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Old 19th March 2007, 3:22 PM   #46
ely
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Originally Posted by uplooker80 View Post
Seriously mods, please lock this thread, and if possible, delete it.

I appreciate all the support I've received, and for those who chose to simply lecture without trying to understand what's happening, may you remain so fortunate that this never happens to you.

Today was particularly painful for me, now I feel that I must retreat from this board to solve this on my own.


If anything in life will cost u your faith or your family then the price is too high!!!
I have been in this situation, It is not to lecture you. It is from experience. We do come here for support, so, step up!!! (Mods lock this thread) You seem to give up too easy and that is why you get caught in a situation. You have to face what you are going through. If you want this to be locked and not face what it is said than you will fall...
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Old 23rd March 2007, 1:04 AM   #47
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Guys, I've been through a similar situation to UL80. I'm only just starting to come out the other side of it too. I can honestly say that I would have felt hurt if I had received some of the responses that were posted here.

I know some of you hard-facts-of-life types mean well. But some of this direct advice resembles the kind of misplaced advice that depressed people hear ("snap out of it!"), and that anorexic people receive ("you're too skinny!"). That sort of advice is hurtful when you are going through the torment of unrequited love. I went through more than a year of it at work - a rollercoaster of emotions every day - jealously, elation, heartache, despondency. It nearly destroyed me. It nearly destroyed my marriage.

I know you're probably not reading this, UL80, but there's lots of people here who know what you are going through and wish you strength every day.
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Old 23rd March 2007, 6:51 PM   #48
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Guys, I've been through a similar situation to UL80. I'm only just starting to come out the other side of it too. I can honestly say that I would have felt hurt if I had received some of the responses that were posted here.

I know some of you hard-facts-of-life types mean well. But some of this direct advice resembles the kind of misplaced advice that depressed people hear ("snap out of it!"), and that anorexic people receive ("you're too skinny!"). That sort of advice is hurtful when you are going through the torment of unrequited love. I went through more than a year of it at work - a rollercoaster of emotions every day - jealously, elation, heartache, despondency. It nearly destroyed me. It nearly destroyed my marriage.

I know you're probably not reading this, UL80, but there's lots of people here who know what you are going through and wish you strength every day.
Actually I do come back and look periodically. Thank you so much for the kind words.

I've done a little research on this curse I have, and it looks like she is my "limerent object". The description of limerence fits me almost exactly.

The killer aspect of this is that I work with her, so it's impossible to stay away from her. The added twist is that I have alpha male issues with our boss, and I know exactly what he is thinking about when he chats her up. And yes I know he has every right to talk to her about whatever he wants, but I cannot control this irrational jealousy for a woman I can never have and do not really want.

It's the perfect storm. I have good days and very bad days. The very bad days are when he spends a lot of time with her. I am elated when she says good nite to me. I am thrilled when she e-mail's me a joke. I am crushed when she goes into my boss's office. I think about her just about every waking hour. I'm thankful that I somehow can get some sleep. It's probably only a matter of time before this gets screwed up too. This truly is HELL.

I am continuing to try to rewire myself. What some here may not understand is that these emotions are involuntary. As I originally explained in this thread, I stopped flirting with her once I caught the limerence disease. I do not want to be this way. I am not chasing her. I pay attention to my wife and family. I want this all to end.

If you do not understand what I am saying, then you have never experienced this.

And yes, I know that I am messed up.

Here's a description of limerence I found on the net.

Q: So what's wrong with advice?

DT: Everything if you are dealing with limerence. Since limerence is involuntary and extremely tenacious, to advise a person to do what that person absolutely would love to do but cannot, is not helpful. Ironically, the feedback from readers is that Love and Limerence is helpful in one way at least. They say that it tells them they are not alone in the craziness. It helps to be able to say to yourself that that although caught in a crazy state, it's also a normal state and one in which, when things are going right, produces the most intense joy known to human experience. Limerence means an irrationally overpowering condition. It appears to operate independently of other aspects of the person's character or personality.

Here's the link.http://www.tennov.com/bookr/QnA.html

Last edited by uplooker80; 23rd March 2007 at 8:50 PM..
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Old 24th March 2007, 1:24 AM   #49
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I understand...

