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Trump and God


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Old 21st November 2016, 2:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BetheButterfly View Post
I think there are some politicans who aren't corrupt, but I agree that most are. Politics doesn't have to be that way, in my opinion.

Some say he's a baby Christian, and then they say he's a modern day Cyrus (who was not a Christian). It's just because they believe he's an American Messiah. They say he's a baby Christian or Cyrus because they don't expect him to obey Jesus Christ's commands, even though he identifies as a Christian.

Jesus Christ warned, "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time." - Matthew 24:24-25 (NIV)

To many American Christians, Trump is seen as a sort of American Messiah, though of course they consider him to be a messiah like Cyrus, because it's blasphemy in Christian beliefs to consider Trump to be the messiah (Jesus Christ), and they know that. Interestingly, Jesus didn't specify whether the false messiahs are only those claiming to be on the throne of King David, or if this means false messiahs in general, including messiahs put in the Cyrus category.

Nebuchadenezzar is not a Christian, and neither was Cyrus. (Christians didn't exist till after Jesus Christ came lol.) So, it doesn't make sense to compare a Christian to either king, and the President of the USA is not supposed to be a king anyways.

Trump does not obey some of Jesus Christ's commands; that's just a fact.
Definitely, loving one's neighbors as oneself is important. There's a reason Jesus Christ commanded it, and it wasn't for the greedy self-interests of any rich person, but rather for the good of all people!!!

Agreed.
Disagree. I think we should not be nervous or afraid, but rather we should be vigilant and make sure he doesn't do a modern day Trail of Tears. Sadly, American history is full of Christians disobeying Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies.

It's very important for Christian Americans to take a stand for our poor neighbors who are strangers and who are hated by white supremacists. It's also very important to pray for white supremacists, blessing them and doing good to them, since someday they may repent of their sins and love all people no matter their skin color, ethnicity, and any other difference. After all, the Kingdom of Heaven includes people "from every nation, tribe, people and language" (Revelation 7:9b).

Thank you for that. I feel like as a Christian on the other side of the world ( from America) I almost HAD to support Trump, even though I'm a New Zealander and cannot vote! ( I'm so glad I'm not American, during the election, in America- no offense to American's out there) There is so much judgement if you're Christian and you do support for Trump, there is so much judgement if you're Christian and you do not support for Trump.

From an outside perspective, I watched the election unfold like a WWE wrestling match. There was a lot of sparing and insults but not real substance on issues that really matter. How do I feel about Trump? I think he is arrogant, He claims to know the bible better than anybody yet he cannot recall or memorise scripture, he made mockery of a reporters menstrual cycle, he poked fun of a reporters disability, he insulted a war hero, he referred to Barbara Bush as "mommy". He calls people stupid, losers and dummies. These things were tweeted and made public. He has bragged about wanting to sexually assault a married women, claiming that you can place your hands anywhere because when you're a "star" you can do pretty much anything you want to and women will let you.


This is a man I don't want to bring nuclear ships into nuclear-free countries like my country, New Zealand. And I think he is so brazenly arrogant, I think he would probably do it, regardless of protest.
In fact, I think he really seems to have little respect for anyone but himself. He has also suggested that he wanted to 'open up' libel laws so he can sue press


According to The New Yorker's John Cassidy, Cassidy wrote: "Trump takes attacks on media to new level -- says as president he'll try to gut the First Amendment."

Who is this guy? he doesn't seem to be the God ordained man that people claim him to be, he seems to be a man who acts more like a dictator than anything or anyone presidential.

I'll pray for America and the rest of the world. I'm sorry America that it has come to this.
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Old 21st November 2016, 4:57 PM   #17
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In the South, there is a lot of judgement if you are a Christian and don't vote Republican. A favorite author of mine called it an unholy alliance. I've wondered if the evangelical alliance with the Republican Party is an overcorrection of separation of church and state.
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Old 21st November 2016, 8:18 PM   #18
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We prayed for our country in my church the night before the election and it's a Roman Catholic Church. There was also a prayer group in the Methodist church and there was a sign outside the Baptist church that simply said "first pray then vote".

