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Trump and God


Spirituality & Religious Beliefs Contemplate your place and purpose in the universe.

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Old 6th February 2017, 4:01 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by mightycpa View Post
Men who are commonly understood to be evil have other characteristics. They are well spoken, inspirational, smooth and persuasive, and almost universally well-liked at first.
Uh...Jesus was, in some circles, thought to be evil - that's, of course, why he was arrested, tried, tortured and crucified by them. And, he was held to be well-spoken, inspirational, smooth and persuasive, and he was universally well-liked -- by all those who had 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear'.
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Old 6th February 2017, 4:59 PM   #47
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Uh...Jesus was, in some circles, thought to be evil - that's, of course, why he was arrested, tried, tortured and crucified by them. And, he was held to be well-spoken, inspirational, smooth and persuasive, and he was universally well-liked -- by all those who had 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear'.
Yeah, well, 3 years after he began his ministry in earnest that's largely true. But it's also true that many people didn't understand his parables, meaning he wasn't persuasive. He didn't inspire or persuade the rich man to sell all that he possessed and to follow him. Also, the rabbis didn't much appreciate a lot of the things he said, meaning he wasn't inspirational or universally well-liked. Herod sure didn't care for him, and I don't think anybody called him smooth when he was overturning the tables in the temple on the High Holy days or when he was washing the disciples' feet. A lot of things he did were baffling to his contemporaries.

Also, contrary to your assertion, let's not forget that yes, he was arrested and tried because the Sanhedrin didn't like his apparent blasphemy but he was crucified only because he lost a popularity contest to Barabbas. If he'd had the crowd with him, he'd have gone free.

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Pilate called together the chief priests, the rulers and the people, and said to them, "You brought me this man as one who was inciting the people to rebellion. I have examined him in your presence and have found no basis for your charges against him. Neither has Herod, for he sent him back to us; as you can see, he has done nothing to deserve death. Therefore, I will punish him and then release him."

With one voice they cried out, "Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us!" (Barabbas had been thrown into prison for an insurrection in the city, and for murder.)

Wanting to release Jesus, Pilate appealed to them again. But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!"

For the third time he spoke to them: "Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him."

But with loud shouts they insistently demanded that he be crucified, and their shouts prevailed. So Pilate decided to grant their demand. He released the man who had been thrown into prison for insurrection and murder, the one they asked for, and surrendered Jesus to their will.
Interestingly, "bar" means "the son of" and "abba" is father. Barabbas had a fairly meaningless name, "the son of a father", which can be said of every man that ever lived. Barabbas was found guilty and Jesus was found innocent, and yet Jesus died for the sins of the son of a father, an allegory to his earthly mission. But I digress.

Anyway, when he died, there was only a small cadre of followers left behind in comparison to the followers of his rivals. Not so with evil men. They die after they lead their movements to glory, and after they're gone, it all goes to hell.

For that matter, after a while, the Jews were pretty happy with David and Moses and Abraham too, but not at first. They all needed time to grow into their roles. Maybe Trump will grow into his role, or maybe he won't.

So, while I understand what you have to say, I'm not sure that you have quite grasped the spirit of what I had to say. I'll think of a way to say it better.
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Old 6th February 2017, 11:55 PM   #48
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Regardless of your political beliefs there are several facts about Mr. Trump that would go undisputed and can be easily verified.

1. he was a playboy and womanizer. Several Beauty Pageant Contestants have said that he would walk in on them while changing. As a frequent guest on Howard Stern radio show prior to his political position he frequently talked about his escapades. He is recorded saying that he tried to sleep with a married woman while he himself was married but failed. He later goes on to say that as a celebrity he can grab women by their genitals and get away with it. He used a vulgar term for cat instead of genitals.

2. He has a foul mouth. He is on video calling someone the c word (rhymes with bunt.)

3. He has a history of commenting of women looks calling women he doesn't like pigs and so forth. He called the only other female republican candidate for presidency too ugly looking to be president.

4. He was involved in a large fraud case that he settled regarding a fake real estate university.

5. His true wealth has been disputed.

I'm not sure how any of this makes him comparable to Jesus Christ or how it makes HIM anointed.
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Old 7th February 2017, 5:39 AM   #49
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But it's also true that many people didn't understand his parables, meaning he wasn't persuasive. He didn't inspire or persuade <snip> and I don't think anybody called him smooth when he was overturning the tables <snip> A lot of things he did were baffling to his contemporaries.
We have to keep in mind, though, that the reason why Jesus spoke in parables is precisely because many/most of the people who came in contact with his Teachings did not have 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear' (and many/most still don't). That is why they were baffled; yet, this does not mean that he was not persuasive. Similarly, the deeper meaning of his overturning the tables of the moneylenders is also available only to those who can 'see' and 'hear'.

The 'rich man', rabbis, scribes, Pharisees and members of the Sanhedrin are those of whom I spoke, who felt extremely threatened by him and, thus, in their minds, considered him 'evil'. His Teachings were, in any case, going to go over their heads and baffle them.