Uplooker80 completely what you are going through, and I am not here to judge you, because I am in a similar situation. I am completely and madly in love with my boss and I have never felt this intensely before about any man. I am married and he is married, but we both have morals. The fact that he is respectful of me makes me adore him all the more! Just knowing there are other people out there who are dealing with this does help, and having somewhere to talk about it helps too.
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Old 24th March 2007, 1:40 AM   #50
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Don't leave...

this board Uplooker80! Just don't read the messages that you don't get any help from. Some of us can relate to your posts, and we need to vent along with you. I too was worried if I reveal too much I would get found out, but this is a big world and I don't think that is likely! I became friends with the wife of my boss, and I thought that would help ease my feelings for him. But unfortunately, it has just added jealousy into the mix. He has a casual way of telling people he loves them, but with me he has said more, which I don't want to tell here for fear of identifying myself! He has said though that if we were free he'd make a move on me. Don't give up on this thread just because of a few people. Unlike you, I am very attracted to my boss in every way, and even though I have always looked down on people who have affairs, I understand how tempting it can be!
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Old 24th March 2007, 3:02 AM   #51
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Lightbulb The perfect storm

Quote:
Originally Posted by uplooker80 View Post
And yes, I know that I am messed up.

Here's a description of limerence I found on the net.

Q: So what's wrong with advice?

DT: Everything if you are dealing with limerence. Since limerence is involuntary and extremely tenacious, to advise a person to do what that person absolutely would love to do but cannot, is not helpful. Ironically, the feedback from readers is that Love and Limerence is helpful in one way at least. They say that it tells them they are not alone in the craziness. It helps to be able to say to yourself that that although caught in a crazy state, it's also a normal state and one in which, when things are going right, produces the most intense joy known to human experience. Limerence means an irrationally overpowering condition. It appears to operate independently of other aspects of the person's character or personality.

Here's the link.http://www.tennov.com/bookr/QnA.html

Limerance. I came across that word a few years ago, when I was struggling to work out what the hell was going on when I developed an infatuation for a different co-worker. She was strikingly pretty and I used to sneak looks at her across the office. One day, she moved into the desk opposite me! We started talking and she was so nice. I still remember her pretty eyes. Fortunately for me, she was about to get married, and she took time off work. So I got over her very quickly.

My first girlfriend was a limerant attachment. Yes, another very pretty girl. She took me years and years to get over. My third limerant attachment was to my recent co-worker, which I am somewhat over - and fortunately she has recently left work so I will be able to get over her properly at last.

You'd think being in love would be a good thing, huh? It truly sucks when it is unrequited. It's funny that you used the phrase "perfect storm" - that's the exact same phrase I've used in my journal many times to describe my recent girl. She was like a nuclear bomb in my life - the perfect combination of qualities that played to my emotional desires. My situation was somewhat different to yours - my girl was single, and she actively pursued me. We shared more and more of our inner thoughts over time and eventually the limerance started. I was a goner. I separated from my wife and eventually dated my girl briefly, but I was consumed by guilt and grief.

My girl moved on relatively easily, and we started working on different floors of the building. Still hopelessly attached to her, we maintained a friendship by email and exchanged dozens of emails every day. In time, she made it clear to me that she wasn't going to permit a romantic attachment between us. I went through torment. I loved it when she said goodnight at the end of each day, although that stopped eventually. I loved it when we used to take cigarette breaks together, but they dried up too. I kept trying to re-wire my feelings for her, and whenever I pulled away, she would seemingly have more to do with me, be nicer to me, and then it all started again. She finally left work a week ago and I have accepted that she is out of my life. But guess who called me last night?

During the year, my girl started to have more and more to do with her team leader. He's a big fat slob - bit of a liar too and she knows it - but nonetheless I found myself competing with him for her attention. That was a competition I lost miserably and I was crushed (in her going-away card, he wrote "You are a beacon in an otherwise bleak landscape" - arrrghhh).

I went through a lot of therapy, read several books, did lots of journalling. I did my best when I thought about her faults, her negative points. If I did that long enough, it would knock her off the pedestal I had her on. At one point last year, I re-discovered my anger and had a brief period where I was happy in the knowledge that I had displaced her image from my mind. It only lasted a few days.

