I believe God controls everything

[Darren2013]

I suppose you can label my theology as sovereign free grace universalist. My views about God are more Calvinistic than Arminian. The only difference is that unlike a Calvinist I believe all people are saved. So that makes me a universalist.

 

I also do not believe in human free will. God controls everything. Everything that happens is God's will. He hardens and softens the hearts of people as He wills and when He wills for His own purposes unknown to us.

 

The free will we think we have is an illusion and it is part of God's sovereign plan I believe to let us think that way. So if you believe you are in control of your own destiny then that's the belief God has sovereignly given you to have. I don't need to try and convince you otherwise because I can't anyway. It is not in my power.

 

It is God's will that people have all these different beliefs in this temporal world. God preordained the fall of humanity and the redemption of all. God predestined the 1st Adam to fail and for the last Adam to succeed.

 

Dr. Martin Luther King was an example of sovereign grace at work in him to have the courage to do what he did. All the credit and glory goes to God and Dr. King can take none of it. I don't think he would try to take credit for his courage to be a freedom fighter.

 

So yeah God preordained sin and He was the author of it. If He did all that then it goes consistent with my belief system that none will perish in the end but all will be saved.

 

With all this being said I do believe in praying for the leaders in our government. Voting is good too. I believe in both but regardless of who ends up in office and whether I voted for them or not it is part of God's sovereign plan. I do pray that God may soften the hearts of our leaders so they may do right in serving the people. God can do anything and you never know whom He will soften next.

[Rejected Rosebud]

That's interesting, Darren, I appreciate that you can articulate your religious beliefs so clearly. If you believe God controls everything though why all the posts about trying to manipulate other people, isn't that God's job and you are butting in?

[M30USA]

You are correct with all of your terms, except for universalism. The Bible suggests that God could, hypothetically, create some people to be objects of his mercy and others to be objects of his wrath, and still be justified and holy. Read Romans 9:22. Obviously this makes God sound tyrannical, but God is far different from what even most Christians perceive. Even the most enlightened person has really no clue who God is--other than what God reveals to us. And even what God reveals to us is clouded by both our limited understanding and our sin.

 

My point here is that we need to trust what Scripture says, no matter how ridiculous it seems. We are at the mercy of God for any and all of our understanding. We should take any and all revelation he gives us and conform our understanding to it, not the other way around. The philosopher Saint Aquinas discussed this in depth. You should read his writings.

[Darren2013]

No because if God controls everything it doesn't matter whether I take an active or passive role in things. God's will prevails in spite of me being passive or active. That's what's so liberating about this belief system. God's sovereign role in the earth in day to day affairs is not dependent on my giving Him permission to be in control. If one has to decide to give God control of their lives then they are the ones still in control and not God. I do not believe I am greater than God.

[CarrieT]

So you have to give over control to God for him/her to be in control?

 

Because - as you can tell from my avatar - since I have not given control, as you suggest, than *I* am still in control?

[M30USA]

Here is the theology and worldview that a professing Christian ultimately adopts when they deny that God has total sovereignty:

 

 

*Note: the presenter is speaking ABOUT this view. He does not hold this view, himself.

Edited November 22, 2014 by M30USA

[Gloria25]

No because if God controls everything it doesn't matter whether I take an active or passive role in things. God's will prevails in spite of me being passive or active. That's what's so liberating about this belief system. God's sovereign role in the earth in day to day affairs is not dependent on my giving Him permission to be in control. If one has to decide to give God control of their lives then they are the ones still in control and not God. I do not believe I am greater than God.

 

IMO, it's a combo of our free will and God's power/will. For example, you want a $1,000.00 within 7 days. You carrying out your free will is to ask your friends to lend you, you work extra hours on the job - but no matter what you do, you can't get the $1,000.00 in 7 days. That's God's will. You had the free will to do what you can to get the money, but God did not want you to have it in 7 days. Why? Only God knows.

 

Then boom!!! In two weeks you get a call from your boss saying you're getting promoted and you'll get started off with a bonus of $1,000.00 in about four weeks. So, there you go, God's intention was for you to get that $1,000.00 at the time God wanted it to.