He explained his Mission thusly: "I came partly to awaken a certain group of people who were ready for a Higher Teaching; but, I came also for another purpose: to bring forth the Living Word that could serve as the Judgment for a different group of people."
We can clearly tell which group is which.
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Also, contrary to your assertion, let's not forget that yes, he was arrested and tried because the Sanhedrin didn't like his apparent blasphemy but he was crucified only because he lost a popularity contest to Barabbas.
Actually, Jesus was crucified because such had, by that time, become necessary for him to properly fulfill his Mission on Earth. (See his explanation, above.) Also, if read properly, it is clear that, at what is referred to as 'the last supper', he already knew what was going to happen. Barabbas being set free was just another externalization of the collective consciousness at that time - of which fabric Jesus was more than well aware. (In fact, his whole Mission was tied into it, and part of his Mission was for him to facilitate the raising up of it. Again, see his explanation, above.)
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Interestingly, "bar" means "the son of" and "abba" is father. Barabbas had a fairly meaningless name, "the son of a father", which can be said of every man that ever lived.
This is exactly right - and no mere coincidence; again, there is a deeper meaning -- or, in his words, a 'Higher Teaching' - for those who have 'eyes to see' and 'ears to hear'.
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Anyway, when he died, there was only a small cadre of followers left behind in comparison to the followers of his rivals. Not so with evil men. They die after they lead their movements to glory, and after they're gone, it all goes to hell.
In this thinking, then, it's only that the evil of Jesus was posthumous; for, how many have been cruelly, brutally and unjustly tortured, imprisoned, killed or executed 'in the Name of Jesus'?

The Glory that was meant to follow Jesus' Mission is, indeed, a long time coming. However, it will come. .
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Old 7th February 2017, 5:51 AM   #50
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I'm not sure how any of this makes him comparable to Jesus Christ or how it makes HIM anointed.
In Trump's present mentality, the two are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

At higher levels, Trump's value is that he is - albeit, perhaps, inadvertently, unwillingly and perhaps even against his own agenda - uniting many previously-disparate groups of people, who are all coming together in the name of compassion, inclusiveness, tolerance, justice and a basically-felt love for humanity and the planet. These are, of course, all 'godly' or 'goodly' qualities, and what Jesus exemplified and spoke out for.
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Old 7th February 2017, 7:10 AM   #51
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In Trump's present mentality, the two are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

At higher levels, Trump's value is that he is - albeit, perhaps, inadvertently, unwillingly and perhaps even agains- uniting many previously-disparate groups of people, who are all coming together in the name of compassion, inclusiveness, tolerance, justice and a basically-felt love for humanity and the planet. These are, of course, all 'godly' or 'goodly' qualities, and what Jesus exemplified and spoke out for.
I'm sorry but what do you mean by uniting?
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Old 7th February 2017, 7:47 AM   #52
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I'm sorry but what do you mean by uniting?
People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together).

Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.

Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)
The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will ultimately prevail.
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Old 7th February 2017, 8:01 AM   #53
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[QUOTE=Ronni_W;7218804]People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together).

Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.

Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)
The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will

Who do you mean by "They"? I think this is the most polarized I have ever seen politics in my life.
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Old 7th February 2017, 8:21 AM   #54
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Who do you mean by "They"? I think this is the most polarized I have ever seen politics in my life.
Do you mean my use of 'they' as in, "they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak"?
I was referring to all the "People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions...".

As an example, there are 127 technology firms that "have signed a brief opposing President Trump's immigration ban" -- many of these are business rivals/competitors.

No need to overthink it, Larsoncity. I'm just saying that we haven't seen this level of public collaboration before, and that, personally, I think it's a good thing. If my view is polarized, it's polarized. .
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Old 7th February 2017, 9:14 AM   #55
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Do you mean my use of 'they' as in, "they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak"?
I was referring to all the "People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions...".

As an example, there are 127 technology firms that "have signed a brief opposing President Trump's immigration ban" -- many of these are business rivals/competitors.

No need to overthink it, Larsoncity. I'm just saying that we haven't seen this level of public collaboration before, and that, personally, I think it's a good thing. If my view is polarized, it's polarized. .
I'm just very amazed at the difference in interpretation of Trump and his support. I would say the complete opposite. So when I refer to your use of THEY I wonder who you are referring to. Maybe it's geographic. I do not understand how someone who is being reasonably critical can have an opinion about Trump that is without some degree of reservation. I am not calling you unreasonable or trying to be insulting but it is genuine awe that you seem to have such an opinion that is the complete opposite of my view.
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Old 7th February 2017, 9:34 AM   #56
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I'm just very amazed at the difference in interpretation of Trump and his support. I would say the complete opposite.
Oh, I see...I think .

My support for Trump is (only) that he is helping to awaken people to the absurdity of some of his notions. It's not geographical - they marched in London, Paris and Tokyo, etc., as well.
I'm not saying that the marchers and protesters are supporting HIM - rather, they are uniting against certain of his policies.