Do I like limerance? Ultimately, no. It gives rise to major anxiety in me and this heavily outweighs the positives.

Have I learned anything from limerance? My word yes. The good thing about my recent experience was that it forced me to confront myself - who I am, my shortcomings, my weaknesses, my inner hurts. What I discovered was that part of my vulnerability to limerance arises from my lack of internal validation. I recently read a fantastic book called No More Mr. Nice Guy (by Robert Glover), which really hit the nail on the head.

Another thing I've learned about myself through all of this is that there is a fairly complex psychology going on - I seek validation through the sexual attentions of attractive women. That doesn't mean I have sex with them. In fact, I've never had a sexual affair, never come close to one (this recent girl was my one and only emotional affair though).

Can you dismantle a limerant attachment? I know Tennov said it is involuntary and chemical, but I think we sustain it through our thoughts. I honestly believe it has a lot in common with depression i.e. it is manifested by thoughts and results in a chemical change. I think we have the power to change these thoughts, even though limerance does tend to have a tenacious grip on us. NC is the very best approach, but I understand how hard that is when you work with them. Is there any way you can get your desk moved, or work temporarily in a different area?

In the end, I worked out that my contact with my girl was all about me wanting to be significant in her life. If I thought she felt I was significant, it meant I was a worthwhile human being, that I was attractive and sexually interesting. Once I worked that out, I knew I had it all wrong and I should really be giving that validation to myself. So that's what I've been working on this year, and I have felt a lot better ever since.

My wife and I are still separated, although we still talk a lot and help each other with our psychological insights. I think we are both likely to start up other relationships soon and that will be OK. Anyway, that's some of my story, for better or worse.
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Old 24th March 2007, 3:18 AM   #52
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uplooker,

I hope you will not leave. Just take what you can use and leave the rest.

You will find many who understand and care without being judgmental.

At the same time, those who have been hurt in certain areas will undoubtedly have an opinion that isn't very positive to your situation.

While I haven't been in your position, I see that I could quite possibly be there at some time.

I've done many things that I thought I never would.
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Old 24th March 2007, 3:36 AM   #53
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So what's the answer, guys? And gals there, blueberry. Every problem has a solution, even if it's something that we don't understand or agree with. So with the problem of limerence or genuine love or infatuation or whatever you decide to call it, what do you think the answer is and would it be different for each of us?

I did the 'no contact' thing and it hasn't phased my love for the OW at all. Not much else I know to do that is more severing than having zero contact with the person for several weeks. And even then the contact was only broken by bumping into each other in public. Then it was several more weeks until the next time we happened to be in the same place at the same time.

I understand the no contact deal can't be considered when you are working with/for the person. So what other things have you tried?

As for me, I want this woman. I want contact and I want her as my wife. Want, want, want...
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Old 24th March 2007, 3:54 AM   #54
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I did my best when I thought about her faults, her negative points. If I did that long enough, it would knock her off the pedestal I had her on. At one point last year, I re-discovered my anger and had a brief period where I was happy in the knowledge that I had displaced her image from my mind. It only lasted a few days.

Do I like limerance? Ultimately, no. It gives rise to major anxiety in me and this heavily outweighs the positives.
Sometimes I do this but it doesn't seem to be voluntary. I thought it stemmed from my disappointment in being away from her and was my mind trying to find fault in her somehow. But it does help with the longing to be with her.

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Have I learned anything from limerance? My word yes. The good thing about my recent experience was that it forced me to confront myself - who I am, my shortcomings, my weaknesses, my inner hurts. What I discovered was that part of my vulnerability to limerance arises from my lack of internal validation. I recently read a fantastic book called No More Mr. Nice Guy (by Robert Glover), which really hit the nail on the head.

Another thing I've learned about myself through all of this is that there is a fairly complex psychology going on - I seek validation through the sexual attentions of attractive women. That doesn't mean I have sex with them. In fact, I've never had a sexual affair, never come close to one (this recent girl was my one and only emotional affair though).

