A question for Christians.

[NGC1300]

So, we are told "Jesus died for our sins". He is the savior of mankind; the only path to redemption, we are told.

 

But why couldn't God just forgive our sins without condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???

 

I mean, we are presumably talking about the divine here. The pinnacle of morality. The pinnacle of righteousness. We are talking about an entity that is said to be omnipotent.

 

So again, why not just just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

[GorillaTheater]

It's a great question, and one of the biggest issues I have with respect to Christian beliefs. You'll typically get one of two answers:

 

 

1) The Bible, specifically in Hebrews, talks about the shedding of blood being necessary for the covering of sin. So you either accept that at face value or not. I'd opt for the latter, because it seems pretty obviously barbaric to me.

 

 

2) The Christians who are troubled with this rationale will often deal with it by saying "God's ways are not our ways." In other words what makes sense to God may well make no sense to us. Also not satisfactory from my perspective, since it seems like a cop-out on a very significant point.

 

 

But there is a rationale which makes sense to me. In Acts it talks about the number of folks who saw the resurrected Jesus in the flesh before he ascended. Hundreds, I believe it says. The number of testimonials would lend pretty significant weight that the hand of the divine was at work, that this guy who was dead was now alive. In other words, Jesus died a pretty thorough and graphic death so that when he reappeared, it would make a pretty widespread impact. If the Bible is to be believed, this new religion took off numerically in a big way from that point.

 

 

Whether you believe any of this stuff or not, the explanation I offer at least makes some logical sense, "logical" given a certain suspension of belief, of course.

[pureinheart]

It's a great question, and one of the biggest issues I have with respect to Christian beliefs. You'll typically get one of two answers:

 

 

1) The Bible, specifically in Hebrews, talks about the shedding of blood being necessary for the covering of sin. So you either accept that at face value or not. I'd opt for the latter, because it seems pretty obviously barbaric to me.

 

 

2) The Christians who are troubled with this rationale will often deal with it by saying "God's ways are not our ways." In other words what makes sense to God may well make no sense to us. Also not satisfactory from my perspective, since it seems like a cop-out on a very significant point.

 

 

 

Isn't man pretty barbaric though?

 

#2... not a cop-out, there's just not a human answer.

[GorillaTheater]

Isn't man pretty barbaric though?

 

 

Sure, but I hope we expect more from our deities. One of the OT beefs against Baal worship was child sacrifice. Which is a little ironic.

[MightyPen]

So, we are told "Jesus died for our sins". He is the savior of mankind; the only path to redemption, we are told.

 

But why couldn't God just forgive our sins without condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???

 

I mean, we are presumably talking about the divine here. The pinnacle of morality. The pinnacle of righteousness. We are talking about an entity that is said to be omnipotent.

 

So again, why not just just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

 

 

Also, keep in mind that God would have known from the beginning that the humans he/she/it created were going to screw up.

 

 

The whole thing was inevitable. It's like a kid playing with GI Joes and making up the "plot" as he goes along. The GJ Joes have no input in the matter.

Edited December 17, 2015 by MightyPen

[pureinheart]

Sure, but I hope we expect more from our deities. One of the OT beefs against Baal worship was child sacrifice. Which is a little ironic.

 

Jesus was an adult though, and chose to lay down His life.

[GorillaTheater]

Jesus was an adult though, and chose to lay down His life.

 

 

A fair point, but the question remains as to why it was God's will that he lay down His life.

[GorillaTheater]

And I want to point out that I almost didn't reply to the OP because I saw he's posted other threads regarding religion that I'd characterize as attacks threads. I'm not interested in attacking religion or Christianity specifically, but I do want to understand it.

 

 

I've read the Bible pretty substantially. I wanted to believe and while I was young I did. But there are topics like this that I could never wrap my head around.

[TheFinalWord]

 

But why couldn't God just forgive our sins without condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???

 

I mean, we are presumably talking about the divine here. The pinnacle of morality. The pinnacle of righteousness. We are talking about an entity that is said to be omnipotent.

 

So again, why not just just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

 

I hope I am not mis-representing you, but the question can be more easily addressed by breaking up your first question into two parts:

 

"But why couldn't God just forgive our sins"

 

I think this question comes from a general disconnect from the severity of sin.

 

Someone commits a rape (a sin that we also translate to a human criminal offense).

 

Why couldn't a judge, who has the power to do so, just pardon someone from their prison sentence?

 

"condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???"

 

This is a bit more theological.

 

This is also linked to the first part of your question, but several reasons. One, it was not God that condemned him, it was the people.

Both Jew and Gentile (Romans). Not only did they condemn him, but they condemned him when he was innocent of any crime (sin). At his trial, the people demanded to have Barabas, a murderer and bandit, instead of Jesus.

 

Second, it showed the severity of sin. God would not even spare his own Son from the consequences of sin. Some is also cultural. Crucifixion was not only painful, but also humiliating. Sin is humiliating, painful, and leads to death, like crucifixion. Why the middle east? That goes a lot more in-depth, but the Messiah had to come from the nation of Israel.

