Do your looks have a bearing on your career progression?

[Carpetrider]

Recently I came across this article in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/24/fashion/24skin.html?pagewanted=all

 

From your personal experience can you relate to some of the points raised in the article?

 

For myself, I believe so from what I have witnessed. For example, if you have two equally competent persons for a promotion, the person with the better presentable front generally gets the nod. Sad, but true.

[Mary3]

I didn't click on your link. I just wanted to give you my honest answer for your basic question.

 

Looks seem to play a very important role... whether hiring managers and Society admits to it or not. If you are obese you are less likely to get front positions for fear the clients will find it distasteful . If you are excessively fugly also the same applies.

 

If you are very attractive you are likely ( mostly ) more social , have a bigger circle of beautiful people surrounding you and its been shown attractive people seem to get the job first.

 

2 examples : Suzy is 5 foot 4 and weighs in a 340 lbs , her hair is overdyed and her teeth are stained yellow brown.

 

Melissa is 5 foot 7 , 124 lbs , long longs and blonde hair and has a gorgeous Porcelian smile.

 

Who might you hire ?

[lindya]

I think that women who have the edge in the workplace tend to be those who look in their 30s and 40s. Young enough to have a lot of working years left in them, old enough to have a decent bit of professional and life experience.

 

As far as how attractive a woman is goes...I think good grooming and a warm, smiling expression are probably greater assets than natural beauty. I've a feeling some men would express disagreement with that (if for no reason other than to do the usual confidence knocking exercise). In practice I've seen some very attractive women get a bad reaction - personally and professionally - because they had a cold or arrogant appearance.

 

For purely romantic purposes, I'd love to be 8+ out of 10 physically, but for professional purposes I think it's far more useful to be average with the ability to project a bit of warmth and personality. Attractive enough that people want to speak to you, but not so attractive that it's distracting or threatening to them.

[sb129]

I agree with Lindya, I think "beauty" and "appearance" are two separate entities. Both contribute to how you "look", but you can look professional without being beautiful.

 

In my job, I need to look clean and tidy, as a scruffy, unwashed looking health professional doesn't promote trust.

I also think that dentists have a duty to their patients to practice what they preach, and look after their own teeth- you wouldn't go to a hairdresser with bad hair, so a dentist with bad teeth promotes poor professionalism IMO. Although there ARE alot out there with terrible teeth.

 

As long as someone is clean, tidy, well groomed (not over groomed- that would put me off hiring someone actually) and has the appropriate experience/ qualifications, i would consider hiring them.

[lindya]

I agree with Lindya, I think "beauty" and "appearance" are two separate entities. Both contribute to how you "look", but you can look professional without being beautiful.

 

You're so much more succinct than I. Can I hire you as my life editor?

[SpanksTheMonkey]

Yes it dose and yes I have experienced it I was working in a restaurant and one manager told me I would be working the door greeting people one night.

 

The day before I was told no that they had some one else. Now I have a nice/pretty face good friendly personality.

 

I keep myself presentable at all times I dress nice BUT I'm over weight. The one they put up there that night looked like Barbie pretty much and had the rotten attitude to match.

 

I got the dish washing instead while Barbie on PMS got the cushy job that payed more! Yes it happens more often then not and at every level not just corporate/office work.

[sb129]

You're so much more succinct than I. Can I hire you as my life editor?

 

Didn't you know that imitation is the highest form of flattery?

I usually only paraphrase what you have said, parrot style... if you want someone as your life editor who you know will agree with you most of the time, i'm your girl.

 

Of course looks have a bearing on lots of jobs. Its a fact of life, and not a new one.

Unfortunately, the industry in which spanksthemonkey works is one of the ones where superficial 'attractiveness' can matter.

 

My job isn't concerned with 'attractiveness', but if one is quite overweight, the physical part of my job could be quite difficult IMO. I know most female dentists who get pregnant end up stopping work at about 7months, because otherwise you end up rubbing your boobs and your belly all over someone when you are doing upper left tooth extractions. Some men might like this, but.....

 

There are other more practical, less superficial reasons why ones physical shape and therefore appearace can influence your ability to do a job.

 

A jockey for example can't weight more than a certain amount when racing. Jobs that involve physical labour suit people who are more able to cope with that kind of work. There are loads of examples.