Can you dismantle a limerant attachment? I know Tennov said it is involuntary and chemical, but I think we sustain it through our thoughts. I honestly believe it has a lot in common with depression i.e. it is manifested by thoughts and results in a chemical change. I think we have the power to change these thoughts, even though limerance does tend to have a tenacious grip on us.
So why wouldn't you feel this need for validation from all women you are attracted to? There are many very attractive ladies I interact with daily or weekly that I do not feel any feelings toward. They are fun to flirt with but there isn't any emotional attachment taking place. If I never see them again I will forget about them quickly. Or did I miss what you were saying?

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NC is the very best approach, but I understand how hard that is when you work with them. Is there any way you can get your desk moved, or work temporarily in a different area?
You posted this while I was typing on my earlier post. If NC is the best approach or solution how long does the period have to be before seeing the person you are so attracted to doesn't set you back and make you start all over again? Just seeing this woman right out of the blue like I did brought all those feelings right back immediately. And you could see that the same was going on with her. Her face and eyes would light up like they did when we were together. And then I leave her knowing that I am going to have to start all over again with the emotions and feelings of loss. NC sucks. Maybe permanent NC is what it takes. NC ever.
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Old 24th March 2007, 4:35 AM   #55
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Red face you are in deep..

OP : The type of feelings you have for her are dangerous because they are * emotional * feelings. The most devastating kind when you are married to someone else...

If the lady in your office were attracted to you and felt the way you did and showed you affection and sent you loving emails then there would be a Nuclear War in your world..... But she does not apparently feel as strongly as you do.

The worse news is this : This chemistry and extremely strong attraction will never * fade * or diminish. Its like a light bulb that comes on when she is present.

You cannot * make * the feelings go away so you must take some kind of action. I can recommend a few things. You can imagine her as a burn victim when she is present. Visualize her in a manner you would not find attractive. Confuse and trick your mind. Likely visualizing won't help you that much though ....desperate actions for desperate times....lol..

Even if she moved away and you ran across her again then the * light bulb * would come on again. How do I know ? At 14 years old I had a bf and we had a very strong chemistry. I saw him 20 years later and we still * had the chemistry *. Amazing I know...

I think this is deeper than you being * bored * with your marraige. I believe your heart is telling you she is * the one * who listens and is everything you want.
If she wanted you the same way you want her then you would walk away from what you have ( your marraige ) a try to create something with this woman. But she doesn't ...so you stay in * Limbo * and thats where you will stay for eternity. You may not be able to stop the attraction but keeping busy can make her out of sight out of mind. But you work with her..

I want to say your Post was a fantastic presentation and I felt like I was reading a small love journal...

But in any case you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Only distance can make this lesser......until she comes around again.
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Old 24th March 2007, 6:50 PM   #56
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Unhappy Ecce homo (behold the f***ed-up man)

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Sometimes I do this but it doesn't seem to be voluntary. I thought it stemmed from my disappointment in being away from her and was my mind trying to find fault in her somehow. But it does help with the longing to be with her.
As you said earlier, it's quite possible that our own experiences of limerance are unique. Still, in my case, I always found that it was strengthened and weakened by the different thoughts I had. When I broke down my idealised image of her, I felt less of that intoxicating pull to her. But I was never strong enough to keep doing that for long enough. Inevitably, she would be nice to me and I would fall for her all over again.


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So why wouldn't you feel this need for validation from all women you are attracted to? There are many very attractive ladies I interact with daily or weekly that I do not feel any feelings toward. They are fun to flirt with but there isn't any emotional attachment taking place. If I never see them again I will forget about them quickly. Or did I miss what you were saying?

Great question. Really, great question. I've never stopped to think about this! Remember, this is my particular condition - I'm not saying that this necessarily applies to you or anyone else. What I am saying though is that there is usually an underlying psychology that is driving us, and it is usually something to do with an attachment to a parental figure.

To answer the question, I think I have to form an emotional attachment to the woman first. If I share any kind of intimate conversation with them, I think this process initiates. I also need to see them and interact with them regularly. I'm guessing that this doesn't happen more often at work because I am fairly guarded about who I share my inner feelings with. It takes a certain amount of trust, and I don't usually feel trust that quick. Still, I don't think this really explains my second case of limerance. I was besotted by her long before I ever spoke to her. I think I just idealised her without even trying? Maybe she is the clue to working out what is really going on?


