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(Gonna start a debate here for sure....but let's all be intellectuals for a sec. I'm bored, it's Saturday night, I'm listening to Def Leppard's "On through the Night" album on Pandora and I want answers to questions Imams seem to not be able to answer):

 

Since I ended up in this forum from my other post, I have a question for Muslims.

 

The Qu'ran was written about 630 AD. We know Muhammad wasn't literate so he had other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'. From a historical standpoint, I have learned that not only did Muhammad have copies of both the Old and New Testament, but he also took the literary works of the Wikkan religions and others at the time.

 

Now we know this is historically accurate, why is there any question as to why Islam is a false religion? We know where a lot of their text came from (heck, some of the stuff in the Qu'ran came STRAIGHT out of the OT and NT and I have links to that as well).

 

There is no mention of Muhammad or Allah in the OT or NT but this 'allah' character refers to them often in the Qu'ran and of course, says Jesus was "just a Prophet" (not true -- and Christ has been documented in text around the same time OUTSIDE of the Jewish religion and text).

 

When I asked a Muslim friend this question, do you know what their answer was? "Oh, well you Christians took Muhammad out of every Bible you have..." Allah is God, Jesus is just a Prophet, etc. Farsical nonsense!

 

So they are saying millions, maybe BILLIONS of Bibles were all edited, as far back as 300AD (330 years BM -- before Muhammad). I want some historical and factual data backing that up.

 

Because as far as I can find through research, the earliest date of the Qu'ran was 630AD -- which as I said, is 600 years after Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

 

Any Muslim scholars want to kick in here? I don't want to get into the whole beheading thing, but I do know Muhammad's most beloved wife, when he married her, was a ripe 6 years of age..... (cough).....

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(Gonna start a debate here for sure....but let's all be intellectuals for a sec. I'm bored, it's Saturday night, I'm listening to Def Leppard's "On through the Night" album on Pandora and I want answers to questions Imams seem to not be able to answer):

 

Since I ended up in this forum from my other post, I have a question for Muslims.

 

The Qu'ran was written about 630 AD. We know Muhammad wasn't literate so he had other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'. From a historical standpoint, I have learned that not only did Muhammad have copies of both the Old and New Testament, but he also took the literary works of the Wikkan religions and others at the time.

 

Now we know this is historically accurate, why is there any question as to why Islam is a false religion? We know where a lot of their text came from (heck, some of the stuff in the Qu'ran came STRAIGHT out of the OT and NT and I have links to that as well).

 

There is no mention of Muhammad or Allah in the OT or NT but this 'allah' character refers to them often in the Qu'ran and of course, says Jesus was "just a Prophet" (not true -- and Christ has been documented in text around the same time OUTSIDE of the Jewish religion and text).

 

When I asked a Muslim friend this question, do you know what their answer was? "Oh, well you Christians took Muhammad out of every Bible you have..." Allah is God, Jesus is just a Prophet, etc. Farsical nonsense!

 

So they are saying millions, maybe BILLIONS of Bibles were all edited, as far back as 300AD (330 years BM -- before Muhammad). I want some historical and factual data backing that up.

 

Because as far as I can find through research, the earliest date of the Qu'ran was 630AD -- which as I said, is 600 years after Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

 

Any Muslim scholars want to kick in here? I don't want to get into the whole beheading thing, but I do know Muhammad's most beloved wife, when he married her, was a ripe 6 years of age..... (cough).....

 

Your "Muslim" friend needs to get his facts straight....

 

In Islam people are are taught that each book before the Holy Quran did exist and is to be respected (the First and Old Testament, the Torah) but, that the Quran is what was supposed to have come AFTER Jesus...Thus, the Quran being God's last book and supersedes all previous scriptures...

 

But, he is right that Muslims are taught that all Muhammad, Jesus, Moses - even Adam were prophets of good - with Muhammad being the last one. And, that God has no children, period....God's a one-guy operation going on there. No trinity or nothing like that.

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Hi CaliGuy, I am Muslim, though not a scholar, or imam, or anything religiously significant, just a regular internet junkie. But still I'm biased towards making my belief looks acceptable if not well-liked :rolleyes:, hope that's okay. Thanks anyway for creating this thread, never thought until a few days ago that I would have the zeal to write about religion (though is still quite lazy to write the reply in my own paragraph).