[SpanksTheMonkey]

Of course looks have a bearing on lots of jobs. Its a fact of life, and not a new one.

Unfortunately, the industry in which spanksthemonkey works is one of the ones where superficial 'attractiveness' can matter.

 

.

Worked not any more thank god I see were your coming from but then again whos to say that over weight people cant be as attractive?

 

I'm not trying to be the poster girl for over weight people I myself want to lose some. But I cant help but think some times people think of all of us as slobbering smelly slobs which just isn't true.

 

Its more a stereo typical mind set I think that got that girl that job over me that night but oh well. I agree tho some jobs just are suited for some people more then others good point.

[stillafool]

I read the article and can't believe Rush made that comment about Hillary aging in the White House. Why isn't someone making fun of how Fred Thompson looks like a hound dog? This constant prejudice against women aging has really gotten out of hand. I wish women wouldn't feed into it. I've seen women more prejudice against other women than men. No wonder this country is where it is, if Corporations are trying to hire the best looking women instead of the most qualified for the job. I hope a woman does get to be President so maybe this trend will reverse.

 

If I hire a lawyer, doctor or any other professional who isn't in the fashion industry, I am put off if they are too made up. If they are naturally good looking but not all made up I feel more comfortable with them. Maybe that's reverse descrimination, I don't know. But, I feel like a botoxed, too much makeup, hair, and clothes may not do as good a job because they have too many beauty 'upkeep' appointments.

 

I just think it's unfair for this to happen to women. Why don't men have these problems?

[sb129]

Worked not any more thank god I see were your coming from but then again whos to say that over weight people cant be as attractive?

 

I'm not trying to be the poster girl for over weight people I myself want to lose some. But I cant help but think some times people think of all of us as slobbering smelly slobs which just isn't true.

 

Its more a stereo typical mind set I think that got that girl that job over me that night but oh well. I agree tho some jobs just are suited for some people more then others good point.

 

I 100% agree with you.

I personally think that some overweight people can be very attractive-

but as you say, its the stereotypical mindset that focuses on "superficial attractiveness", and alot of what is percieved to be "attractive" is based on what we are fed by the media machine.

 

In the hospitality industry, appearances can matter- especially in some establishments who pride themselves on having the "elite" as clientele.

 

Its utter BS and I hate it, but its there. You can't ignore it. I am not overweight, and I am moderately attractive, but to some girls I am considered "lazy" because I let my fiance see me without makeup on (in fact I even leave the house without it on sometimes ), I don't wear designer labels, I don't show off yards of T&A.

That in itself would be enough to deny me entry into some clubs in London.

 

My accent, bank balance and lack of private education would be enough to deny me entry into others. Others wouldn't let me in because I am white.

 

Luckily I don't WANT to go to them.... but just saying- you are subject to prejudice whatever you look like, whatever you do for a job, etc etc.

[allina]

I think looks have a large impact on career progression, I think this is especially true in metropolitan area where businesses want to have a certain image.

 

I have advanced at work over two women who have been there longer and had more experience. Although I was qualified for the advancement I feel like the fact that i fit the "image" of the company helped.

[sb129]

I think looks have a large impact on career progression, I think this is especially true in metropolitan area where businesses want to have a certain image.

 

I have advanced at work over two women who have been there longer and had more experience. Although I was qualified for the advancement I feel like the fact that i fit the "image" of the company helped.

 

I admire the fact that you freely admit that. I also agree that lots of companies want to promote certain images, as image is important in many industries.

 

As I said before, its a fact of life.... and not a new one.

[blind_otter]

I just think it's unfair for this to happen to women. Why don't men have these problems?

 

I was just talking to someone about how G.W. looks haggard. And Bill did, too, after his stint. Being president sucks the life out of you.

[Patch1]

We have never hired anyone based on appearance, skill/experience will always win that race...However..

 

I have seen what can happen to potential new business if the person that is representing your company is not pleasing to the person who would make that decision. I have learned that positioning the right person in each situation can make the outcome successful.

 

After the initial 30 seconds of the meeting, the candidate with the right personality will surface and your choice will be easy.

 

Will looks get you further? more than likely but they wont take you to the end if the skill and personality is not there. Any company that is willing to take that risk will ultimately pay the price for a poor decision.