Edited December 17, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

A fair point, but the question remains as to why it was God's will that he lay down His life.

 

 

Why did the sacrificial system require a blood sacrifice?

 

This was one thing I found, but still looking for something that goes more in-depth.

[pureinheart]

I hope I am not mis-representing you, but the question can be more easily addressed by breaking up your first question into two parts:

 

"But why couldn't God just forgive our sins"

 

I think this question comes from a general disconnect from the severity of sin.

 

Someone commits a rape (a sin that we also translate to a human criminal offense).

 

Why couldn't a judge, who has the power to do so, just pardon someone from their prison sentence?

 

"condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???"

 

This is a bit more theological.

 

This is also linked to the first part of your question, but several reasons. One, it was not God that condemned him, it was the people.

Both Jew and Gentile (Romans). Not only did they condemn him, but they condemned him when he was innocent of any crime (sin). At his trial, the people demanded to have Barabas, a murderer and bandit, instead of Jesus.

 

Second, it showed the severity of sin. God would not even spare his own Son from the consequences of sin. Some is also cultural. Crucifixion was not only painful, but also humiliating. Sin is humiliating, painful, and leads to death, like crucifixion. Why the middle east? That goes a lot more in-depth, but the Messiah had to come from the nation of Israel.

 

You're my hero lol- this is an awesome explanation...

[pureinheart]

I think I've read Daniel Pipes stuff before and liked most of it.

 

"Why can't God forgive sin without the need for a sacrifice?" :: Reader comments at Daniel Pipes

[OpenBook]

A fair point, but the question remains as to why it was God's will that he lay down His life.

 

This point actually helps me accept the mystery and adopt that "suspension of disbelief." The very fact that God would be willing to sacrifice His only Son. For us - US?? - a bunch of wretched sinners. It was the way that He chose to show us how very much He loves us.

 

Like a best friend would say to the other: I would die for you.

 

I have also heard the argument that it happened because God is just, and therefore can't just let wicked things (i.e., our sins) go without consequences. It somehow righted the balance. I don't know what to do with this one.

[NGC1300]

This point actually helps me accept the mystery and adopt that "suspension of disbelief." The very fact that God would be willing to sacrifice His only Son. For us - US?? - a bunch of wretched sinners. It was the way that He chose to show us how very much He loves us.

 

Yet if any one of us killed our child, we would get life in prison.

 

Sure, this seems a silly point. But it does show we give abhorrent behavior a pass, as long we believe that a god approves it. God could commit the worst atrocities imaginable, and still his followers would proclaim his righteousness, and give justification for the atrocities.

 

This is why religion can be very dangerous. It makes otherwise intelligent people commit or condone evil acts.

[Greene0Kelly]

You cannot offer your child because your child is not holy as Jesus is.

 

 

John 20:29

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

[truthtripper]

So, we are told "Jesus died for our sins". He is the savior of mankind; the only path to redemption, we are told.

 

But why couldn't God just forgive our sins without condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???

 

I mean, we are presumably talking about the divine here. The pinnacle of morality. The pinnacle of righteousness. We are talking about an entity that is said to be omnipotent.

 

So again, why not just just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

It was common at that time for people to be tortured and crucified just as Jesus was, so how does that make him special? What about all the other poor souls?

[NGC1300]

"But why couldn't God just forgive our sins"

 

I think this question comes from a general disconnect from the severity of sin.

 

Someone commits a rape (a sin that we also translate to a human criminal offense).

 

Why couldn't a judge, who has the power to do so, just pardon someone from their prison sentence?

 

How on Earth is this an appropriate analogy?

 

My issue isn't with the forgiveness or 'pardon'; it's with the human sacrifice that must accompany it. I don't see judges condemning anyone to suffer and die for crimes committed by someone else, so....???

 

it was not God that condemned him

 

But it ultimately was. See John 3:16. It doesn't say the Romans sacrificed Jesus; it says God did.

[TheFinalWord]

How on Earth is this an appropriate analogy?

 

My issue isn't with the forgiveness or 'pardon'; it's with the human sacrifice that must accompany it. I don't see judges condemning anyone to suffer and die for crimes committed by someone else, so....???

 

Plenty of innocent people have been wrongly convicted of crimes of which they were innocent.

 

But it ultimately was. See John 3:16. It doesn't say the Romans sacrificed Jesus; it says God did.

 

Read the verses before and after and the rest of the New Testament.

 

But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

Edited December 22, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[NGC1300]

Plenty of innocent criminals have been wrongly fully convicted of crimes of which they were innocent.

 

Key word: wrongfully.

 

But you are NOT saying it's wrong. You are advocating (or defending) this type of scapegoating, so long as you believe it to be of divine origin. I see once again that God gets a pass for what we would otherwise deem "wrongful" behavior.

[TheFinalWord]

Key word: wrongfully.

 

But you are NOT saying it's wrong. You are advocating (or defending)this type of scapegoating, so long as you believe it to be of divine origin. I see once again that God gets a pass for what we would otherwise deem "wrongful" behavior.