 

The Qu'ran was written about 630 AD. We know Muhammad wasn't literate so he had other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'.

From our side, based on our religious study and tradition, we accept that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad, gradually, part by part, mainly based on the current incident and situation at that time of his prophecy.

 

For each revelation that he had received, he would then taught/recited it to the people around him, usually his followers. Many of them memorized it by words (as per common ability and practice of a people deeply based on oral tradition and culture), but some did scribed it down on various pieces and parchments to aide in the memorization (though written Arabic was not widely developed yet at that time, I don't think they have any prominent literature or books, unlike other people around them there).

 

Even till Muhammad's death, there was no whole complete book called Quran yet. Indeed he did discouraged others from doing so, most probably out of worry of possible modification. Some suggested that sentiment arisen due to the observation of the many different version of gospel and torah, and also based on what the Quran itself mentions.

 

That's why it's hard for us to see it the way you said it, as "other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'.

 

From a historical standpoint, I have learned that not only did Muhammad have copies of both the Old and New Testament, but he also took the literary works of the Wikkan religions and others at the time.

It's weird and quite unlikely for an illiterate man, in that kind of society where reading was not in any way emphasized beyond its scattered function, and during the time when scriptures were relatively kept in monasteries, churches, etc. away from the common people, to keep in his possession the Old and New Testament, as well as others. If so, then the people around him would have notice it, and easily use it to against him.

 

 

Now we know this is historically accurate, why is there any question as to why Islam is a false religion? We know where a lot of their text came from (heck, some of the stuff in the Qu'ran came STRAIGHT out of the OT and NT and I have links to that as well).

This is pretty much as Gloria25 mentioned in her post, many stories are repeated because for us Quran it is to be accepted as a continuation of the previous scriptures and revelations, perhaps not unlike what the Gospels is to the Jews. Further more, Quran claims to function as a confirmation and checking criterion to correct previous stories.

There is no mention of Muhammad or Allah in the OT or NT but this 'allah' character refers to them often in the Qu'ran and of course, says Jesus was "just a Prophet" (not true -- and Christ has been documented in text around the same time OUTSIDE of the Jewish religion and text).

Well if the OT or NT were written in the Arabic, I think they would just use the word Allah for the God. I've heard some of us said so, but have not seen one yet, I'm not an Arab.

 

When I asked a Muslim friend this question, do you know what their answer was? "Oh, well you Christians took Muhammad out of every Bible you have..." Allah is God, Jesus is just a Prophet, etc. Farsical nonsense!

I don't think previous scriptures mention or even have the word Muhammad, other than a few almost near instances if there is any. That is an easy way some of us have choose.

 

Any Muslim scholars want to kick in here? I don't want to get into the whole beheading thing, but I do know Muhammad's most beloved wife, when he married her, was a ripe 6 years of age..... (cough).....

Well his first wife, K, was a much older woman than him, with whom he choose to be monogamous for many years, even when bribed by his opponents with others (certainly more attractive). Many among us consider her to be Muhammad's most beloved. Many stories and narrations compel us to feel so anyway.

 

That young girl, who he married after K passed away, was certainly the more vocal, proud, and precocious among the other not so young wives. Not surprising if the most pretty too. So maybe like many other husbands, he dealt with it with sweet words. Although yes, to cough along with you, nothing precluding the possibility that he liked young girl. Heck, he could had had more than one youngin.

 

Well if you are interested you can read a book by Leslie Hazleton, The First Muslim. It is a light reading on Muhammad's biography, that's, yes, quite favorable towards Islam and hence why I suggested it hehe, but still including the controversial stories of beheading, assassination, raids, etc.

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Oh dear. Im in this section, by accicent via thread I was posting on was moved over to this section. But, I cannot resist inquiring about this tidbit of information (or misinformation I was lead to believe by an Egyption friend of mine), and am now more curious about, and could, too, have relivance to OP's question. Is there not a book or chapter in Qu'ran (unlike Bible), that is all about Mary? If yes, this is true, why is that? Please advise, and educate me please. Thank you. Yas

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... I'm biased towards making my belief looks acceptable if not well-liked :rolleyes:, ...