[Clair93]

IMO, it's a combo of our free will and God's power/will. For example, you want a $1,000.00 within 7 days. You carrying out your free will is to ask your friends to lend you, you work extra hours on the job - but no matter what you do, you can't get the $1,000.00 in 7 days. That's God's will. You had the free will to do what you can to get the money, but God did not want you to have it in 7 days. Why? Only God knows.

 

Then boom!!! In two weeks you get a call from your boss saying you're getting promoted and you'll get started off with a bonus of $1,000.00 in about four weeks. So, there you go, God's intention was for you to get that $1,000.00 at the time God wanted it to.

 

If none of your friends give you money, you're saying it's God's will, not the friend's free will. So if a child is getting raped and you try to save her, it's your free will, then if you can't save her, that's God's will, not the rapist's will.

[Gloria25]

If none of your friends give you money, you're saying it's God's will, not the friend's free will. So if a child is getting raped and you try to save her, it's your free will, then if you can't save her, that's God's will, not the rapist's will.

 

But how do you know that the rape may be God's way to see what other people would have done to protect that child.

 

Yes, ugly things happen in this world, but God is the one putting the puzzle together. It is so complicated that we don't know what the ultimate goal God has in mind.

 

Some people that have been raped take different ways to deal with it. Some get help and move on to have successful relationships and even become advocates of laws and/or awareness to protect others. Some turn inwards, cut off affection from their husbands/wives and/or even move on to molest others.

 

While what we may see as a tragedy, it may be an opportunity to become a hero or an angel to others.

 

Do you think rich people who make their money off of taking advantage of other's misery are blessed? How do you know whether or not their money is a test? But from the outside you think they're well off? Right? Shoot, they're probably doing better than some child that got raped? Right? You and I don't know that, only God does. God knows how they will be rewarded and/or judged.

 

Look at the Holocaust. Those people went through horrible things. Many have moved on to have kids, marriages, families and/or become outstanding members of our community. Again, yes, bad thing happen - but how do you know if that God's "test"?

 

BTW, going back to the money example. If God didn't want you to have that money at the time you wanted it, doesn't matter if you tried to pawn stuff in your home, applied for a loan, asked friend - at the end of the day, God did not want you to have it then. Do you know why? Do you believe it was for a good or bad reason? Only God knows best and why He does what He does.

[Clair93]

So how does it work exactly? You have free will when you ask someone for something, but they don't have free will in their response, as their respond is based on the will of God. So are you saying that only the person asking for something has free will, or that only one person in the world has free will? How does it work?

 

But how do you know that the rape may be God's way to see what other people would have done to protect that child.

 

But if the child asked for help, and nobody could help, you just said that it's the will of God, and the will of God will always happen. So if it's God's will that the child get raped, nobody could have done something to prevent it. That's according to your beliefs.

 

God decided this child to get raped, only to see the vain attempts of others in saving that child. That's some plan for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good God.

 

 

Yes, ugly things happen in this world, but God is the one putting the puzzle together. It is so complicated that we don't know what the ultimate goal God has in mind.

 

If he's the one putting it all together, then he is responsible for its shortcomings, as you can reasonably expect an all-powerful God to be able to reach his ultimate goal without inflicting suffering on innocent beings. The fact that the plan is flawed in every possible way, shows that either God couldn't have done something about it or didn't care to, therefore he's either impotent or evil, or both.

 

And based on your beliefs, if the act of the rapist is part of God's plan, then you can't really blame the rapist as he was just acting according to God's perfect and beautiful plan and will.

 

 

 

Some people that have been raped take different ways to deal with it. Some get help and move on to have successful relationships and even become advocates of laws and/or awareness to protect others. Some turn inwards, cut off affection from their husbands/wives and/or even move on to molest others.

 

So if you get abused and it negatively affects you, it's your fault, not the rapists fault.

 

 

While what we may see as a tragedy, it may be an opportunity to become a hero or an angel to others.

