BC1980 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I've been watching the coverage of Pope Francis' visit to the US and his address to Congress. I've started to wonder if the Pope is nothing more than a sentimental figurehead. Do Catholics actually use the Pope as a guide to decision making? For instance, the Pope is against birth control, but the majority of US Catholics use birth control. So do Catholics only follow him when they personally agree? To some extent, I think we all practice a form of moral relativism when it comes to our personal decisions. When I ask if anyone cares what he thinks, I'm wondering if Catholics will actually change their beliefs or practices based on him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Re: the Pope....saw the link to this on friend's FB page last night, watched it and learned so much, plan to watch again. Is fascinating and intriguing! Leopard Vision (Vol 1) by TheForerunner777 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Re: the Pope....saw the link to this on friend's FB page last night, watched it and learned so much, plan to watch again. Is fascinating and intriguing! Leopard Vision (Vol 1) by TheForerunner777 I watched about 20 minutes of the video, but I don't have time to watch the entire thing today. Can you give me the gist of it? Is it basically arguing that the Pope is the Antichrist? You'd probably be interested Martin Luther if you believe that. The Catholic Church does have quite a history of corruption unfortunately. Pope Francis seems like a nice guy though. I don't agree with his views on women and gays though. I'm really more interested in how Catholics view the Pope today. Are his teachings binding to them, or is he just a sentimental grandfatherly type of figurehead that people dismiss when it actually comes to his teachings? I saw an interview with Chris Christie where he said that the Pope doesn't influence his fiscal policy. I'm just wondering what exactly the Pope does influence. Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I watched about 20 minutes of the video, but I don't have time to watch the entire thing today. Can you give me the gist of it? Is it basically arguing that the Pope is the Antichrist? You'd probably be interested Martin Luther if you believe that. The Catholic Church does have quite a history of corruption unfortunately. Pope Francis seems like a nice guy though. I don't agree with his views on women and gays though. I'm really more interested in how Catholics view the Pope today. Are his teachings binding to them, or is he just a sentimental grandfatherly type of figurehead that people dismiss when it actually comes to his teachings? I saw an interview with Chris Christie where he said that the Pope doesn't influence his fiscal policy. I'm just wondering what exactly the Pope does influence. I'll try to, BC. I'm not Catholic but maybe some Catholics will post and give you their viewpoints on how they view the Pope. I watched the video very late last night. Basically, there was a lot to assimilate (history of the church and it's influence on the world and the USA, and scripture references that are prophetic and surprisingly accurately paralleling what seems to be taking place) is why I want to go back over it. My neighbor is Catholic and quite well-connected politically (local and national level) and she's been concerned and active in trying to keep refugees who are not properly vetted out of our community as she tells me we'll be responsible for their upkeep (housing, food, medical, etc.) and they are promised they don't have to assimilate into our culture. She told me the Catholic church is one of the main organizations involved in trying to bring them into the US and individuals in the church (priests and nuns) are being paid very large amounts of money to assist in this process. She stated to me that even though she's Catholic this fact (that they're getting so much government money to bring these people into the country so it's not as altruistic a venture as it's being made out to be by some) has bothered her tremendously. I'm not posting that I know this to be fact but merely that my Catholic neighbor has told me this. Knowing that a lot of government money is being paid to bring these groups in I was particularly interested to read online where, if I recall correctly, they were reporting on the Pope's speech to congress in which he was encouraging us to open our country to the refugees so I connected that to the information my neighbor had given me. I have other friends I think the world of who are Catholic but only one of them has shared their thoughts about the Pope with me and that was just to say the friend was disappointed in the Pope delving into the political arena. I just listened, didn't really discuss the issue with said friend. Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Pleased that you are questioning, it shows interest with an open mind. Pope Francis is chosen by his peers and acts in accordance with the vatican giidelines. He is revered for his practicing what he preaches. For most practicing Catholics He is holy and chooses the good of the whole over the current quirks of various nations. While some catholics are progressive in modern notions, The Pope does consider what is best overall. And last I read he spoke diplomatically on gay rights and human challenges. For the most part he is embracing change in order to create harmony. I do not judge him on the past history of the church. He deserves no blood on his hands for things he did not create or support. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Pleased that you are questioning, it shows interest with an open mind. Pope Francis is chosen by his peers and acts in accordance with the vatican giidelines. He is revered for his practicing what he preaches. For most practicing Catholics He is holy and chooses the good of the whole over the current quirks of various nations. While some catholics are progressive in modern notions, The Pope does consider what is best overall. And last I read he spoke diplomatically on gay rights and human challenges. For the most part he is embracing change in order to create harmony. I do not judge him on the past history of the church. He deserves no blood on his hands for things he did not create or support. I think he is trying to introduce the idea of change to the Catholic Church, but he knows he can't do it all at once. