Pope Francis' Message: "Forgiveness"

[Gloria25]

Ok, I am hearing this today:

 

Let God's forgiveness heal your heart, Pope Francis says after Christmas :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

 

The topic of "forgiveness" is one I take issue with on the regular.

 

I cannot stand people who advocate "forgiveness" in some sort of "I'm better than you" gesture...actually, a day ago I was watching "Dateline" on NBC and the lady said what I suspected for years - which was that she wished forgiveness on the woman who killed her daughter because no one is perfect and the day she sins, she wishes someone will forgive her So, now "forgiveness" is some sort of "I got your back if you got mine since we're all sinners" gesture?

 

Worst, is what Pope Francis is advocating that we "martyr" ourselves and "forgive" or persecutors?

 

Whaaaat???

 

Are we to forgive thugs who take their own religion and use it as a gesture/tool to recruit others to kill the innocent?

 

Regardless of your religious belief, I believe Pope Francis is dead wrong and for us to "forgive" (well Pope Francis' idea of "forgiveness" in this instance) shows weakness and is not even required.

 

News flash, there is "evil" in this world - you don't "forgive" it. You kick it's butt. "Forgiving" an evil person/entity doesn't change their mission - which is evil.

 

I'm so upset that I cannot see straight.

 

I agree in "forgiving" to ease your mind/soul cuz carrying around all that hate and anger is no way to live - but sorry, I can't apply use my belief of "forgiveness" to terrorists...they are not worthy of my "forgiveness" and I pray God stands behind me in my decision!!!

[BC1980]

I think it all depends on how you define forgiveness. To me, forgiveness simply means that I walk away because I realize that you can't repay me for what has occurred. I choose to let it go and move on. I don't think forgiveness means you are saying what the person did was morally okay or that you are going to forget what they did. I don't think forgiveness means I need to try to mend a relationships with a person. I think it's a personal decision to forgive, and I don't think there is a universal right or wrong to it. It really just depends on what allows the person to move on and best heal. I think what I just described is probably more applicable to interpersonal relationships, but I feel that those ideas can apply to bigger ideas too.

 

Since it was Pope Francis, he is coming from a place where his interpretation of the scriptures informs his ideas on forgiveness. So we have to take that into account. Jesus certainly preached forgiveness, even for the most egregious of sinners. I know that forgiving someone who wronged you doesn't feel so great, and I've certainly struggled with doing so. But if one is a Christian, he or she is supposed to attempt to follow what Jesus teaches. I guess a lot of it depends on how literal you want to take the scriptures or how applicable you feel they are to certain situations. Everyone has to come to their own conclusion regarding all of that. I think what Pope Francis said was in line with Christian teaching. But that's just my opinion, and others will disagree, which is fine. Obviously, we are all free to disregard anything he says.

[BC1980]

Are we to forgive thugs who take their own religion and use it as a gesture/tool to recruit others to kill the innocent?

 

I think that if you want to follow Christian teachings (found in the NT), the answer to that question it YES. Jesus himself asked God to forgive those who crucified him. Pope Francis used a similar example of Stephen's martyrdom. So you have two people who forgave those that murdered them. So yeah, if you are going to follow what is taught in the NT, the answer is that we are to forgive any person who kills innocents. I'm not saying any of that is easy to do, but I'm not sure how else to interpret those two examples.

[pureinheart]

I agree with you Gloria, that this possible intention of forgiveness has some darkness to it that is not good for us. That's just my opinion from what I have been hearing about the Pope lately.

 

As for me, I'm working on forgiveness- not to be better than anyone, but to save my own life lol. Unforgiveness kills IMO and keeps me attached to that particular thing that I'm in need to forgive. Forgiving is for me... and I'm doing it to forgive, but it's meant for my own benefit.

 

The release I feel now is amazing.. there's a lot of power in it.

 

*edit* ok didn't comprehend your last sentence... concerning terrorists, I don't really think it's about forgiveness as much as it is for me to give them to God... and then kick some butt!

Edited December 27, 2015 by pureinheart

[MuddyFootprints]

God bless America.

[bluefeather]

I forgive you for caring about what other people think. Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

[Robert Z]

Are we to forgive thugs who take their own religion and use it as a gesture/tool to recruit others to kill the innocent?

 

Yes.

 

 

News flash, there is "evil" in this world - you don't "forgive" it. You kick it's butt. "Forgiving" an evil person/entity doesn't change their mission - which is evil.

 

Not according to Christ's teachings.

[Taramere]

Ok, I am hearing this today:

 

Let God's forgiveness heal your heart, Pope Francis says after Christmas :: Catholic News Agency (CNA)

 

The topic of "forgiveness" is one I take issue with on the regular.

 

I cannot stand people who advocate "forgiveness" in some sort of "I'm better than you" gesture...actually, a day ago I was watching "Dateline" on NBC and the lady said what I suspected for years - which was that she wished forgiveness on the woman who killed her daughter because no one is perfect and the day she sins, she wishes someone will forgive her So, now "forgiveness" is some sort of "I got your back if you got mine since we're all sinners" gesture?

 

I would go along with BC1980's view that it's more about accepting that sometimes a person will do you some sort of wrong that can't be reversed, and it's possible for a person to destroy themselves in the quest for revenge. It doesn't mean you open yourself up as a doormat or a martyr...but when your thinking isn't clouded by thoughts of revenge you're more likely to take action that is

 

a) proportionate

b) well thought out and effective.

 

A lot of religious philosophy strikes me as being quite compatible with useful psychology/human growth and behaviour theories about living your life well. Like any theory, in the wrong hands it can become something that is detrimental to human lives rather than promoting lives lived well. So when you have people preaching forgiveness to a degree where it leaves others feeling "if I can't manage to love my enemies, I've failed as a person" - that's really not going to be helpful. Love is the thing you feel for the people you trust. Who enrich your life more than they create stress in it (bearing in mind that most people we get close to will be sources of stress at times).

