KissMyTiara Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I've posted about this in the dating thread a while back...but I never really got my answers... I am dating a wonderful Jewish man. I'm concerned that inevitably, because I am not Jewish, that I will be shut out of his life and our relationship will end. He has said that while he and his parents would prefer that he eventually marry a Jewish girl that it is far more important that the girl he marries is a genuinely wonderful person. Conversion hasn't been discussed at this point, although I would certainly entertain the idea if we were to get that serious. For the Jewish LS folks out there...can you please advise me what it is that is generally told to a Jewish guy dating a non-Jewish girl that makes him decide to stop dating her? Do you have any experience or knowledge re: Jews dating non-Jews?? Link to post Share on other sites
curiousnycgirl Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 The biggest factor in interfaith dating is the children and how they will be raised. In Judaism the religion of the child is that of the mother - so unless she is jewish the child must be converted to be jewish too. This is THE biggest reason jewish families are opposed to intermarriage, but I assure you they come up with plenty more. My mother's latest is where will I be buried - because she cannot even fathom the concept of an interfaith cemetary! ROFL It really all depends on how religious this guy is, how religious his family is - and how much of an influence his family has on him. My brother has never dated a jewish woman, but would not ever consider marrying a non-jew. Lucky for him my family is totally cool with conversion (not all families are). Bottom line is you really need to see where his (and his family's) head is on this issue - there are many ways it can go. Link to post Share on other sites
alphamale Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 well.....i'm not jewish....but I did stay at a holiday inn express last nite see, the jewish faith is very worried about losing population due to intermarriage and it is a big concern to them. there are only like 14 million jews in the whole world, OK? the state of michigan has like 11 million people for comparison. the #1 most impt thing would be that you converted and were serious about raising your kids jewish. in judiasm generally the kids are the relilgion of the mom and you would have to convert for their family to be cool w/ you. Link to post Share on other sites
BrotherAaron Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Well, I'm not jewish either, but I worked at a holiday inn for a year and a half... and most people who stay there are still pretty dumb the next day Anyway, about religion in general... I don't recommend getting into a relationship if religion is important to the other person and not to you. My most recent relationship collapsed because I'm not a christian and she was. As for converting... how do you willingly change a religion? I don't get it. Try instead telling him that you will never be Jewish and see what happens. If he's ok with that, don't worry about it anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Erin_G Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 You posted and got no response because frankly someone would be friggin nuts to respond because they'd get their arse kicked. Now. I have been there and I can give advice. I am not Jewish but dated a Jewish person. You will always be an outsider to his relatives. You will always be a goy, a nonjew. Their culture can be INCREDIBLY insular. Maybe your BF is fine with it, but I can assure you his parents aren't being so nice about it; he's just changing what they had to say to make it nicer for you to hear. Your way of life will be different to them, even if it's not. You can pick everything at top speed. It won't matter. You can convert, and that will be great for him and maybe your in laws to be. I hate to sound divisive but his relatives will always talk about your goy way of thinking, goy way of looking at the world, they'll ask him privately but within ear shot of you why he couldn't find a nice Jewish girl (you think I'm kidding?) Relatives will be close and perhaps might liberally sprinkle conversations with Yiddish terms and expect you to understand. To them, it's the context in which they were raised, and what, doesn't everybody understand every gutteral utterance that punctuates an otherwise English sentence? BTW, there a scores of terms and special words for nonjews. There is even a word for men and women that means "a nonjewish man or woman you date for sexual practice but do not intend to marry." I didn't buy it eaither at first. Go ahead and ask around, but ask a neutral party who will actually tell you (and who knows Yiddish). I DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT MEAN TO BE ANTISEMITIC but you MUST understand that there is GREAT potential for them to be anti-anglo -- the street goes both ways! Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 My BF is Jewish (and lives in the US like you). His 2 ex-wives were not Jewish. His brother married two non-Jewish wives also, but the second one (with whom he still lives) converted from Orthodox Christian to Jewish. They are not religious at all, don't believe in god, but celebrate all the Jewish holidays. It depends on how religious he is and how much he cares about what his parents say. And of course, how much he loves you. Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted May 5, 2005 Share Posted May 5, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale see, the jewish faith is very worried about losing population due to intermarriage and it is a big concern to them. It's true that they are worried about losing faith, but many see the intermarriage as an opportunity to convert a non-Jew into a Jew. Link to post Share on other sites