 

So the rapist is actually doing the child a favor by raping them, to give them an opportunity to become an angel or hero.

 

Great.

 

 

Do you think rich people who make their money off of taking advantage of other's misery are blessed? How do you know whether or not their money is a test? But from the outside you think they're well off? Right? Shoot, they're probably doing better than some child that got raped? Right? You and I don't know that, only God does. God knows how they will be rewarded and/or judged.

 

But isn't that God's will for those people to have misery, so someone else gets rich? Doesn't that giving them the opportunity to become angels or heroes?

 

 

 

Look at the Holocaust. Those people went through horrible things. Many have moved on to have kids, marriages, families and/or become outstanding members of our community. Again, yes, bad thing happen - but how do you know if that God's "test"?

 

I yet to see a good reason why this so-called "test" is so damn important that justifies all the suffering, or blessing in disguise according to you. If God is all-powerful then he surely could have done his "test" in a more fair and just way.

 

 

 

BTW, going back to the money example. If God didn't want you to have that money at the time you wanted it, doesn't matter if you tried to pawn stuff in your home, applied for a loan, asked friend - at the end of the day, God did not want you to have it then. Do you know why? Do you believe it was for a good or bad reason? Only God knows best and why He does what He does.

 

So again, your friends don't have the free will to give you money. So please explain how does that work? Only the person asking for money has the free will? Or only you have free will?

 

If God wanted free ceatures who have free will, then he should not interfere, if he interferes by getting rid of other people's free will, only to do what's best for me, well, that's quite an arrogant and narcissistic view of the world, isn't it?

[pureinheart]

Great thread... I love it when you guys start these threads because they make me think and it's quite humbling.

 

Darren, we have different beliefs where God is concerned...quite frankly, I cannot even begin to describe what God is and isn't, the only thing I know is He is everything (whether I acknowledge this without ceasing or not) and sovereign.

 

IMO we as people think we know who God is, but I would venture to say we know little (if this sounds offensive, replace the 'we' with 'I').

 

The thing that amazes me the most about God is His mercy. It really makes me angry when I hear non believers cut Him down, at that point I realize they know zero about God which disqualifies them from speaking a word about Him, they just need someone to blame. Rant over...

[Cedar27]

Very interesting post OP. I on the other hand believe God is responsible for creating everything, but then steps back and allows us to have a bit of free will.

 

Oh yeah, and your "sovereign free grace universalist" label is awesome. You should put that on a bumper sticker!

[Clair93]

The thing that amazes me the most about God is His mercy. It really makes me angry when I hear non believers cut Him down, at that point I realize they know zero about God which disqualifies them from speaking a word about Him, they just need someone to blame. Rant over...

 

You missed the point of non believers. You can't blame God for anything if you don't belive he exists. Point is that we're addressing the inconsistencies in the doctrine of religions. Anyone knows they can't blame fictional characters for events that happen in the real world.

 

By the way, studies conclusively show that non believers know more about religion than believers, the main reason people leave religions is that they critically read the holy books.

[umirano]

Yes, ugly things happen in this world, but God is the one putting the puzzle together. It is so complicated that we don't know what the ultimate goal God has in mind.

 

You have exactly zero proof for that particular view. In addition to that it sounds utterly unethical for such a world to be created by an all loving god. It's sad to see that so many people subscribe to this misanthropic world view.

[M30USA]

You have exactly zero proof for that particular view. In addition to that it sounds utterly unethical for such a world to be created by an all loving god. It's sad to see that so many people subscribe to this misanthropic world view.

 

There is evidence. Read the solution to the "problem of evil" argument by Augustine of Hippo.

 

As for evidence of God's existence, read either the ontological argument by Anselm or the cosmological argument by Thomas Aquinas. The former proves God's existence rationally (a priori), the latter proves it empirically (a posteriori).

 

Rene DesCartes, the creater of many mathematical theorums that you learned in high school, also has an argument for the existence of God in his volume called "Meditations on First Philosophy". (This is the same book where he said, "I think, therefore I am.") It's worth checking out.