I think people were very conflicted this time around on knowing just what the right thing to do was. Personally I don't think that Donald Trump is overly religious but I truly believe he has a good heart.

I know that not everybody feels the same as me but fortunately enough people think he's a good man too.
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Old 21st November 2016, 8:39 PM   #19
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The fact that Trump has tricked the right into thinking he is some sort of Christian is hilarious. I consider him RINO - religious in name only! People looking at him as some sort of savior are creepy and scary. I don't think many look to him as a "religious figure"...though I do think they pretend he is more religious than he actually is. I mean gimme a break...he's not a conservative Christian by any stretch of the imagination, I wouldn't be surprised if he is a closet atheist!
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Old 21st November 2016, 8:50 PM   #20
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The fact that Trump has tricked the right into thinking he is some sort of Christian is hilarious. I consider him RINO - religious in name only! People looking at him as some sort of savior are creepy and scary. I don't think many look to him as a "religious figure"...though I do think they pretend he is more religious than he actually is. I mean gimme a break...he's not a conservative Christian by any stretch of the imagination, I wouldn't be surprised if he is a closet atheist!
As I said during the campaign, "Clinton had supporters, and Trump had believers."

That campaign was a very unholy process.

I found it quite disgusting.
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Old 21st November 2016, 9:01 PM   #21
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As I said during the campaign, "Clinton had supporters, and Trump had believers."
Then why did they all cry in disbelief when she lost?
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Old 21st November 2016, 9:18 PM   #22
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Then why did they all cry in disbelief when she lost?
Trump voters peeling onions?
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Old 21st November 2016, 9:26 PM   #23
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The fact that Trump has tricked the right into thinking he is some sort of Christian is hilarious. I consider him RINO - religious in name only! People looking at him as some sort of savior are creepy and scary. I don't think many look to him as a "religious figure"...though I do think they pretend he is more religious than he actually is. I mean gimme a break...he's not a conservative Christian by any stretch of the imagination, I wouldn't be surprised if he is a closet atheist!
I know many people who believe Trump's election was God's will or a sign that God had his hand on this election. Really and truly, the problem with religion is that it often does not operate in a world of facts. Most religious beliefs are based on the supernatural, so you can find "evidence" for anything if you look hard enough. People believe what fits in with their world view and what makes them comfortable. If you have been beaten over the head with the idea that the Republican Party is doing God's work, your inclination might very well be to believe that God is using Trump to do His work. In the past, you would have seen evangelical leaders want a President that professed to be a Christian and acted like one. Apparently, that model had to change a little when Trump became the nominee, so it's morphed into the idea that God is using Trump.

As a person who grew up in the evangelical tradition, I can definitely say that there is a lot beating people over the head that the Republican Party is somehow God's party. I personally don't think the church needs to be involved in politics to the degree that it is. Mainly, because politics and power are so corrupting. Having said that, some evangelicals have spoken out against Trump.
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Old 21st November 2016, 9:49 PM   #24
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When the people in biblical times chose to free a guilty man Barabus, and have Jesus tortured and nailed to the cross....
The people chose the wrong man to free. That's how I feel about the "people" of faith allowing trump to be voted in to run amok.

Yes in retrospect we needed Jesus to be the martyr...wrongly accused..and suffering to free the sinners souls.

I suppose even Judas came to his senses after he betrayed Jesus for a paltry sum.....yet trump lacks any moral compass or filter...something tells me he lacks spiritual knowledge... he praises himself...instead of living the biblical golden rule. He is Judas in so many ways....yet even I had respect for Judas when he realized his flaws and repented thru death. Sometimes I wish trump showed an ounce of humility...for even Jesus...a leader of many and builder of a kingdom had such humility and compassion...
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Old 22nd November 2016, 1:14 AM   #25
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From an outsider ( not an American) I've heard a lot about Trump being " godly ordained" to be the leader of the free world. He seems like a complete buffoon to me. However, the choices ( out of democrats and Republicans) weren't exactly great either.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? What opinions do people have about Trump being " ordained by God"

thanks
I remember a friend, who worked in Texas for a couple of years telling me about the culture shock she got...and particularly with regard to religion.