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You posted this while I was typing on my earlier post. If NC is the best approach or solution how long does the period have to be before seeing the person you are so attracted to doesn't set you back and make you start all over again? Just seeing this woman right out of the blue like I did brought all those feelings right back immediately. And you could see that the same was going on with her. Her face and eyes would light up like they did when we were together. And then I leave her knowing that I am going to have to start all over again with the emotions and feelings of loss. NC sucks. Maybe permanent NC is what it takes. NC ever.

I'm going to divulge something I'm a bit ashamed of. My first girlfriend (or fiancee as she was then) left me when I was 23. Even though I never heard from her ever again, I didn't truly get over her memory until I was 35. I don't know if I was actually limerant for that whole time, but the limerance lasted well into my marriage and caused big problems.

When it happened the third time, I was determined to do something about it. I went to counselling and learned a lot about my particular psychology that was contributing to this problem. Looking back, there were several factors that were exacerbating my desire to communicate with her:

1. My need for validation - emotional and sexual
2. The passionate feelings I felt - it was a far cry from the greyness of depression
3. My isolation at work - the feeling of having an ally
4. Some sort of complicated echo of the scene that played out when my mother kicked me out of home for dating my first girlfriend (I still haven't worked this one out completely but it's spookily familiar - my wife replacing my mother when I had my emotional affair)
5. My desire to make her my partner

I don't have a simple answer for you. I think limerance for me had a lot in common with my depression - it was a "disease" borne of thought, exacerbated by thought and diminished by thought. And what seemed like a chemical disease was really a moment-to-moment choice. I could choose to strengthen or diminish my feelings depending on what I concentrated on.

In my most recent case of limerance though, there was too much going on for me to just take one approach. The things that worked best for me were:

* NC - I always felt best after a long holiday break (say 3 weeks)
* re-discovering my anger towards her - getting angry at her for not reciprocating my feelings and treating me "coldly" or indifferently
* concentrating on my own personal growth
* keeping myself busy with work, hobbies and activities - it was the rumination and spare time that killed me
* just loving her freely and purely without putting conditions on it

By the time she left work, I had diminished the rollercoaster experience significantly, although not totally. I don't think I'm totally over her, but in my case, I'm using the experience to work out as much psychological stuff as possible.

I know my last girl was not "the one". In my lucid moments, I could see how wrong she was for me. But when the limerance is flowing, all that goes out the window and I forgive her for everything :|

CrossRhodes

PS. I can't help but see some value in the message from The Secret right here. Thinking negatively about her only seemed to exacerbate my obsession with her i.e. it was never really enough for me to tell myself "I don't really want to be with her". It was better when I visualised another relationship that would ensue after her. Similarly, I always felt my best when I just "went with the universe" i.e. I allowed myself to love her without expectations. It's a bit of a high-wire act though and I would inevitably look down and fall off. One of the authors presented in The Secret - James Ray - describes the Law Of Attraction as "think, feel, act". This is pretty powerful if you understand it. The way I got it, it's not enough to just think your way out of these problems (e.g. depression, limerance). They are powerful feeling states borne of thought, so we need to think positively, then feel that thought viscerally.

I hope that doesn't make me sound like a fanboy of The Secret - I'm not very fond of mystical theories, New Ageism or the naked materialism depicted in the film. But I do see a core idea in it which, in the small ways I have practised it during my life, has definitely had merit.
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Old 24th March 2007, 6:58 PM   #57
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The killer aspect of this is that I work with her, so it's impossible to stay away from her. The added twist is that I have alpha male issues with our boss, and I know exactly what he is thinking about when he chats her up. And yes I know he has every right to talk to her about whatever he wants, but I cannot control this irrational jealousy for a woman I can never have and do not really want.
You have to decide you want your jealously and feelings to stop. What good is coming of this if you let 'things' get out of control? Only bad stuff is going to happen...And, you have alot to lose if you don't get your thoughts together and let go of your jealously. Deal with it, go to therapy otherwise things won't ever change.

