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View from an agnostic


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As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

For example, one person told me my daughter's depression was due to her being possessed by a demon, and that if i had really wanted to help her, I should have taken her to church.

 

I try to be nice to people whether or not I agree with their religion. We get people coming to our door ( usually mormons of jehova's witnesses) trying to give me literature. i try and be polite, and look at in terms of they genuinely believe they are helping people and doing good in the world. I stuck a Dawin fish on the front door so they would know my beliefs, and they don't come so often.

 

I've been polite to proselytizers all the way from born again Christians to friends of Fallon Gong, but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

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I've been polite to proselytizers all the way from born again Christians to friends of Fallon Gong, but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them?

 

That's simple. Your disbelief in organized religion is a threat to their self-created delusion in a higher power. People who are religious don't think for themselves. They use religion to hide behind, to justify their behavior (whether it's moral or immoral).

 

Whereas, atheists (like me) and agnostics (like you) question the purpose and validity of organized religion. We see its flaws and aren't afraid to seek answers outside of organized religion, which I view as a gigantic cult meant to brainwash and control people using fear and lies. Catholicism and Scientology comes to mind as two major offenders. Religion is used more for evil purposes than good ones.

 

I think Christian missionaries are evil. Christian missionaries are obsessed with converting EVERYONE from every culture. They remind me of the sci-fi characters The Borg, whose motto is, "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." Christian missionaries go to foreign countries with the intent to destroy that country's culture and spirituality by forcing them to adhere to Christianity in the name of God. Meanwhile, a culture is destroyed and that's justified in the name of religion. Missionaries destroyed African culture. Just completely decimated it like a swarm of locusts to a farmer's crop. Who died and made Christians the ONLY religion?

 

Fear. Fear is the reason why religious people feel threatened by those who dare to question their choice of spiritual belief system: Christianity etc.,. Reality --- that there is no God, no true religion -- is too frightening for those kinds of people to handle. They can't live in a diverse world. They need everyone to believe the same things as they do, or they feel that their safety is threatened. It's insane.

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As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

For example, one person told me my daughter's depression was due to her being possessed by a demon, and that if i had really wanted to help her, I should have taken her to church.

 

Truncated ~ I'm sorry about your experiences with some believers. From what I can see, there are people that can irk us from every walk of life. I'm sure there have even been some agnostics that can rub you the wrong way.

 

I think it's important to try and remember that most religious believers who are calmly sharing information with you about their faith probably aren't doing so with bad intentions (there are exceptions to every rule, but in general I mean). I think most people are genuinely wanting you to have a better experience on earth, and try to offer what they think a good suggestion is. Or at least share what has worked in their own lives.

 

For example, most Christian believers really do think that belief in Jesus, church attendance, and prayer against Satanic spirits can help with depression. I don't think that's anything against your daughter, or your way of intervening. I just think Christians are looking at it from a spiritual perspective, and you clearly aren't. If your way of helping your daughter isn't working, they probably think they know an alternate, effective treatment.

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

OP, if you're at home and you make a batch of cookies with your daughters but a dash of rat poison falls into the batch, would you still call that batch of cookie dough "good" or would it be tainted?

 

IMO, most people wouldn't consider that batch good any longer. They would recognize that the whole batch is probably affected by that rat poison.

 

That's how Christian believers view sin. It's a part of EVERY human's condition. We're all affected by it. Any Christian that makes you feel like only YOU are a sinner from a judgmental, high-horse point of view is probably not walking closely with Jesus. Because most Christians recognize that we're all dealing with the evilness of sin in our lives.

 

The only difference is that Christians have been forgiven, because they ask God for forgiveness for that sin. It's always a constant battle to try and resist sinful temptations, but God is there to support and help us with that battle.

 

Most Christians have only compassion for the fact that (in our opinion :)) you don't have that same support to get through the more difficult aspects of life.

 

Hope that helps, truncated. Again, I'm sorry you feel persecuted.

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but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

Because they don't think you have a right to believe what you want. If you don't believe what is donned from on high, then you are going to hell. And because you are a poor helpless soul who doesn't enjoy the enlightenment they think they enjoy, you are just being fooled by Satan.