 

Well if you are interested you can read a book by Leslie Hazleton, The First Muslim. It is a light reading on Muhammad's biography, that's, yes, quite favorable towards Islam and hence why I suggested it hehe, but still including the controversial stories of beheading, assassination, raids, etc.

 

Thank you for sharing. So, Muhammad was God's final prophet, and nothing more? What do Muslim's believe about the end times? Will there be a rapture, according to the Muslim faith?

 

I admit that some of your post felt a tiny bit controversial. Just when you said you wanted to "make your belief look acceptable", and suggest books that are "favorable towards Islam". I imagine it's natural to want to do that. But is there another side to Islam that's not being communicated here, in your post?

 

If possible, could you clarify if there are other aspects to the faith that are less favorable that haven't been touched on?

 

For example, I have heard that, despite an assurance of a generally peaceful belief system, that Islam really does have some quite violent ideologies. Is that something you've experienced in your faith?

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First off, bravo A.Moscote, brilliant answer, very intelligent and well thought out.

 

 

I have learned that not only did Muhammad have copies of both the Old and New Testament, but he also took the literary works of the Wikkan religions and others at the time.

 

 

CaliGuy, unless Muhammad had a time machine and could read the modern English language I doubt he had "Wiccan" literary works given that Wicca was developed in the early to mid 1900's by a retired civil servant called Gerald. The fact you state that your above quote is "historically accurate" information draws into question the reliability of your sources.

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There is no mention of Muhammad or Allah in the OT or NT but this 'allah' character refers to them often in the Qu'ran and of course, says Jesus was "just a Prophet" (not true -- and Christ has been documented in text around the same time OUTSIDE of the Jewish religion and text).

 

I'm Lebanese, my family is Greek Orthodox. We say Allah too. Allah is just a translated word for god in arabic like

 

dios in spanish

 

dieu in french

 

Shnorha in armenian

 

Also jews don't believe jesus was the son of god either and see him as a false messiah.

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I was raised Christian, and live in a Christian society, so the Christian story always seemed familiar to me. I understand it, even if it doesn't really make sense.

 

It wasn't until I spoke to some people from the Muslim faith that I realized how confusing the trinity/Father/son/holy ghost thing is. I found myself trying to explain that Christians believe Jesus IS God, that they are the same being, also father and son, also one sent the other to Earth, but no, the Christian faith does not worship 2 gods (Jesus and God) because they are the same being.....

 

....and I realized just how difficult my own cultural religion really is for those outside the culture to understand and accept. Eyes wide open!

 

So when we find other religions difficult to understand, keep that in mind. The Christian faith isn't exactly logical either.

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Did a module at Uni as i thought it was a good skive to get more drinking time in.

 

St Augustine and the trinity................Stay away. Complete.......

 

 

All religions are the same. If your not in my gang etc......

 

Sorry Caliguy took it off topic a bit.

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OP, since the OT is largely a plagiate of the Gilgamesh Epos and since the whole Jesus birth story is almost exactly the same as Horus' account, your point is what exactly?

 

Both are religions and as such make claims about our world that have no bearing on the reality we live in. It's sad to see how this artificial balkanization of humanity is still spreading.

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So they are saying millions, maybe BILLIONS of Bibles were all edited, as far back as 300AD

No...not millions or billions of copies; the copies that did exist were hand-written and, apparently, took the various sects of monks years and years to complete -- would have numbered in hundreds or thousands, not even tens of thousands, and were in any case under control of the religious and political leaders of the time; mass production of books didn't happen until 1400s.

For those for whom it is not impossible, MAJOR editing - and exclusion of entire 'books' - happened at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other documents may or may not include some of those excluded biblical 'books'.

 

It's all speculation at this point...which does not mean that it is not also factual, or partially factual...or fiction, or partially fiction. Who can prove what, at this point?

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endlessabyss
OP, since the OT is largely a plagiate of the Gilgamesh Epos and since the whole Jesus birth story is almost exactly the same as Horus' account, your point is what exactly?

 

Both are religions and as such make claims about our world that have no bearing on the reality we live in. It's sad to see how this artificial balkanization of humanity is still spreading.