Quote:
It's the perfect storm. I have good days and very bad days. The very bad days are when he spends a lot of time with her. I am elated when she says good nite to me. I am thrilled when she e-mail's me a joke. I am crushed when she goes into my boss's office. I think about her just about every waking hour. I'm thankful that I somehow can get some sleep. It's probably only a matter of time before this gets screwed up too. This truly is HELL.
This is more than a crush, this is borderline obsession. Your thoughts, desires...All of it are out of control. Are you this jealous if your wife talks to another man? Or is it just with the co-worker?

This is why I am suggesting you go talk to someone, your emotions and feelings are all over the place, and it's got to stop. You have get yourself in check, man. As I mentioned already, otherwise you will lose your wife.

Imagine how you would feel if your wife was lusting and obsessed with another man, like you are with your co-worker? I bet it would kill your heart.

Quote:
I am continuing to try to rewire myself. What some here may not understand is that these emotions are involuntary. As I originally explained in this thread, I stopped flirting with her once I caught the limerence disease. I do not want to be this way. I am not chasing her. I pay attention to my wife and family. I want this all to end.
Seriously, get to therapy. Therapy is your friend and you CAN fix those obsessive thoughts. You may not physically chasing her, but you are in your head. Hense the thoughts, fantasies that go on, and continue to feed your feelings.

The other alternative is, start looking for another job, then quit your present job.
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Old 24th March 2007, 7:04 PM   #58
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The worse news is this : This chemistry and extremely strong attraction will never * fade * or diminish. Its like a light bulb that comes on when she is present.

You cannot * make * the feelings go away so you must take some kind of action. I can recommend a few things. You can imagine her as a burn victim when she is present. Visualize her in a manner you would not find attractive. Confuse and trick your mind. Likely visualizing won't help you that much though ....desperate actions for desperate times....lol..

Never say never. My own experience of limerance contradicts what you wrote - you do eventually get over them. You stop obsessing about them. It's the obsession that kills.



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I think this is deeper than you being * bored * with your marraige. I believe your heart is telling you she is * the one * who listens and is everything you want.

I don't know how to say this politely. I'm really really troubled by what you have written. People don't usually have affairs because they have genuinely met "the one". In fact, there is no "the one". People have affairs because something is missing in their marriage and they get that need fulfilled outside it. Those affairs almost always end badly because the affair only fulfils a limited range of needs. The married person gets very depressed because he/she transgressed their personal values. It's a very sad and painful phenomenon.



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I want to say your Post was a fantastic presentation and I felt like I was reading a small love journal...

I bet the OP doesn't feel that way though.
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Old 24th March 2007, 7:28 PM   #59
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Imagine how you would feel if your wife was lusting and obsessed with another man, like you are with your co-worker? I bet it would kill your heart.

...

Seriously, get to therapy. Therapy is your friend and you CAN fix those obsessive thoughts. You may not physically chasing her, but you are in your head. Hense the thoughts, fantasies that go on, and continue to feed your feelings.

The other alternative is, start looking for another job, then quit your present job.

I agree with the initial value of therapy here, but it's not a panacea for limerance. OP is not at risk of losing his marriage here. His LO does not share his feelings and has described solid emotional boundaries. OP is actually at risk of depression. Also, he is not lusting after this woman.

I'm guessing you haven't experienced this situation? Can I ask what your experience of limerance and/or marital infidelity is?
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Old 24th March 2007, 8:18 PM   #60
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more thoughts...

Isn't it possible to love someone and marry them and then in later years meet someone else who touches your heart enough so that you fall in love with that person as well? Can't it be as simple as that, and not due to all of these speculated reasons? I do. We don't necessarily just find "the one" person throughout our whole lives who will be "the one" person we feel love for. And it is not always the psychologically troubled or ones who have bad marriages who have this problem as demonstrated by the original poster. And as a Christian woman, I can say that even "we" have these dilemmas of the heart. I love my husband, but it has never been an overpowering love by any means for me, and like I mentioned earlier, I have been deeply in love with my present boss for over a year. It is a major temptation for me, but I realized the last few days I am going to try the one tool I haven't been using, prayer. It is the only thing I can think of to try and keep these feelings for my boss under control. I will always want my boss in my life so I will never leave my job or shut him out of my life. I realize that if I can't have him as a lover or a husband, I'd rather be his righthand woman at work than nothing at all..
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