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 I have other friends I think the world of who are Catholic but only one of them has shared their thoughts about the Pope with me and that was just to say the friend was disappointed in the Pope delving into the political arena. I just listened, didn't really discuss the issue with said friend. I wonder if we (those of us from the US) are uncomfortable with the Pope getting political because we are so used to separation of church and state. I do know a couple that converted to Catholicism, and they are very devout. They did mention birth control and said that if they had it to do over again, they would not use birth control. Of course, it's easy to say that in hindsight when you are past your child bearing years. I'm just wondering if it's okay to pick and choose what to follow the Pope on. Does one's own choices supersede the Pope? And if so, what is his function? What is the purpose of the Pope having a view on anything if it's ultimately up to the individual to decide for him/herself? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 BC1980, I think you're right that many of us are uncomfortable with a religious entity getting political. Especially since that's the reason we came to America, was to escape rule by a church/state institution. It would be interesting to read what some Catholics have to say in answer to your very good questions. I wonder if the Pope is considered within the Catholic Church to be more authoritative than the Bible? Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I wonder if we (those of us from the US) are uncomfortable with the Pope getting political because we are so used to separation of church and state. I do know a couple that converted to Catholicism, and they are very devout. They did mention birth control and said that if they had it to do over again, they would not use birth control. Of course, it's easy to say that in hindsight when you are past your child bearing years. I'm just wondering if it's okay to pick and choose what to follow the Pope on. Does one's own choices supersede the Pope? And if so, what is his function? What is the purpose of the Pope having a view on anything if it's ultimately up to the individual to decide for him/herself? Politically the Pope may suggest a position but he doesn't actually take one and the faithful are free to go with their conscious. His statements on global warming or taxing people for the government to give so-called social justice are not binding Personally on morals, the personal use of birth control, aborting a child, witnessing at a same sex wedding, not going to mass... they are supposed to toe the line with Catholic doctrine or they are supposed to be in a sinful state thus heading toward purgatory or hell if they should die before it is resolved by the confession and reconciliation sacramental cycle. What can't be say is what percentage actually lives the fundamental Catholic life and what percentage live the so called cafeteria Catholic path and prefer the form of worship found in Catholic or the high churches and stay there. It might be either out of worship style preference or to keep peace with the extended family, many who might be part of the fundamentalist wing and fear their family members who leave the church are going to hell upon death. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I think he is trying to introduce the idea of change to the Catholic Church, but he knows he can't do it all at once. Correct, slow and steady is his method. Please keep in mind that American Practices of Catholicism have veered from the European style that still holds tenaciously to the old ways and old doctrines. There in lays his challenge. He has demonstrated his desire to be amongst the people , for we are each serving the Lord. Even Jesus spoke amongst the counsels in his time. He made statements to them and the Pope is no different. Its almost hypocritical for a person to say its okay for a political person to announce their religious views yet a Religious person cannot speak of their suggestions to a political regime? When the Pope spoke in Washington He made guiding suggestions and pleas. A person is free to absorb that message or dismiss it. The point is he spoke in such a gracious way without demanding. I Like to think in terms of "Don't shoot the Messenger", Instead absorb the message... Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) I wonder if the Pope is considered within the Catholic Church to be more authoritative than the Bible? Yes, Catholics believe Jesus gave the "keys to the kingdom of heaven" to the Pope. It was first given to Peter and passed down to each Pope throughout the ages. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." 20 Matthew 16:19 Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert Z 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 (edited) What is the purpose of the Pope having a view on anything if it's ultimately up to the individual to decide for him/herself? It isn't. It's just that a lot of people don't understand their own faith. People believe whatever they want to believe and rationalize away any dilemmas or cognitive dissonance. Funny, almost everyone on CNN is Catholic. Edited September 25, 2015 by Robert Z 1 Link to post Share on other sites
d0nnivain Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Every organization needs a leader so yes I think the Pope is important. He's also a symbol. To follow your logic, because some people don't follow the teaching of the Church, we should abolish the Pope, does that mean because some people break the law we should abolish the President or the Prime Minister? Of course not. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I think the Pope's relevance depends on the level and type of Catholicism one practices. I have Catholic friends who haven't been to a mass in decades, and I have Catholic friends who follow religiously (ha, pun!) what the Church and the Pope do. In times past, the Pope and Priests WERE the "Word" because most people couldn't read. That had pluses and minuses. Honestly, I understand the logic of having a Pope more than I do the idea of worshiping Mary (a human being) and praying to saints (who are good humans beings who died). Link to post Share on other sites