My (and her) experience of Christianity was mainly what we were taught at school. Christmas carol services, Easter services, morning assemblies where a teacher would read a psalm about being good to eachother, charity collections, supporting children in Africa, Church jumble sales and that sort of thing. She told me that Houston was the sort of place where you'd see one churchgoer steal a parking space in the church car park from another churchgoer and sticking the middle finger up triumphantly at them. She mimicked them doing it. A place where aggression and Christianity seemed to go hand in hand - and people saw no inconsistency between going to Church and being hostile to their neighbour.

My experience of American Christians is limited to what I see and read on the Internet. It does seem that Christianity over there is a far more aggressive sort of thing than it is in the UK....and I also get the sense that it's very tied up with conspiracy theorising. All this magical thinking and using the Bible as a sort of crystal ball to predict future events, rather than using it for moral guidance.

I think it's easy to see how somebody like Trump would capitalise on that crystal ball gazing, conspiracy theorising and quite angry approach to religion. Leaders in the Middle East have done the same thing. They might not always be very devout, but they'll use religion for political gain. In fact, the less devout a person is the easier it probably is for them to do that...whereas a very devout person might feel dirty about using their faith as a means of attaining power.

To me, the "ordained by God" thinking is just part of that "reading the Bible is a bit like going to see a really good, but hard to understand, fortune teller" mindset. If somebody genuinely thinks that Trump was ordained by God to lead America, there's not much anybody can do. The "beware of false prophets" line seems apt, though.

On another note, it's strange to think of people who are termed Republicans supporting the notion of a person being ordained by God to lead a country. Over here, the definition of a Republicans is that they want to remove, as head of state, the person who (along with many pro-monarchists) believes she was ordained by God to be Queen.

Last edited by Taramere; 22nd November 2016 at 1:36 AM..
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Old 22nd November 2016, 8:14 AM   #26
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Thank you for that. I feel like as a Christian on the other side of the world ( from America) I almost HAD to support Trump, even though I'm a New Zealander and cannot vote!
I understand. I was pressured daily to vote for Trump, because of the issue of abortion mainly, as well as homosexual marriage. Personally, I voted for Marco Rubio to be President of the USA, because he has a proven record of decades against abortion, and is a Compassionate Conservative.


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( I'm so glad I'm not American, during the election, in America- no offense to American's out there) There is so much judgement if you're Christian and you do support for Trump, there is so much judgement if you're Christian and you do not support for Trump.From an outside perspective, I watched the election unfold like a WWE wrestling match.
You mean, like this?

"The Battle of the Billionaires..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NsrwH9I9vE
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There was a lot of sparing and insults but not real substance on issues that really matter.
True.

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How do I feel about Trump? I think he is arrogant, He claims to know the bible better than anybody yet he cannot recall or memorise scripture,
Trump is known for self-exaggeration, which is very narcistic. However, since Trump does claim to know the Bible, why does he not obey Jesus Christ? That's been my question all along to Trump supporters who are Christians.

Jesus Christ said that His followers are light and salt of the world (Matthew 5:13-16), because we are to reflect His light to the world. Sadly, Trump is known more for his riches and sexual immorality than for reflecting Jesus Christ to the world. He is truly just pandering to American Christian voters, and he got many of them. Some American Christians, by the way, place more interest in the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life (1 John 2:15-17) than on obeying Jesus Christ. That's just a fact.

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he made mockery of a reporters menstrual cycle, he poked fun of a reporters disability, he insulted a war hero, he referred to Barbara Bush as "mommy". He calls people stupid, losers and dummies.
All the above flies in the face of Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and the Golden Rule. We all know that Trump doesn't like to be insulted. Jesus Christ however made it clear not to insult those who insult us, but rather to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:38-48).

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These things were tweeted and made public. He has bragged about wanting to sexually assault a married women, claiming that you can place your hands anywhere because when you're a "star" you can do pretty much anything you want to and women will let you.
This is another thing that many American Christians completely ignore: lust and heterosexual adultery/immorality. Interestingly, when Jesus Christ talked about hell, most of the time He talked about hell in regards to lust and to not helping those in need. He even used hyperbole to show how important it is for His followers to not lust (Matthew 5:27-30).