 

 

They know a magic secret and you don't. ;)

 

 

Interestingly, Amway has much the same philosophy! :laugh:

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Because they don't think you have a right to believe what you want. If you don't believe what is donned from on high, then you are going to hell. And because you are a poor helpless soul who doesn't enjoy the enlightenment they think they enjoy, you are just being fooled by Satan.

 

 

They know a magic secret and you don't. ;)

 

 

Interestingly, Amway has much the same philosophy! :laugh:

 

+1 Robert Z! That's what I can't stand about religious people. Their hypocrisy. Their entitlement. Their arrogance.

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pureinheart

I've been polite to proselytizers all the way from born again Christians to friends of Fallon Gong, but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

 

What I am seeing here is you don't like to be challenged. With so many things where I've been challenged, either the challenge will prove it to be better or I am more than ok with where I'm at. It's actually a good thing to be challenged... I find it odd with this 'new enlightened' world how 'intolerant' it actually is and has become.

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Probably says more about the individuals than any particular ideology.

 

An antithetical example would be an agnostic proselytizing to religious people about their belief system being whooey. That's an individual. Groups are formed up of individuals.

 

Personally, in life, I've found very few, in fact infinitesimally few, people who try to bend me to their belief systems. The closest I came was 12 years of religious school as a child. Even then, mileage varied widely, due to everyone being an individual.

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What I am seeing here is you don't like to be challenged. With so many things where I've been challenged, either the challenge will prove it to be better or I am more than ok with where I'm at. It's actually a good thing to be challenged... I find it odd with this 'new enlightened' world how 'intolerant' it actually is and has become.

 

It can be hard to be challenged. There are areas where I'm open to being challenged, but in those cases, I'm not really being "challenged" because I'm open to it :):p:). There are other areas where I'm dead set on something, and God's to working on my heart little by little to help me be more flexible.

 

I actually love when people are passionately affected by religion. To me, that speaks to the fact that they are thinking about these topics, and it's important to them. As God reminds us, the lukewarm are the ones to worry about. :o

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pureinheart

 

I actually love when people are passionately affected by religion. To me, that speaks to the fact that they are thinking about these topics, and it's important to them. As God reminds us, the lukewarm are the ones to worry about. :o

 

Who are the lukewarm though?

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pureinheart
Probably says more about the individuals than any particular ideology.

 

An antithetical example would be an agnostic proselytizing to religious people about their belief system being whooey. That's an individual. Groups are formed up of individuals.

 

Personally, in life, I've found very few, in fact infinitesimally few, people who try to bend me to their belief systems. The closest I came was 12 years of religious school as a child. Even then, mileage varied widely, due to everyone being an individual.

 

You know CH, I've not been called to evangelize, probably because of being so ornery and my lifestyle being much like King Davids... I have been in some major sin in my life.

 

Even though I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are as real as the nose on your face, personally I've lost the desire to even care if someone is saved or not... I've seen the miracles, so many that God is undeniable.. I am that sure, but really don't want to waste my time trying to convince someone that my God is real. I will, however speak if God says so, because IMO He is moving in that individual and is intending to use me in that persons salvation.

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What I am seeing here is you don't like to be challenged. With so many things where I've been challenged, either the challenge will prove it to be better or I am more than ok with where I'm at. It's actually a good thing to be challenged... I find it odd with this 'new enlightened' world how 'intolerant' it actually is and has become.

 

It's not an issue of being challenged. I can take that.

 

It's the lack of respect by some religious people and their need to inject their beliefs into my life.

 

I try and be polite, and see no value in insulting them. I have no problem with their beliefs if they bring them comfort and are used as a reason to do good in the world.

 

I have my own views on religion that differ greatly form theirs, but don't ridicule them, and I don't expect them to think and feel the way I do about something so personal.

 

With the individual who told me my daughter's depression was caused by her being possessed by a demon, it wans;t while she was ill, it was after she was gone. They told me it was my fault and if i had have taken her to church, it wouldn't have happened.

 

That's the kind of thing I find disgusting.