 

Enemies are the people you bond with friends and loved ones against. In that sense, they help us love and care about eachother more. They serve as useful sponges for our negative feelings at times....but it doesn't do to spend too much time thinking about them, or depending upon them as something against which we are able to bond with others. If somebody is exhorting you to "love" these enemies, I suppose it might be helpful to reframe "love" as "spend a bit less time and energy hating". But loving them in the way we love our friends and relatives is, I think, an insult to the concept of normal human love.

 

After the Paris attacks, there was lots of coverage given to the words of bereaved people who talked about forgiveness or not hating the terrorists. I can understand the sentiment, but in some ways I felt as though all that media promotion of a loving, forgiving reaction was trying to prescribe how people bereaved by terrorism should feel, think, speak and react. Anger and feelings of hatred would be eminently natural in those circumstances. If people can manage not to feel them then I would say that is the exception rather than the rule. These are very normal, understandable feelings to be managed as part of a healing-from-terrible-bereavement process (as much as anybody can heal in such circumstances), rather than denied. If somebody who has been horribly bereaved does manage to deal with it without experiencing anger and hatred then I think that's incredible - but certainly not something that ought to be held up as the model of how a healthy and well adjusted person is supposed to react to such atrocities.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Taramere

[OpenBook]

News flash, there is "evil" in this world - you don't "forgive" it. You kick it's butt. "Forgiving" an evil person/entity doesn't change their mission - which is evil.

 

I'm so upset that I cannot see straight.

 

I agree in "forgiving" to ease your mind/soul cuz carrying around all that hate and anger is no way to live - but sorry, I can't apply use my belief of "forgiveness" to terrorists...they are not worthy of my "forgiveness" and I pray God stands behind me in my decision!!!

 

Totally hearing & sharing your frustration on this issue. I would have no qualms whatsoever about killing terrorists, if left to my own devices. None.

 

Whenever I have a great big question mark on Christian teachings and how we humanoids are supposed to apply them in our lives, I have (relatively recently) taken to praying for the Holy Spirit to guide me, help me navigate through it.

 

Knowing myself, I also ask for help in keeping my heart, mind, and all 5 senses open to receiving and following that guidance.

 

And then I wait, and rest in Him, and place ALL my faith and belief that He will come through.

 

So far, so good. It works! Every time. Never the way I think it will, but it works.

 

I still have lots of questions. But I do feel a lot more peaceful, and confident, and calm, and lower blood pressure, working my way through life. It helps. It helps a lot.

[Robert Z]

It doesn't mean you open yourself up as a doormat or a martyr...

 

 

Yes, it does. And this is demonstrated in the scriptures time and time again.

 

 

Wasn't Jesus a doormat? Did he fight back? In fact he healed the ear of the soldier that was cut off by Peter when the soldiers came. And aren't his followers supposed to live like Christ?

 

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, not to fight back.

[Taramere]

Yes, it does. And this is demonstrated in the scriptures time and time again.

 

 

Wasn't Jesus a doormat? Did he fight back? In fact he healed the ear of the soldier that was cut off by Peter when the soldiers came. And aren't his followers supposed to live like Christ?

 

I'm talking about forgiveness generally - rather than forgiveness as it's taught by Christianity.

 

However, re what you're saying...no he didn't fight against the people arresting him. There was a scripture that had to be fulfilled,and he didn't want anybody interfering with that. His disciples carried swords, and he condoned them carrying swords - urging them to buy a couple of swords before he was crucified, but he told them not to use those swords against those arresting them...specifically because there was a prophecy that had to be carried out. EG...

 

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

 

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, not to fight back.

 

That is about telling people not to seek revenge. Not to retaliate in kind. There's a difference between defending oneself from serious injury and seeking revenge after an insult.

 

One can only guess at why he would suggest turning the other cheek for it also to be slapped, but my guess would be that such a gesture would be intended to shame the person who was doing the slapping - or to indicate "I'm not shamed by your slap", or it could even be perceived as indifference to pain. I would certainly see it as a gesture of defiance more than a "doormat gesture".

 

A slap isn't life threatening. The fact that somebody would advocate turning the other cheek to a slap doesn't mean they would say "if somebody takes out a knife, just hold your hands up and let them run that knife right through you". The God of the Old Testament wasn't at all averse to ordering people to go to war. "Wipe them out!" God would order, quite gloatingly from the sound of things. And while a gentler sort of entity, Jesus was presented as a figure whose word clarified the Old Testament rather than replacing it.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Taramere

[TheFinalWord]

We should forgive others for our own healing and as a witness to others. For example, when Christ said if you are asked to carry armor for one mile, do it for two. It's important to understand the context of that passage. The Romans had occupied Israel. The roman soldiers could force the Jews to carry their armor for a mile (called impressment). It was considered an act of humiliation to carry your conqueror's armor. Christ said instead of one mile, do it for two.

 

You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

 

Why did he say that? As Christ expounded, anyone can love those that love them. But look at God, he gives good gifts to those that hate him. We should emulate God, who causes his sun to shine on the just and the unjust.

 

As Christians, we should however recognize that personal retaliation is not within our right.

 

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

However, loving your enemies or forgiving others (a personal action) in order to manifest healing and love, does not mean crimes such as murder should go unpunished or that God wants us to turn a blind eye to evil. Paul explained in Romans.

 

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

 

God is the ultimate judge and government is the medium by which most justice is administered in this life. Government is not perfect, and there are times when God will also judge governments and nations, but that is another post.

Edited December 28, 2015 by TheFinalWord