Edited November 23, 2014 by M30USA

[writergal]

God is a fictional character created by humans to control other humans.

[M30USA]

God is a fictional character created by humans to control other humans.

 

The concept of God predates civilization and government. Therefore, it would have no need to control anyone through it. Corrupt people use it to control (as they can do with anything else), but this doesn't put the egg before the chicken.

Edited November 23, 2014 by M30USA

[writergal]

The concept of God predates civilization and government. Therefore, it would have no need to control anyone through it. Corrupt people use it to control people (as they can do with anything else), but this doesn't put the egg before the chicken.

 

My disbelief in God predates this thread. Therefore I have no need to control anyone through my Atheistic belief. Corrupt people use religion and the fictional God to control other people. And there is no chicken or egg. Those are just concepts.

[M30USA]

My disbelief in God predates this thread. Therefore I have no need to control anyone through my Atheistic belief. Corrupt people use religion and the fictional God to control other people. And there is no chicken or egg. Those are just concepts.

 

Lunacy threshold reached. Exeunt omnes.

[writergal]

Lunacy threshold reached. Exeunt omnes.

 

Sounds like a Captain Kirk quote from Star Trek when he encountered a Romulin ship.

[Darren2013]

I can give my own testimony of an example in my life where I believe God controls everything. Of course the readers can take and interpret it differently and some probably will and that's fine because I know what I have experienced.

 

Back in 2012 I began to see the first manifestations of cancer in my body with a swollen lump on my neck. It was in late March that I first noticed it. Now at that time I wasn't thinking cancer. I was thinking I just had an upper respiratory infection because lymph nodes can swell in the neck.

 

I will try to make this short but fast forward to June the lump was still there. Nothing was going away. I started to lose weight without trying and getting body aches and coughing. These are all the typical symptoms of lymphoma cancer.

 

So it was in June when I decided it is time to see a doctor but I did not have any insurance. So for about a week or so I shopped around for private insurance. I called some companies but never got a call back. Then I just decided to take a break from it all.

 

I was also still not feeling well so I said just this one time doctor visit I can pay out of my own pocket because I had money in my savings account. I went to go see a doctor locally who looked at my neck but then said he would have to order more tests. He excused himself and left the room. A few minutes later a financial worker came in the room and asked questions to confirm that I have no insurance and that I can only pay out of pocket.

 

So anyway she talked to me about a free clinic and where it is located and that she does volunteer work there on the side and she said she would probably be able to get me set up with the clinic and enroll me as a patient and then I wouldn't have to pay for any of the tests. They just needed some proof that my income is low enough for me to be eligible for the free clinic.

 

Then 4-5 days later I get a call from another volunteer at the free clinic and set me up for an appointment to be screened for eligibility. She went over with me the relevant documents and tax information I would need to bring.

 

So July 3rd I go for the appointment and I pass their eligibility criteria and they issue me a patient card. By July 17th I have my first doctor checkup and they really moved swiftly and stepped up things with ordering blood work and cat scans and by July 20th that's when they refer me to the emergency room because I had a big blood clot in my vena cava from the cancer and thats why I had been coughing. It was a Friday morning and that turned into a 2 week hospital stay.

 

They said I could have died any moment or been paralyzed from a stroke if they did not catch the blood clot.

 

Well during that 2 week hospital stay I finally get call backs on my cell phone from a company inquiring about my interest in buying private insurance. I told them that won't be necessary now.

 

The free clinic I go has paid for all my medical expenses. They do not take patients with health insurance. So in hindsight I believe something was holding me back from being more aggressive with shopping for health insurance and that's why I took a break from shopping. And probably God blocked the doors for me to receive calls from them. I would not have been eligible for the free clinic and I would still be paying alot of out of pocket costs today if I had insurance because cancer care is very expensive.

 

I did not know free clinics existed and they came looking for me. I did not look for them. Heck even my Dad was willing to help out and he told me he was on the verge of mortgaging his house to help me out. But none of that was necessary. The Lord did a sovereign work in these volunteers to take me in and make the process easy. They seemed happy to take me in as a patient. The timing of events was just right and only God knew the serious extent of what was wrong with me before I or any of the doctors knew. God knew that private insurance would not do me any good on my salary to treat the condition I have.