Now, has Trump repented for lusting after women not his wife? Has he repented of the following?

"You know, they're standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that," - Trump
Timeline of Trump's Creepiness While He Owned Miss Universe - Rolling Stone

"I made the heels higher and the bathing suits smaller." - Trump

Definitely, lust is a huge problem in the Christian community today. Trump winning the votes of many American Christians in the GOP primary shows how deep lust has crept into the church, so that now it's considered acceptable and normal. (Many Christian marriages are broken or hurt by spouses lusting after other people, including in porn.)

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This is a man I don't want to bring nuclear ships into nuclear-free countries like my country, New Zealand. And I think he is so brazenly arrogant, I think he would probably do it, regardless of protest.
Definitely his comments to kill Iranians just because they mock Americans shows how he does not respect the lives of people in other countries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoCn8pExF70
"Trump Suggests Shooting at Iranian Boats"

Jesus Christ commands love even for enemies, and it's so sad how some American Christians totally ignore Jesus' commands to love enemies.

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In fact, I think he really seems to have little respect for anyone but himself. He has also suggested that he wanted to 'open up' libel laws so he can sue press

According to The New Yorker's John Cassidy, Cassidy wrote: "Trump takes attacks on media to new level -- says as president he'll try to gut the First Amendment."
Aye. That's normal dictator behavior: to control the press.


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Who is this guy? he doesn't seem to be the God ordained man that people claim him to be, he seems to be a man who acts more like a dictator than anything or anyone presidential.
There is a historic precedent to Christian leaders who became dictators in Europe. (That's why it's so important for Christians to obey Jesus Christ, and not just identify as Christian.) Many refugees fled to the USA and the world, to get away from a certain "Christian" dictator in Europe who scapegoated Jews and gypsies, and homosexuals.

My Trumpian friends assure me that this will not happen in the USA. I'm skeptical, especially since Steve Bannon compared Trump to Andrew Jackson:

"Clearly there’s a lot of parallels, I think, to Andrew Jackson, to what happened during the rise of Andrew Jackson’s populism,” Bannon replied, also finding similarities to the fall of the Whigs and William Jennings Bryan’s Populist movement."

Trump Campaign CEO Stephen K. Bannon Speaks with Breitbart News Daily to Celebrate Show Anniversary

While Andrew Jackson wasn't a dictator, he did genocide many Natives in the Trail of Tears. Happy Thanksgiving, by the way, to those who celebrate when the Natives helped the Pilgrims survive.

Horribly, some American Christians in Andrew Jackson's time did not care at all for Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself, love enemies, and the Golden Rule. (Luke 6:31) They wouldn't have liked it for example if the Trail of Tears happened to them!!!
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I'll pray for America and the rest of the world.
Thanks so much. America desperately needs your prayers, and American Christians need prayer that God will open their hearts to the importance of obeying Jesus Christ's commands. Please pray that by God's amazing grace, the USA does not relapse into its racist and bloody past.

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I'm sorry America that it has come to this.
The USA used to be much more racist and much more bloody, so thank God many Americans have grown to understand that all people are equal and that the Golden Rule is vital for a healthy nation.

In Andrew Jackson's time, the USA was not a fun place if you were a Native or had African heritage.

While Frederick Douglass lived in the time of Abraham Lincoln (thank God), this is how he described the "Christianity of this land": (I boldened some.)

What I have said respecting and against religion, I mean strictly to apply to the slaveholding religion of this land, and with no possible reference to Christianity proper; for, between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference — so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked. To be the friend of the one, is of necessity to be the enemy of the other.

I love the pure, peaceable, and impartial Christianity of Christ: I therefore hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land. Indeed, I can see no reason, but the most deceitful one, for calling the religion of this land Christianity


Douglass' Narrative

While thank God the "Christianity of this land" is no longer how Frederick Douglass described it, the "Christianity of this land" has an issue with greed, being infiltrated with the false gospel of prosperity, lust, sexual immorality (including homosexuality and heterosexual adultery), porn addiction, hatred against people of other beliefs, hatred against homosexuals and girls/women who get abortions, as well as white supremacist nationalism (though the body of Christ is global and includes people of every skin color and nation).