curiousnycgirl Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Wow I just wrote this whole long response and it disappeared on me! Hope I can repeat it. Firstly a somewhat derogatory term for a non jewish female is Shiksa, for a man it is Shaygitz. Their literal meaning is not positive, but they are used in everyday speech and have really lost their edge - depending on context of course. Secondly I am very sorry Erin had such a bad experience, but that does NOT mean that is true of all jews. Every race and religion has good people and bad people (sorta like the witches in the wizard of oz ). I am a full fledged jewish person. I graduated yeshiva (jewish paraochial school) after 13 years, was raised orthodox, etc. The jewish LAW on conversion is that it is our obligation to try to talk someone out of conversion, by telling them how hard jewish life is, to test their conviction. However once they get past that test and continue toward conversion - they are welcomed with open arms. I have been dating a non jewish man for almost a year now. Yes my parents are not too happy about it - but frankly it is my life - and he very obviously makes me happy. They may not like the fact that I am dating out of the faith - but they like HIM and he is a welcome part of all of our family gatherings - including our recent passover seders (dinners), one of which was actually in our synagogue. As far as life style goes - if this man is dating you then I doubt he is very religious - so you should not see many differences in lifestyle. I have a friend who converted for her ex-husband. The only issue she ever had was that he would not eat meat with dairy - although he would eat cheeseburgers. This is one of the rules of Kashrut (Kosherness) that is deeply ingrained in us - sort of like rigid toilet training, those of us raised in traditional houses just can't seem to mix milk and meat. Yes it's weird, but so are many other things. KMT I would continue to enjoy this relationship and see how it goes. Don't sweat the what may be's. I'm here for you if you have any further questions. Curious Link to post Share on other sites
RecordProducer Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 KMT, if he is not religious and doesn't believe in god then relax! You can simply ask him in a suitable context if he would ever marry a non-Jewish girl. It doesn't sound like you're proposing to him. After all, you have a right to know how (un)serious he is about you. Whatever we tell you here may not apply in his case. Everyone is different. Link to post Share on other sites
Author KissMyTiara Posted May 6, 2005 Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 Thank you SO much Curious for your response. Very helpful. I do, however, have some questions for you... Originally posted by curiousnycgirl The jewish LAW on conversion is that it is our obligation to try to talk someone out of conversion, by telling them how hard jewish life is, to test their conviction. However once they get past that test and continue toward conversion - they are welcomed with open arms. In what ways is a person who desires to convert tested? I have been dating a non jewish man for almost a year now. Yes my parents are not too happy about it - but frankly it is my life - and he very obviously makes me happy. They may not like the fact that I am dating out of the faith - but they like HIM and he is a welcome part of all of our family gatherings - including our recent passover seders (dinners), one of which was actually in our synagogue. As far as life style goes - if this man is dating you then I doubt he is very religious - so you should not see many differences in lifestyle. I have a friend who converted for her ex-husband. The only issue she ever had was that he would not eat meat with dairy - although he would eat cheeseburgers. This is one of the rules of Kashrut (Kosherness) that is deeply ingrained in us - sort of like rigid toilet training, those of us raised in traditional houses just can't seem to mix milk and meat. Yes it's weird, but so are many other things. My guy has said that he and his family would PREFER that he marry a Jewish girl, but the most important thing is that he marries a wonderful girl he loves who maintains the same values and ethical standards. He doesn't keep kosher, but he does have what I will call weekly "lessons" or "discussions" or "Torah study" with his Rabbi, he has that little thing on the doorjamb, and he OCCASIONALLY says a prayer before dinner (totally randomly, won't do it in public, and only sometimes does it at home...never know when he's gonna bust out a prayer). Given this, how likely is it that I will be an outsider in his life? Assuming we live happily ever after and I DO convert, will I ever really be accepted?? THAT is my main concern. I REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLLLLYYY like him. Really. So, well see how things go... Link to post Share on other sites