For me, how this ties in with the thread title -- Trump and God -- is my belief that the awakening of people happens at the Spiritual level. (Not that Trump necessarily intended to be a 'vehicle' or 'instrument' for this; only that it's turned out that way.)

In any event, I'm happy to agree to disagree - if such is indeed the case.
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Old 9th February 2017, 10:52 AM   #57
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In Trump's present mentality, the two are not comparable in any way, shape or form.

At higher levels, Trump's value is that he is - albeit, perhaps, inadvertently, unwillingly and perhaps even against his own agenda - uniting many previously-disparate groups of people, who are all coming together in the name of compassion, inclusiveness, tolerance, justice and a basically-felt love for humanity and the planet. These are, of course, all 'godly' or 'goodly' qualities, and what Jesus exemplified and spoke out for.
Yes. And these are all things that Trump doesn't care about. My husband voted for Trump and even though I abhor the Clintons' corruptions, I had to cancel out his vote back in November. With health care and children's educations at risk, as well as his stoking up the ire of Middle Eastern countries, it is a scary time to live in.

I just keep telling myself that God in all His righteousness and love is still on the throne and in charge- no matter who is currently in our Oval Office.
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:18 PM   #58
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I just keep telling myself that God in all His righteousness and love is still on the throne and in charge-
Only in the ultimate sense; for, God's Law of Free Will means that He has gifted to us human Beings of Earth the power and authority of being in charge over what happens on Earth. This cannot be over-ridden because it would necessarily mean God having to violate His Own Law of Free Will, which allows us to make our own decisions and choices about what we want to believe and how we want to behave and perceive/treat each other on Earth.

(If God, at any point, just comes storming into Earth - like a knight in shining armour, so to speak - to 'save us' from our own detrimental and harmful decisions and choices (our spiritual mistakes, errors or 'sins') then, necessarily, we have lost our God-given free-will right, power and authority to make those very decisions and choices. This would, necessarily, contradict and contravene God's Vision, Design, Plan and Purpose for there being an 'Earth' in the first place. He won't do it.)

-------

I already know that this belief-view contradicts and contravenes the beliefs and views of material science and all of its faithful followers. .
I already know that, if you are one of these, your belief and view and faith is placed in the 'fact' that I am delusional, and that my belief-views are based in
the unreal and untrue; in superstition, hocus-pocus and black and/or white magic or witchcraft. I was already tried, found guilty and burned at the stake, for that. .
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Old 15th February 2017, 6:49 PM   #59
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I always think this religious talk is about justifying hatred towards anything that represents 'other' (ie homosexual, female, people of colour, jews, muslims, etc).
You generally feel this way when you are prejudiced against religious people.

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And to justify plain old greed and callousness.
Just because a handful of fake religious people (Islamic radicals and "pretend" Christians, etc) use religion to satisfy their greed through the manipulation of those who are sincerely religious, does not make all religious people as you imply they are.

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Old 16th February 2017, 3:19 AM   #60
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People of different groups/cultures/professions/traditions are coming together - mentally, emotionally and through physical action - under a single cause - and these people would either not have felt or not have thought to do so before (their real and perceived differences have, so far, kept them apart more than brought them together). Thanks to Trump they now, though, have found a common ground in what they stand and are willing to stand up and speak out for - they have found their 'line in the sand', so to speak; and, they realize that there's precious little difference in where they draw this line.
Essentially that a common enemy - someone who is a clearly against the ideals of tolerance, compassion, collaboration - allows disparate groups to come together and express these very virtues. Sometimes I feel that idea's can be better or more powerfully expressed \ encapsulated through art. I have a particular fondness for the works of MC Escher. I believe his work entitled Angels and Devils shows this idea in a unique way.

https://philosopherdeveloper.files.w...vilsangels.jpg

The devils in the picture create the angels. They are required in order that the angels be visible. Thus seemingly negative actions and intent - can eventually result in positive actions and outcomes. An unfortunate side effect of this concept is sometimes it works the other way we constantly look for evil to oppose - even where maybe it doesn't really exist - in an attempt to show our own goodness we unwittingly become the negative we are looking for.

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Now; yes, at this point it's only to protest against, but, nonetheless, it's a start. (If we look at the evolution of our history, especially as far as real social justice and reform, then this is the first step; which, as is evident, does come with inconvenience, rhetoric and people 'taking to the street'.)
The vision is, of course, that things will remain calm and peaceful or non-violent and that sanity will ultimately prevail.
In order for a system or belief structure to fall or be changed often times we must see it's flaws clearly. Its my belief that Trump's emergence is part of the nadir of the current western political \ value system. While not pleasant a necessary evil to show its flaws clearly before something new and better can emerge.

In terms of the protest - and hope for peace and calm. I think that's important that the resistance and push for change remains that way. The message during the election was "Love trumps hate" - but sadly many of the people protesting with that slogan were not practicing what they preached. I'm hoping in the long run - trump is a catalyst for positive change and just hope we can get there without too much carnage.

Last edited by Justanaverageguy; 16th February 2017 at 4:31 AM..
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