The "Christianity of this land" still does not reflect the "Christianity of Christ" as Frederick Douglass described. May God help Christian Americans to reflect more and more the amazing love of Jesus Christ, whose commands are for all people's well-being!

Anyways, I recommend reading Frederick Douglass' autobiography, or listening to it. (I love listening to audiobooks.) Here is an audio link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzkMKD0Mlrs
"Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave"
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Old 22nd November 2016, 10:56 AM   #27
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On another note, it's strange to think of people who are termed Republicans supporting the notion of a person being ordained by God to lead a country. Over here, the definition of a Republicans is that they want to remove, as head of state, the person who (along with many pro-monarchists) believes she was ordained by God to be Queen.
This is where I wonder if Americans are overcorrecting for separation of church and state. I have no doubt that many Christians here would love a theocracy where religious law imposed. In fact, I have no doubt because I know some people who have told me so. Americans have never lived in a time when the church made the laws of the land. We just read about it in our history books. You actually have that in your history.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 11:58 AM   #28
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This is where I wonder if Americans are overcorrecting for separation of church and state. I have no doubt that many Christians here would love a theocracy where religious law imposed. In fact, I have no doubt because I know some people who have told me so.
I do not want a theocracy in the USA, not until Jesus Christ returns to be King over all nations. His Kingdom will not be brought about by mere mortals, but by God.

Mere mortals who establish a theocracy often persecute people of other beliefs or no beliefs. This is actually against Jesus Christ's commandments. Jesus Christ, for example, did not lead His disciples in overthrowing either the leaders of His nation Israel or the Roman Empire, who was oppressing Israel. (That's one of many reasons why many Jewish people didn't and do not consider Jesus to truly be the Messiah/Christ.)

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Americans have never lived in a time when the church made the laws of the land. We just read about it in our history books. You actually have that in your history.
Americans definitely have not experienced a king or queen that enforced religious adherence to a certain Christian belief, such as King Henry VIII (who murdered Catholics) and Queen Mary (who murdered Protestants).

Not cool, and not what Jesus Christ commanded

It shocks and saddens me how so many Christian leaders in Christian history have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself, and love enemies, torturing and killing Non-Christians, as well as Christians of other beliefs. Again, that's why it's so important for Christians to obey Jesus Christ. He gave the commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies for very important reasons. And, I do believe Jesus will hold Christians accountable for disobeying these commands, and torturing/killing Non-Christians or Christians of a different group.

Separation of Church and State in the USA is a great blessing. It's too easy for a Christian group to persecute NonChristians and/or different Christian groups, since many don't care about obeying Jesus Christ's commands to love.
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Old 22nd November 2016, 9:12 PM   #29
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Trump is a Presbyterian, which is related to the protestant church. He probably neither read the Bible a lot, nor follow the faith. I don't expect him to attend the mass every Sunday morning since he's got far better to do.

He's just not a religious person at all. Also divorcing multiples times over many years isn't following the faith he was raised in.

It's fine though. I wouldn't want as said by other posters above a theocracy, dictator a kingdom in America. America had neither of the all three, for the better.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 12:20 AM   #30
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This has been an interesting debate thanks, everyone.

The media is obviously a bit skewed. I just got the impression that if you're Christian and American, you must love Trump. Heck, there are people in New Zealand who are Christian and New Zealander's and prefer Trump saying " he is against abortion" which by the way, he has changed his stance on that issue at least four or five times and doesn't seem to mind to take out whole families in Iraq if they are Muslim and connected to Isis.

I guess I don't like him and I wanted to know if other Christians didn't like him either. Lol!

It seems there was an election between Stupid and Evil and Stupid won, having said that, stupid is still quite evil- so it was a lose/lose situation for a big orange baby who has incredibly thin skin but equally loves to insult others who aren't the same as him.

Bizare politics.
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