 

My initial take on somebody who is well groomed and physically appears healthy, tells me that this person is in control of their environment...They have to earn the rest of the interview with what they bring.

Edited January 25, 2008 by Patch1

[Carpetrider]

Interesting points made thus far. One industry where discrimnatory hiring practices are rampant is the fashion industry.

[Carpetrider]

I read the article and can't believe Rush made that comment about Hillary aging in the White House.

 

That's because Rush is a jerk in the finest sense.

[HokeyReligions]

I didn't read the article but I have several first-hand experiences in this.

 

I have always been a large woman. I was a large child. I am big boned and my family is naturally large. I'm not what some consider 'sloppy fat' but I am large. It doesn't bother me because I'm healthy - although even doctors at first look jump to the conclusion that I have high cholestrol and may be diabetic. I did recently - well, over four months, lose 65 pounds and have been keeping it off. Now, 65 pounds to me is two dress sizes. 65 pounds to a smaller framed person could be 10 dress sizes. I know this because a friend of mine in highschool and I used to share clothes. I lost 40 pounds then and she lost 40 pounds. I went down one size she went down four. Different builds.

 

Anyway, my first recognition of the effect of my looks on my jobs was about 20 years ago. I had been looking for a new job and found one where I interviewed over the phone several times. All my references and work history checked ou. The job was via a head-hunter and I interviewed with them over the phone too.

 

The company was ready to hire me and all I had to do was come to the headhunter's office and fill out some forms then go to the job and meet the people and learn about the company.

 

It was after work and the headhunter was waiting for me. I knocked on the door and she asked if it was me then told me to come in. She was on the phone in another room. I came in, no one else was in the office and she stepped out of the room she was in. She stopped dead in her tracks and I swear the color drained from her face. "YOU'RE Hokey!?" and I said yes and she started fumbling for words and stopped looking directly at me. She was a tiny little woman - maybe 5'3" and all of 85 pounds. I mean a small woman. I'm 5'6" and wore a size 14/16. I was in a business suit. Well groomed and clean. Anyway, she fumbled and mumbled and came up with a lame excuse that she had just got off the phone with the client and they had decided not to hire me, uh, anyone just now. That was BS and we both knew it. She said thank you and she'd call me if anything came up again. Needless to say, I never heard from her again.

 

I experienced several things like that - both with headhunters, temporaries, and direct interviews.

 

The best jobs I've ever had were thru temporary agencies that actually would send me out and their client had no choice but to keep me for a short period and when they got to know me and see my work, they hired me.

 

I have had to fight to get leadership positions as well because of the same narrow minded ignorance. What was that old song? Big Dumb and Stupid or something like that. The attitude is that if large people were smart, they wouldn't be large.

 

On the other side of the table, I was part of a panel interview. I needed a new receptionist-office manager, but I was only one of four people to interview prospectives. After each interview we would discuss the candidates. One person always had something negative to say about any black candidates, but two of the other people found some reason to rule out the heavy people. They were careful about it because they wouldn't always look me in the eye. They were trying not to offend me, but I knew the score. The choice came down to two people. A cute young blond in her 20's, wearing a designer dress in a pink or lavender dress and high heels, and an average looking woman, a little pudgy, with short dark hair and a navy blue suit and medium heels. Even though she reported to me, I did not have the last say in who to hire. I had to hire the blond. She lasted a few months then quit - which I knew she would when she was hired because she admitted that she was only staying in town for a few months! I left there, but they've gone thru many people since I left.

 

Whenever you see the words "front office appearance" as part of the requirement for a job it means "attractive" according to popular opinion.

 

Would I have wanted an unkempt person as a receptionist? No. I wouldn't hire someone who didn't brush their teeth or hair, or who didn't care enough to clean up their best for an interview - but I don't rule out someone who wears WalMart suits and no makeup either.

 

That's my experience.

[chilatte]

I definitely will be discriminated against based on my looks for certain careers. I am the opposite of a lot of women. I am extremely petite and little. I am 28 and most people don't believe it and think I am a teenager. I will never have a career that I would make a lot of money at because no one will ever take me serious as an adult.

[Fun2BMe]

I would say in my professional life my looks are 85% important and my brains/skills/experience/personality 15%, so I have no guilt investing in youth and looks because that's what pays my bills, and that book is worth purchasing in case there's something I don't already know worth knowing in it.