 

Curious, have you actually read the primary sources of the Horus account? If you have, could you direct me on where I could locate the primary source?

 

I totally agree with you on the OT resembling a great deal of the Gilgamesh Epic. Both stories have a similar foundation with different details.

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CaliGuy, unless Muhammad had a time machine and could read the modern English language I doubt he had "Wiccan" literary works given that Wicca was developed in the early to mid 1900's by a retired civil servant called Gerald. The fact you state that your above quote is "historically accurate" information draws into question the reliability of your sources.

 

Wiccan was my placard for "heretics/wizards/etc" or any other "religions" at the time. Not meant as just "Wicca".

 

Also jews don't believe jesus was the son of god either and see him as a false messiah.

 

The Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, even though they rejected Him when He did appear. Their temple is destroyed, where is their Messiah? Oh yes, that'd be Jesus.

 

No...not millions or billions of copies; the copies that did exist were hand-written and, apparently, took the various sects of monks years and years to complete -- would have numbered in hundreds or thousands, not even tens of thousands, and were in any case under control of the religious and political leaders of the time; mass production of books didn't happen until 1400s.

For those for whom it is not impossible, MAJOR editing - and exclusion of entire 'books' - happened at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. The Dead Sea Scrolls and other documents may or may not include some of those excluded biblical 'books'.

 

It's all speculation at this point...which does not mean that it is not also factual, or partially factual...or fiction, or partially fiction. Who can prove what, at this point?

 

In my "friends" case, what they were inferring is that every copy of the Bible that has ever existed has removed all references to allah and mohammad. The sad part for Islam is their religion wasn't even written to paper until 630ad and there are some references in the Qu'ran taken straight out of the Bible. The chicken here, came before the egg.

 

I'm going to have a hard time believing Islam is anything other than a false, satanic religion created solely to validate Muhammads personal lust to take land, kill people and rape children. There's no way allah could be God. God doesn't command "behead people do who do not believe this nonsense".

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First off THANK YOU for replying. I hope I do not come off as crass or rude (not my intention) but this topic fires me up! :) So my apologies in advance if I seem rude. I just love debates as they fire me up passionately.

 

For each revelation that he had received, he would then taught/recited it to the people around him, usually his followers. Many of them memorized it by words (as per common ability and practice of a people deeply based on oral tradition and culture), but some did scribed it down on various pieces and parchments to aide in the memorization (though written Arabic was not widely developed yet at that time, I don't think they have any prominent literature or books, unlike other people around them there).

 

This does not deter from the fact that Islam really did not come into existence until Muhammad did -- 570-630 AD. Well after the Old and New Testaments were written.

 

Even till Muhammad's death, there was no whole complete book called Quran yet. Indeed he did discouraged others from doing so, most probably out of worry of possible modification. Some suggested that sentiment arisen due to the observation of the many different version of gospel and torah, and also based on what the Quran itself mentions.

 

I'm a little confused on what you are saying here. There were some false gospels (Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judah, etc -- we know that they, unlike the accepted Gospels, we're just far too long after Jesus and not in line with the witness accounts that were included in the Bible. That's a whole other conversation for sure)

 

That's why it's hard for us to see it the way you said it, as "other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'.

 

The four main Gospels in the New Testament were eye witness accounts of Jesus. Not based on ideas or thoughts, but actual eye witness testimony.

 

It's weird and quite unlikely for an illiterate man, in that kind of society where reading was not in any way emphasized beyond its scattered function, and during the time when scriptures were relatively kept in monasteries, churches, etc. away from the common people, to keep in his possession the Old and New Testament, as well as others. If so, then the people around him would have notice it, and easily use it to against him.

 

Parchments of the New and Old Testaments were widely available from followers of both religions during Muhammad's time. I find it quite believable that as he traveled, Muhammad learned about Judaism and Christianity and decided "I need a religion that works for me....and I'll make it based on the parchments I already have heard about..." Not so far fetched, really.

 

This is pretty much as Gloria25 mentioned in her post, many stories are repeated because for us Quran it is to be accepted as a continuation of the previous scriptures and revelations, perhaps not unlike what the Gospels is to the Jews. Further more, Quran claims to function as a confirmation and checking criterion to correct previous stories.