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lemoncello
It's not an issue of being challenged. I can take that.

 

It's the lack of respect by some religious people and their need to inject their beliefs into my life.

 

I try and be polite, and see no value in insulting them. I have no problem with their beliefs if they bring them comfort and are used as a reason to do good in the world.

 

I have my own views on religion that differ greatly form theirs, but don't ridicule them, and I don't expect them to think and feel the way I do about something so personal.

 

With the individual who told me my daughter's depression was caused by her being possessed by a demon, it wans;t while she was ill, it was after she was gone. They told me it was my fault and if i had have taken her to church, it wouldn't have happened.

 

That's the kind of thing I find disgusting.

 

That is pretty ridiculous that someone believed a demon possessed your daughter and was the cause for her depression. There's no such thing as demons or angels.

 

Depression is a chemical imbalance that has nothing to do with the spiritual world. Absolutely nothing.

 

Everytime I read about situations where people blame things on angels or demons I just shake my head in disbelief.

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todreaminblue

hey truncated......i got called demon seed devil spawn because i was raped when i was a child......by a goodly christian mother.....

 

 

this didnt stop me from believing in god because one person spewed out untruth and ignorance.........

 

 

my religion has an interfaith policy and also a respect to respect others and their beliefs.....not all christians or religious people who are forthcoming about their beliefs put down others.....or share ignorance and judgement..i never became a member of the church that mother was a part of....they actually booted me from scripture study when i tried to walk in and sit down...got around by gossip i guess..... i was a damaged lying attention seeker......much easier to beleive a young girl could be such than a rape victim.....

 

 

but

 

 

as religious and non religious peoples do....they make errors in judgement...they make mistakes.they can be ignorant arrogant and self serving...impatient like me.....and we are all sinners......there are no perfect people on earth......there once was ...but not now......

 

i am mormon......and i try not to be disgusting.....i only stick my finger in the peanut butter jar.....once a month and not every day...i always ask for gods forgiveness after......and i have a respect for others beliefs....i really try.......but i do defend my faith ..to me its beautiful and true....and i stand behind truth.....or what i know as truth or feel as truth in my heart...........everyone has their own ideas on that........deb

Edited by todreaminblue
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autumnnight
As someone who is agnostic and raised my kids to form their own sense of spiritual beliefs, I'm always surprised at the way some (not all) religious people, especially christians, view themsleves as somehow superior to everyone else, and fit religion into everything.

 

For example, one person told me my daughter's depression was due to her being possessed by a demon, and that if i had really wanted to help her, I should have taken her to church.

 

I try to be nice to people whether or not I agree with their religion. We get people coming to our door ( usually mormons of jehova's witnesses) trying to give me literature. i try and be polite, and look at in terms of they genuinely believe they are helping people and doing good in the world. I stuck a Dawin fish on the front door so they would know my beliefs, and they don't come so often.

 

I've been polite to proselytizers all the way from born again Christians to friends of Fallon Gong, but why won't they respect my right to not believe or to question belief? I don't ask or expect them to agree wth me, why don;t I get the same respect.

 

Why do some consider me to be "evil" simply because I don't agree with them? I don't cheat, I don't steal, I don't cheat on my taxes or do anything especially heinous...I don't even drink or smoke. I may tell white lies and use colorful language from time to time, and I am far from perfect, but why do they feel they are in any position to judge someone simply because they don't agree with their religion?

 

Sadly, there are many professing Christians who do not act one bit like Jesus. Yeah, I got the "depression is a spiritual problem" routine too when I took AD's, and I am a Christian. People like this forget that in Proverbs it says that two things God hates are haughty eyes and a proud heart.

 

Of course, as evidenced by this post:

 

That's simple. Your disbelief in organized religion is a threat to their self-created delusion in a higher power. People who are religious don't think for themselves. They use religion to hide behind, to justify their behavior (whether it's moral or immoral).

 

The superior disdain can go both ways.

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pureinheart
It's not an issue of being challenged. I can take that.

 

It's the lack of respect by some religious people and their need to inject their beliefs into my life.