Haydn Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 He`s more like a rock star than someone who has Gods ear. I bet when they chat and he asks `how was it God?` `Always leave them wanting more Francis my boy` Or Franny if he was British. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Every organization needs a leader so yes I think the Pope is important. He's also a symbol. To follow your logic, because some people don't follow the teaching of the Church, we should abolish the Pope, does that mean because some people break the law we should abolish the President or the Prime Minister? Of course not. I was thinking he might be like the Queen of England. I really don't know what either of them do though. I'm sure he does a lot that I don't know about. Maybe I should have asked if he is necessary as the moral guide of the church. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Politically the Pope may suggest a position but he doesn't actually take one and the faithful are free to go with their conscious. His statements on global warming or taxing people for the government to give so-called social justice are not binding Personally on morals, the personal use of birth control, aborting a child, witnessing at a same sex wedding, not going to mass... they are supposed to toe the line with Catholic doctrine or they are supposed to be in a sinful state thus heading toward purgatory or hell if they should die before it is resolved by the confession and reconciliation sacramental cycle. What can't be say is what percentage actually lives the fundamental Catholic life and what percentage live the so called cafeteria Catholic path and prefer the form of worship found in Catholic or the high churches and stay there. It might be either out of worship style preference or to keep peace with the extended family, many who might be part of the fundamentalist wing and fear their family members who leave the church are going to hell upon death. Is there an official doctrine that says Catholics must fall in line with the Pope's teachings? Link to post Share on other sites
Haydn Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 I was thinking he might be like the Queen of England. I really don't know what either of them do though. I'm sure he does a lot that I don't know about. Maybe I should have asked if he is necessary as the moral guide of the church. Oh Lizzie does loads. Bless her. American tourists pay for her vast array of enormous abodes. Nice work if you can get it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Is there an official doctrine that says Catholics must fall in line with the Pope's teachings? There are his teachings such as we are killing ourselves through global warming where no he is just another teacher, but with a higher profile. But then there are what Catholic doctrine says is the infallible statements about faith like going to a same sex wedding or the wedding of a previously divorced person. In which case they are supposed to follow. And when you get down to it if an Iman, Billy Graham, a Rabbi, the Dali Lama the President of the Mormon Church.... or you disagree the Pope and the Catholic teaching is thought to have been supernaturally made correct. Be it infant baptism, sexual ethics and types of play between a husband and wife and many other things Catholics consider fall under faith and morals. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Is there an official doctrine that says Catholics must fall in line with the Pope's teachings? You did understand that he is believed to hold the keys to heaven and hell, right? What more doctrine could you want? I even provided the passage on which the doctrine is based. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Oh Lizzie does loads. Bless her. American tourists pay for her vast array of enormous abodes. Nice work if you can get it. Yes, I have read somewhere that the royal family actually makes money for the economy via tourism. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BC1980 Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 There are his teachings such as we are killing ourselves through global warming where no he is just another teacher, but with a higher profile. But then there are what Catholic doctrine says is the infallible statements about faith like going to a same sex wedding or the wedding of a previously divorced person. In which case they are supposed to follow. And when you get down to it if an Iman, Billy Graham, a Rabbi, the Dali Lama the President of the Mormon Church.... or you disagree the Pope and the Catholic teaching is thought to have been supernaturally made correct. Be it infant baptism, sexual ethics and types of play between a husband and wife and many other things Catholics consider fall under faith and morals. Thanks. That explained it well. I wonder how many Catholics feel that their own conscience can supersede the Pope. Link to post Share on other sites
Tayla Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 bc1980, to correct a poster who previously stated the doctrine of the popes role, I encourage you to read the vatican council notes. They clarify the duties of the papalcy and the guidelines. As a catholic I've never heard uttered or read that the Pope holds the keys metaphorically or otherwise... We are equal in the kingdom of heaven..and will atone ... The only thing I have a disagreement with is that the pope is infallible.... it goes against the concept of humility.. which even the most book smart can use a dose of when they err. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Quiet Storm Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I am not religious, but I do see how the pope brings people together. It's nice seeing everyone happy. He brings out love, acceptance, helping people, forgiveness... I see the value in that, even if I don't believe in God. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
joystickd Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Pope is just a way for Rome to continue to have some control. A Middle Eastern religion having a leader in Rome. That's like having the headquarters of the KKK in Compton lol. Link to post Share on other sites
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