 

You asked why God couldn't just pardon us without the need for us to pay for the crimes (sins) we've committed. Why would any human judge do that let alone God?

 

You then said, judges don't condemn innocent people. Sure they do, all the time. You're mixing up us being rightfully judged for our sins and Christ being wrongfully condemned by man and declared innocent by God (evidenced by the Resurrection).

 

I have no idea what you are talking about with God getting a free pass.

Edited December 23, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[AspenBaldwin]

why not just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

 

That stuff was there so then later on Mel Gibson could make a film about it.

[mightycpa]

So, we are told "Jesus died for our sins". He is the savior of mankind; the only path to redemption, we are told.

 

But why couldn't God just forgive our sins without condemning his son to a bloody human sacrifice in the middle east???

 

I mean, we are presumably talking about the divine here. The pinnacle of morality. The pinnacle of righteousness. We are talking about an entity that is said to be omnipotent.

 

So again, why not just just forgive mankind his sins, and skip the whole torture and crucifixion of his son?

I think that if you're an omnipotent being, and you're used to the idea of eternity, that a few hours of pain and suffering really don't mean much. Death can't scare you.

 

You're looking at it from an earthly perspective, and He's got the big picture in mind.

[NGC1300]

You asked why God couldn't just pardon us without the need for us to pay for the crimes (sins) we've committed. Why would any human judge do that let alone God?

 

Except that's not what I asked. I asked why torturing and killing someone was necessary for God to forgive mankind his sins. You have avoided this question almost entirely, and have simply answered we "must pay", or "well a judge wouldn't let a criminal off". Weak sauce.

 

You then said, judges don't condemn innocent people.

 

I figured most intelligent adults would realize I was speaking of scapegoating, since that is what we are discussing. I'm so sorry you got the impression I believed nobody has ever been wrongfully convicted.

[TheFinalWord]

Except that's not what I asked. I asked why torturing and killing someone was necessary for God to forgive mankind his sins. You have avoided this question almost entirely, and have simply answered we "must pay", or "well a judge wouldn't let a criminal off". Weak sauce.

 

Christ's death wasn't necessary, but it was sufficient.

 

God could have done nothing, and we would remain in our sins. An option, yes or no?

We could each not sin, and Christ would not be necessary. An option yes or no?

 

Why not the first? God loves us. God does not want any to perish, but want all people to freely chose Him.

Why not the second? We chose to sin out of our own free will.

 

I figured most intelligent adults would realize I was speaking of scapegoating, since that is what we are discussing. I'm so sorry you got the impression I believed nobody has ever been wrongfully convicted.

 

Your issue seems to be, why would Jesus take our sins in our place? Why would someone that is perfect take on the sins of the most vile person? Why couldn't have God come up with some other system? Furthermore, why did his taking our place have to include his shame and death? What you are experiencing is the natural offense illustrated by the cross.

 

Paul explains:

 

For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God

 

This is cross is part of the mystery of the Grace of God. Paul explains it like so:

 

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

The cross shows more than the love of God, it also shows the wrath of God. The wages of sin is death. The Lord is a God of holiness. He will not tolerate any sin, it is just His eternal nature. Christ, though he was innocent, took our sin upon Himself. BTW, that physical pain Christ experienced, was nothing compared to the spiritual pain Christ felt when we was separated from God (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?). God showed He was innocent by not allowing him to remain dead. God furthermore showed this by exalting Him to the highest place of honor.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

The cross also has many other theological implications about how we are to live our new life in Christ. But I'm not sure if you are interested?

Edited December 23, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[todreaminblue]

im not really knowledgable on bible verses.....i was told the one mentioned by gorilla theatre about the sin being covered by the shedding of jesus blood....

 

what i really feel though is there is so much shedding of blood in the world that has no reason to be happening......we watch the news and see beheadings and torture and rape of innocents and the murders of children by children and we go on with our days without really giving much thought to the senselessness of growing ill will towards all humanity and death...we say that's horrible, avert our eyes to avoid our hearts from breaking....and remind ourselves we need petrol for work the next day.....it has become so commonplace to view senseless killing.....

 

 

then theres the bible...one man gave his life willingly for all our sins to be forgiven.....he knew he was going to die......his will wasnt his own it was the will of his fathers that he held above his own life.....

 

 

doesnt seem strange or unusual to me.........when firefighters around the world rush into burning buildings to save lives.....when many people risk their own lives to save others..soldiers.....firefighters...life guards......who would die for others...without question...where does that drive to forgo their own lives come from....that selflessness.....is divine.....

 

why is it so strange that one beautiful and gracious man that is jesus would die for all....to honor his fathers will.....when there is so much senseless killing in the world by people who are ultimately forgiven if they repent...it makes sense to me that one man who would have to die to cover sins of the multitude done by the billions........that human sacrifice would need to be spotless ...untainted...the sacrifice would have to one of a great magnitude....that makes sense to me..there is only one man it could have been who was borne to basically die for us...he died with a perfect faith and with love for all humanity...as god obviously loves us enough to sacrifice his son and jesus...he died willingly ........deb