 

I try and be polite, and see no value in insulting them. I have no problem with their beliefs if they bring them comfort and are used as a reason to do good in the world.

 

I have my own views on religion that differ greatly form theirs, but don't ridicule them, and I don't expect them to think and feel the way I do about something so personal.

 

With the individual who told me my daughter's depression was caused by her being possessed by a demon, it wans;t while she was ill, it was after she was gone. They told me it was my fault and if i had have taken her to church, it wouldn't have happened.

 

That's the kind of thing I find disgusting.

 

I would say this was spoken due to lack of knowledge because to my knowledge God is in control and doesn't need you, me or anyone ... T, I am so sorry for your loss... it wasn't your fault BTW.

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pureinheart
hey truncated......i got called demon seed devil spawn because i was raped when i was a child......by a goodly christian mother.....

 

 

 

Wow.........

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pureinheart
That is pretty ridiculous that someone believed a demon possessed your daughter and was the cause for her depression. There's no such thing as demons or angels.

 

Depression is a chemical imbalance that has nothing to do with the spiritual world. Absolutely nothing.

 

Everytime I read about situations where people blame things on angels or demons I just shake my head in disbelief.

 

...and Lemon what is your evidence that they don't exist, that is angels and demons? I've seen an angel and no it wasn't 'some good stuff':D either...

 

I would beg to differ with the depression thing, and do believe some depression is demonic, especially the radical depression. We all experience depression from time to time, usually mild. My definition of depression is unresolved guilt, things from the past which have not been resolved. Anxiety being fear of the future.

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lemoncello
...and Lemon what is your evidence that they don't exist, that is angels and demons? I've seen an angel and no it wasn't 'some good stuff':D either...

 

I would beg to differ with the depression thing, and do believe some depression is demonic, especially the radical depression. We all experience depression from time to time, usually mild. My definition of depression is unresolved guilt, things from the past which have not been resolved. Anxiety being fear of the future.

 

Well, I think it's fairly common among religious folk to lay blame and give credit to non-human forces like angels and demons.

 

If someone does something bad, it's easier to blame their behavior on a demon, than it is for them to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

And it's easier to say that angels are responsible for good things that happen in people's lives, when that's not the reality at all.

 

You think you saw an angel. But what you saw was a hallucination because you wanted to see it. You probably needed to see it.

 

The phrase "personal demons" means inner struggles for a person. That's the only "demon" that exists. Well that and in spiritual literature as characters of a story. But real? Nope. Not possible.

 

OP, when you come across religious people who judge you for your different beliefs don't take it so personally. Religious people tend to have one-track minds and can't think outside their religious box (no offense to religious people). It's the lens they choose to see the world through.

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autumnnight

The hypocrisy here is so pathetic. Christians are derisive and judgemental...and yet look at EVERY post from a nonreligious person in this thread.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

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lemoncello
The hypocrisy here is so pathetic. Christians are derisive and judgemental...and yet look at EVERY post from a nonreligious person in this thread.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

For me personally, I don't believe in the existence of spiritual characters mentioned in religious texts. There is zero proof except for what's written in religious texts by other human beings using their imagination.

 

I don't think that makes me judgemental or a hypocrite. I think it makes me have a different opinion.

 

Anyway OP, you asked why religious people judge you as evil, it's because you don't believe what they do.

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Who are the lukewarm though?

 

That's a good question. This site seems to offer a good explanation. God seemed to lambaste those who were so pacified by their material possessions they had no zeal for the Lord. They weren't against God, but they definitely weren't living FOR Him either.

 

It makes me think of some people in the educated, upper-class part of our society. They may have some upbringing in the Christian faith, and some semblance of an idea of the spiritual world, but are so comforted by their education, "intelligence", career, well-running cars, and suburban homes, that they lose any vigor they had to serve the things of God.

 

I also start to think of the "Coexist" bumper sticker when I think of lukewarm. While a nice sentiment (that all beliefs have equal merit), there's no such reality when you look at the conflicting messages in each religion. It seems like a middle-of-the-road stance. But there's nothing "on the fence" about spirituality. It's all or nothing. To me, they're neither hot for a spiritual belief, nor are they cold (aka "all religions are crap!!")...they're lukewarm (imo).