[Mary3]

As an example : I knew a man who weighed around 250 lbs ( large belly, double chin ) about 5'11 who had gotten his college degree and was ready to go out into the world for his field.

Many listings posted and he went to each interview but was never given a reason why he could not be hired. He saturated the entire state but could not find work.

He went outside of the state and was still getting rejections. His position was needed badly but still rejections. He finally got hired but was payed $12,000 year less then what he should have made.

 

I guess they really needed someone and they hired ( him ) this new graduate but at substantially lower starting pay.

[lindya]

Unless they're from very wealthy families, most professionals have probably done vacational work where they had to try, as middle class students, to fit into working class environments. Back when I had to do that, I think there was more of a class divide than there is now. Middle class, female students were a source of great sexual interest and intrigue to men in those environments - and that, combined with other factors (eg not having much in common...communication problems...) could cause real friction with the permanent female workers.

 

A lot of working class girls can be very pretty, but they often age early....and badly. The older version was what I frequently found myself stuck with during those periods of vacational work. Women who were hardened by life, and who comforted themselves by getting fat on junk food and relishing the opportunity to make life a temporary hell for young female students who had some kind of a future. Finding any opportunity at all to undermine them and knock their confidence.

 

If a woman walks into my office looking for a job and her appearance triggers memories of someone I've had a nightmare working experience with in the past, then her CV is going to end up in the bin. The fatter, less attractive and more common looking she is, the higher the chance that she'll trigger one of those bad memories. Workplace bullies are rarely the prettiest of creatures. For visualisation purposes, I'm talking about the kind of woman who looks as though she'd be top dog in a woman's prison.

Edited January 26, 2008 by lindya

[Trialbyfire]

I do agree that if you put two people with identical credentials and personability side by side, the more attractive will get hired. On the other hand, there are never identical candidates.

 

People are hired or not, for all kinds of reasons. Polish and charm help a great deal. If your interviewer(s) likes you, you'll get hired, even if you lack a few skills, due to the potential they see in you.

[Carpetrider]

I definitely will be discriminated against based on my looks for certain careers. I am the opposite of a lot of women. I am extremely petite and little. I am 28 and most people don't believe it and think I am a teenager. I will never have a career that I would make a lot of money at because no one will ever take me serious as an adult.

 

I can somewhat relate to your situation indirectly. I knew of someone who had a PhD in Literature. She had this very feminine teenager voice on the telephone. When you meet her in person, she is this lady in her mid-40's. She tells me of the wide range of reactions from men and women alike. Some comical. Some not.

[Carpetrider]

Unless they're from very wealthy families, most professionals have probably done vacational work where they had to try, as middle class students, to fit into working class environments. Back when I had to do that, I think there was more of a class divide than there is now. Middle class, female students were a source of great sexual interest and intrigue to men in those environments - and that, combined with other factors (eg not having much in common...communication problems...) could cause real friction with the permanent female workers.

 

A lot of working class girls can be very pretty, but they often age early....and badly. The older version was what I frequently found myself stuck with during those periods of vacational work. Women who were hardened by life, and who comforted themselves by getting fat on junk food and relishing the opportunity to make life a temporary hell for young female students who had some kind of a future. Finding any opportunity at all to undermine them and knock their confidence.

 

If a woman walks into my office looking for a job and her appearance triggers memories of someone I've had a nightmare working experience with in the past, then her CV is going to end up in the bin. The fatter, less attractive and more common looking she is, the higher the chance that she'll trigger one of those bad memories. Workplace bullies are rarely the prettiest of creatures. For visualisation purposes, I'm talking about the kind of woman who looks as though she'd be top dog in a woman's prison.

 

Interesting.

 

I once worked for a very large corporation. The District Manager was a very large lady. Every thin girl that was hired did not last long. She always rode their ass. And if you were pretty and thin, life was difficult for you. All the supervisors that she promoted were like her--large.

[Carpetrider]

From a male perspective, I know from my working experience, that if there is an attractive new guy in the office, all the women colleagues would go ga ga over him. The other men do then feel somewhat inadequate. I would say the feelings are similar to what most women experience, except to say men rarely verbalise them. The guys would probably say something like "He probably has a large penis" behind his back as an indirect put down.