 

Furthermore who knows how long I am going to live anyway. I might have been throwing away alot of money for nothing.

[Clair93]

There is evidence. Read the solution to the "problem of evil" argument by Augustine of Hippo.

 

As for evidence of God's existence, read either the ontological argument by Anselm or the cosmological argument by Thomas Aquinas. The former proves God's existence rationally (a priori), the latter proves it empirically (a posteriori).

 

Rene DesCartes, the creater of many mathematical theorums that you learned in high school, also has an argument for the existence of God in his volume called "Meditations on First Philosophy". (This is the same book where he said, "I think, therefore I am.") It's worth checking out.

 

All three arguments are flawed in many different levels and have no credibility within the philosophy circles and in the academic philosophy world. They've been rebutted again and again and again. They're just tools that theist apologists use to confuse uneducated people. If there was a bulletproof argument for existence of God then the discussion was over. There's a reason that less than 15% of professional philosophers are theists and over 65% are atheists (over 85% are non-believers as a good portion are "theological noncognitivists").

 

In practice, theology is fantasy story-telling, apologetics is philosophy done backwards.

 

--

 

Augustine's attempt to solving problem of evil does not hold, since he assumes creation of evil was a corruption of God's creation, but you can reasonably expect an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good do everything in his power to make his creation incorruptible, therefore the problem is still there that if God's creation was corrupted, it is evidence of importance.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Clair93

[M30USA]

All three arguments are flawed in many different levels and have no credibility within the philosophy circles and in the academic philosophy world. They've been rebutted again and again and again. They're just tools that theist apologists use to confuse uneducated people. If there was a bulletproof argument for existence of God then the discussion was over. There's a reason that less than 15% of professional philosophers are theists and over 65% are atheists (over 85% are non-believers as a good portion are "theological noncognitivists").

 

In practice, theology is fantasy story-telling, apologetics is philosophy done backwards.

 

--

 

Augustine's attempt to solving problem of evil does not hold, since he assumes creation of evil was a corruption of God's creation, but you can reasonably expect an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good do everything in his power to make his creation incorruptible, therefore the problem is still there that if God's creation was corrupted, it is evidence of importance.

 

Every single philosophical argument has been "rebutted" by someone. You asked me for evidence. That is the nature of evidence, especially of a matter which, by definition, can only be proven with an a priori argument, since we are dealing with a non-physical subject.

 

Also, have you actually read their arguments or did you just do a one-second Google search where you read a summary by a single individual who claims to speak on behalf of every intelligent person on the planet? The truth is that the ontological argument does have some weaknesses but the cosmological argument still holds up. Plus the CA is right up your alley, written by an empiracist philosopher (Aquinas) in the style of Aristotle. Why you would oppose a person who champions empiracism is beyond me since that's what you're looking for.

Edited November 23, 2014 by M30USA

[Gloria25]

God is a fictional character created by humans to control other humans.

 

I believe in God...

 

But, I believe "man" has taken the word of God and manipulated it for personal gain.

 

Ever see the movie "Book of Eli"? Just goes to show you what people will do to have control of God's word in order to use it to control people.

 

That's why I haven't gone to a "house of God" in the longest. I cannot stand the hypocrisy, likes, and manipulation of people.

[M30USA]

I believe in God...

 

But, I believe "man" has taken the word of God and manipulated it for personal gain.

 

Ever see the movie "Book of Eli"? Just goes to show you what people will do to have control of God's word in order to use it to control people.

 

That's why I haven't gone to a "house of God" in the longest. I cannot stand the hypocrisy, likes, and manipulation of people.

 

The church is not a building. The church is the worldwide body of those who believe upon Christ, repent of sin, and preach the Gospel to the world. Many churches promote social programs but don't do any of these 3, except maybe number 1 (which would be followed by 2 and 3 if it were true belief).