 

pih, what is your understanding of "lukewarm"?

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autumnnight
For me personally, I don't believe in the existence of spiritual characters mentioned in religious texts. There is zero proof except for what's written in religious texts by other human beings using their imagination.

 

I don't think that makes me judgemental or a hypocrite. I think it makes me have a different opinion.

 

Anyway OP, you asked why religious people judge you as evil, it's because you don't believe what they do.

 

There is nothing judgmental about not agreeing or not believing. Saying Christians cannot think outside a box, have one track minds, and that derisive, snarky, condescending post I quoted earlier are what I am referring to.

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pureinheart
Well, I think it's fairly common among religious folk to lay blame and give credit to non-human forces like angels and demons.

 

If someone does something bad, it's easier to blame their behavior on a demon, than it is for them to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

And it's easier to say that angels are responsible for good things that happen in people's lives, when that's not the reality at all.

 

You think you saw an angel. But what you saw was a hallucination because you wanted to see it. You probably needed to see it.

 

The phrase "personal demons" means inner struggles for a person. That's the only "demon" that exists. Well that and in spiritual literature as characters of a story. But real? Nope. Not possible.

 

OP, when you come across religious people who judge you for your different beliefs don't take it so personally. Religious people tend to have one-track minds and can't think outside their religious box (no offense to religious people). It's the lens they choose to see the world through.

 

...but, you have no evidence? Correct? So, it's by your word alone that we all must go by as 'fact' that angels and demons don't exist. OTOH there are tons of accounts (from non believers as well) that they intact do... there's proof all over the place.

 

No, I know I saw an angel (there were others there as well). Again no, I was on my way to work and really wasn't thinking about seeing anything angelic. I had just come home from being on a rather large assignment and saw bunches of miracles, so I really didn't need anything from God either.

 

Angels also carry out Gods judgments, so it isn't all good. As far as blaming bad behavior on demons, we all have choices, while the enemy may be influential in some cases, the fact is the flesh is responsible for about 75% of bad behavior.

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pureinheart
That's a good question. This site seems to offer a good explanation. God seemed to lambaste those who were so pacified by their material possessions they had no zeal for the Lord. They weren't against God, but they definitely weren't living FOR Him either.

 

It makes me think of some people in the educated, upper-class part of our society. They may have some upbringing in the Christian faith, and some semblance of an idea of the spiritual world, but are so comforted by their education, "intelligence", career, well-running cars, and suburban homes, that they lose any vigor they had to serve the things of God.

 

I also start to think of the "Coexist" bumper sticker when I think of lukewarm. While a nice sentiment (that all beliefs have equal merit), there's no such reality when you look at the conflicting messages in each religion. It seems like a middle-of-the-road stance. But there's nothing "on the fence" about spirituality. It's all or nothing. To me, they're neither hot for a spiritual belief, nor are they cold (aka "all religions are crap!!")...they're lukewarm (imo).

 

pih, what is your understanding of "lukewarm"?

 

Thank you Pie... I feel like I'm learning everything all over again. At one point felt I had a lot of spiritual knowledge, but the more I learned recently caused many questions...lol

 

It always scares me when people speak of the unsaved and lukewarm because the enemy attacks me big time in this area, saying, 'you're not saved'... you know that lies and such. I know better, although what if? Salvation being such a serious matter, I want to be sure and have been praying about this... I love your post!

 

Lukewarm to me says those who think they are saved, but aren't...

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todreaminblue
Wow.........

 

not really wow......it doesnt surprise me that even christians can sometimes be ignorant of others suffering.....i am guilty of this myself.....i failed to read that the opening poster had lost her child......caught up in my own memories of a judgement instead of helping op..which was always my intention.....and honestly the mother who didnt believe i was raped also failed....we all fail sometimes...its whether we learn from it...

 

to the op ...i am sorry for your loss and i hope you find in your future more compassionate spirits who understand your pain and dont blame you and instead comfort you as any human should be comforted.....hugs...sorry...................deb

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