fanou22 Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 KMT, An acquaintance of mine who is Catholic is married to a Jewish guy. Remembering your thread I asked her the question that you have asked here. The issue of religion was minimal between them since he is as she called him a "Holiday Jewish" (no offense to anyone). She did not convert to Judaism and they were married by a Rabbi who made them promise that the future children would be Jewish. She does not have a problem with that either. The extent of her knowledge on this topic is limited to what she told me. I would have loved to help you out more. I hope that this will help. By the way, I tried PMing you but it kept saying that you had PM disabled. Link to post Share on other sites
curiousnycgirl Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 KMT - Sorry it took so long to respond, I was away for most of the weekend. "Testing" one's conviction to convert is simply trying to talk them out of doing it by telling them how difficult the jewish life style is. Of course this is really only done by the orthodox and ultra orthodox (Chasidic) - in reform and conservative there really is no push back. In orthodoxy a conversion takes 2 years of studying (but a check for the right amount of $'s can cut that down to 2 days ). In conservative and reform Judaism you read a book, answer some questions to the rabbi's satisfaction and you are done. Once a rabbi says you are jewish - you ARE jewish and cannot be treated like an outsider by any Jew. Of course they can find a million other reasons not to like you - but that's true anywhere and everywhere. One word of caution - I would not go with a reform conversion - rather I would go conservative. It is the easiest that is acceptable within all forms of Judaism (the orthodox do not accept anything the reform do). As far as your guy is concerned it sounds like he strongly identifies with Judaism (as indicated by his continued studying), although does not practice all the rules. That is not uncommon. Everyone finds the level they are happy with. If you can live with what he does - then you are fine. Another point of note - Jews don't really pray before meals, we pray after meals. The prayers before the meal are very short - first we wash our hands (saying a prayer) and then we say a prayer over the bread. In between hand washing and bread breaking - you are not allowed to speak. That is the RULE - of course not everyone does it. In Judaism Grace is said after meals (and is called "Grace after Meals") and is pretty lengthy. It is my pleasure to answer any and all questions you may have. My biggest suggestion at this point is for you to continue to get to know him and enjoy what you've got! The rest will follow. Link to post Share on other sites
NotReallyAGuest Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Thank you for your replies! Very helpful! Link to post Share on other sites
Naive Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 Originally posted by KissMyTiara I've posted about this in the dating thread a while back...but I never really got my answers... I am dating a wonderful Jewish man. I'm concerned that inevitably, because I am not Jewish, that I will be shut out of his life and our relationship will end. He has said that while he and his parents would prefer that he eventually marry a Jewish girl that it is far more important that the girl he marries is a genuinely wonderful person. Conversion hasn't been discussed at this point, although I would certainly entertain the idea if we were to get that serious. For the Jewish LS folks out there...can you please advise me what it is that is generally told to a Jewish guy dating a non-Jewish girl that makes him decide to stop dating her? Do you have any experience or knowledge re: Jews dating non-Jews?? My sister has been with two Jewish men and she married both of them. The first one she was not Jewish and his family was higly religious as was he, not as much as his parents but he practiced his religion. When they first dated it was not a big issue but once they started to get serious he asked her to start thinking about converting, which she eventually did. She liked the religion plus they were going to get married. The man she is going to marry this Sunday is also Jewish but he is not as devoted so he would not have cared whether she was Jewish or not. They are having a traditional Jewish wedding, that's why it will be on Sunday. Link to post Share on other sites
Naive Posted May 10, 2005 Share Posted May 10, 2005 By the way, my whole point was that it can definitely work Link to post Share on other sites
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