions have become unworkable for me.

 

However, if I ever told anyone this, it would be laughable. I feel that his behavior is completely and utterly unprofessional. I can't just quitely go if he fires me now that he has lost sexual interest in me. I need to cause him some annoyance at least even if I ultimately end up losing the case.

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As for causing drama, I get along with all my other co-workers. Even the co-worker I complained about on here I am very polite to. I am even polite to the pervert head of department.

 

Basically, most of my co-workers love me and invite to things like weddings, bdays, after work drinks etc. I am not the one who causes conflict for the sake of it.

 

The only person that I have ever argued with is my boss.

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What a surprise.

 

That's because you permit the emotional to interfere with your professional.

 

I've said it before:

The workplace is no place to function on emotions.

Can't be done.

 

There is this thing between you that will never go away.

But it's in the past.

Done.

Over.

Finished with.

 

What you need to do now, is erase any form of previous emotional connection to him from your Mind-set.

He's just another bloke.

He's a man, and he's in charge of you.

And you, as an employee, have a responsibility to him, and to respect his position.

 

Do you respect him?

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I can't just quitely go if he fires me now that he has lost sexual interest in me. I need to cause him some annoyance at least even if I ultimately end up losing the case.

 

Fine. You've had at least two lawyers here, possibly more, tell you it's a bad idea. You're now quite openly admitting that you are approaching this with the mindset of a vexatious litigant. Do you know how dim a view courts and tribunals take of vexatious litigants? Rightly so, because raising baseless legal actions against other people is a form of harassment. I realise all this is a sore point, for you - but as TaraMaiden is saying, you need to put your professional hat on here. Stop thinking like a spiteful child.

 

If you feel you have a genuine grievance in that his conduct at work is preventing you from doing your job properly, then of course you have the right to pursue it, but what you're talking about here is very clearly about abusing the legal process specifically to cause stress and annoyance to another person. The fact that causing annoyance, rather than having a grievance addressed and resolved, is your motive demonstrates how unable you've become to examine this situation in a fair and objective way.

Edited by Taramere
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I can't just quitely go if he fires me now that he has lost sexual interest in me. I need to cause him some annoyance at least even if I ultimately end up losing the case.

 

Sounds like you are succeeding at that already.

 

I'm having a lot of difficulty reconciling this new stance of yours with your righteous defense of your drunk dial to your boss to bemoan your dating woes ... a mere 20 days ago!

 

You hold your co-workers to a standard of professional behavior; why don't you apply the same to yourself?

 

Personal accountability is a pretty important thing.

 

As a professional woman, I am personally offended to hear another educated, professional woman accept sexual harassment quietly until making a scene about it is going to further your personal motives in some way.

 

Sexual harassment really happens, it should not be ignored or accepted. If you've been harassed, why has it been fine with you until now? It should not be used as a tool to stick it to people out of venomous spite. It's acceptable - or it is not.

 

OG, you sure post a lot about many little nuances of numerous aspects of your life, including your work life. It's baffling to me that you've been a victim of inappropriate sexual behavior for a protracted period, and you have not mentioned it in any of your threads on LS.

Edited by Mme. Chaucer
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Sigh. I never drank dialed my boss to talk about my dating life.

 

I was supposed to call him to discuss my conference talk at a certain time. I happened to be at home and had a few drinks when I called him. I was depressed about a certain dating situation.

 

STILL MY DATING LIFE WAS NEVER MENTIONED IN THAT PHONE CALL.

 

I hold my drink well and for all we know he had no idea that I was even drunk.

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Fine. You've had at least two lawyers here, possibly more, tell you it's a bad idea. You're now quite openly admitting that you are approaching this with the mindset of a vexatious litigant. Do you know how dim a view courts and tribunals take of vexatious litigants? Rightly so, because raising baseless legal actions against other people is a form of harassment. I realise all this is a sore point, for you - but as TaraMaiden is saying, you need to put your professional hat on here. Stop thinking like a spiteful child.

 

If you feel you have a genuine grievance in that his conduct at work is preventing you from doing your job properly, then of course you have the right to pursue it, but what you're talking about here is very clearly about abusing the legal process specifically to cause stress and annoyance to another person. The fact that causing annoyance, rather than having a grievance addressed and resolved, is your motive demonstrates how unable you've become to examine this situation in a fair and objective way.

 

Tara and Tara thanks for your posts. I do admit that when you mix emotional and professional you can't tell which is which anymore. I take full responsibility there. I made huge error in judgment by letting my emotions be involved.

 

I learned from this though and it won't happen again at another work place.

 

Having said all that though, last few months have been impossible for me to do my best work. This is purely professional point - I had no one to look over my work and provide guidance. He is simply not doing his job. Let's forget the flirting, the crush etc I still need the bare minimum of supervision to be able to perform well. That is what I have been fighting for.

 

P.S. I am willing to accept full responsibility for the period of low performance last year. He should do the same now.

Edited by OceanGirl
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I have a question for you:

 

Given everything I have presented here and in the other thread do you guys think that I will get fired soon? Feel free to be brutally honest.

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Actually, I can't be fired for poor performance right now as my current performance is good.

 

Wrong.

 

But I do feel like I have to do SOMETHING if I get fired.

 

Right, it's called get another job, not file a baseless lawsuit.

 

If you're fired, it's NOT because you won't have sex with him (quid pro quo sexual harassment), and it's not because you complained about it [because you haven't] and were retaliated against (retaliation/wrongful termination). If you fail to take reasonable steps to report/inform your employer of harassment, they'd have a complete defense against your claims. You'd have NO CASE for sexual harassment under these circumstances.

 

Conditions have become unworkable for me.

 

I think that's a GROSS exaggeration. If presented to a jury of your peers, quite frankly, this entire fact pattern would get laughed out of court, even in employee-friendly California, the most sexual harassment-lawsuit happy state in the union.

 

However, if I ever told anyone this, it would be laughable. I feel that his behavior is completely and utterly unprofessional. I can't just quitely go if he fires me now that he has lost sexual interest in me. I need to cause him some annoyance at least even if I ultimately end up losing the case.

 

You're absolutely right, it would be laughable.

 

Let's be honest here, OG. Your BOSS has done nothing wrong here. So he took too long to respond to your emails about your talk. Okay, so? You're just pissed that he's no longer interested in you sexually. Not only do you validate yourself as a dateable woman by having a man show sexual interest in you, but apparently you value yourself as an employee by the same standard.

 

Taramere is SPOT ON. I couldn't have said it better:

 

Fine. You've had at least two lawyers here, possibly more, tell you it's a bad idea. You're now quite openly admitting that you are approaching this with the mindset of a vexatious litigant. Do you know how dim a view courts and tribunals take of vexatious litigants? Rightly so, because raising baseless legal actions against other people is a form of harassment. I realise all this is a sore point, for you - but as TaraMaiden is saying, you need to put your professional hat on here. Stop thinking like a spiteful child.

 

If you feel you have a genuine grievance in that his conduct at work is preventing you from doing your job properly, then of course you have the right to pursue it, but what you're talking about here is very clearly about abusing the legal process specifically to cause stress and annoyance to another person. The fact that causing annoyance, rather than having a grievance addressed and resolved, is your motive demonstrates how unable you've become to examine this situation in a fair and objective way.

 

The proof is in the pudding, OG. Your ego is bruised because he's not interested anymore, and you just want to remind him of your existence with a lawsuit.

 

Bad, bad idea. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

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