 

Sort of like the false gospels?

 

Well if the OT or NT were written in the Arabic, I think they would just use the word Allah for the God. I've heard some of us said so, but have not seen one yet, I'm not an Arab.

 

The NT was written in Aramaic (Hebrew) and Greek thus why no mention of anyone named allah :) The Qu'ran uses its text from the OT and NT, and changes God's name to allah to support Muhammads new religion. There's no reference of anyone named Muhammad as a Prophet, nor did he ever speak to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, etc. Muhammad wasn't around then :) Jesus is the only One to have known them all. In fact, Jacob wrestled with God (thus his hip popped out of socket). I can actually go on this topic forever, but I digress. There's still not references in the Bible that validate Islam. In fact, it proves to me beyond a doubt that Islam is a false religion (from my standpoint, I am sure 1.2 billion people will disagree with me).

 

I don't think previous scriptures mention or even have the word Muhammad, other than a few almost near instances if there is any. That is an easy way some of us have choose.

 

Need clarification as to what you're saying here.

 

Well his first wife, K, was a much older woman than him, with whom he choose to be monogamous for many years, even when bribed by his opponents with others (certainly more attractive). Many among us consider her to be Muhammad's most beloved. Many stories and narrations compel us to feel so anyway.

 

Do you have text to reference this?

 

That young girl, who he married after K passed away, was certainly the more vocal, proud, and precocious among the other not so young wives. Not surprising if the most pretty too. So maybe like many other husbands, he dealt with it with sweet words. Although yes, to cough along with you, nothing precluding the possibility that he liked young girl. Heck, he could had had more than one youngin..

 

Don't you think 6-8 years old is totally unacceptable? Even back then it must have been. I'm sure I am wrong here but to think someone would rape a 6 year old child -- very sick.

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I'm going to have a hard time believing Islam is anything other than a false, satanic religion created solely to validate Muhammads personal lust to take land, kill people and rape children. There's no way allah could be God. God doesn't command "behead people do who do not believe this nonsense".

If human beings going around torturing and/or killing people in the name of their god (by whatever name they call their God), then you cannot exclude Christianity as also being false and brutal. Those were Christians who conducted the Inquisitions, and committed atrocities against the native peoples of the Americas.

But God did not command that, either.

 

It's all just human beings (whatever religion they claim to follow) who are misinterpreting and falsifying, or being misled and misguided by their so-called leaders of faith/religion - deliberately or inadvertently - falsifying and/or misinterpreting their sacred texts, for personal/human reasons of selfishness, greed, retribution, etc.

 

I think "Allah" is a translation of the word/name "God", which is a translation of the word/name "Yahweh", which is a translation of whatever was the word used in the language from which the Hebrew texts were translated.

 

The same as English-speaking people call the country of Suomi, "Finland". It's still the same country.

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If human beings going around torturing and/or killing people in the name of their god (by whatever name they call their God), then you cannot exclude Christianity as also being false and brutal. Those were Christians who conducted the Inquisitions, and committed atrocities against the native peoples of the Americas.

But God did not command that, either.

 

Very true. Just like radical Islam, people like to take God's word and twist it to fit their own agenda.

 

It's all just human beings (whatever religion they claim to follow) who are misinterpreting and falsifying, or being misled and misguided by their so-called leaders of faith/religion - deliberately or inadvertently - falsifying and/or misinterpreting their sacred texts, for personal/human reasons of selfishness, greed, retribution, etc.

 

Agreed.

 

I think "Allah" is a translation of the word/name "God", which is a translation of the word/name "Yahweh", which is a translation of whatever was the word used in the language from which the Hebrew texts were translated.

 

The same as English-speaking people call the country of Suomi, "Finland". It's still the same country.

 

Agree again -- however, I will point out the fact Islam didn't come into existence until well after both Judaism and Christianity. 600 years to be exact.

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The NT was written in Aramaic (Hebrew) and Greek thus why no mention of anyone named allah :) The Qu'ran uses its text from the OT and NT, and changes God's name to allah to support Muhammads new religion. There's no reference of anyone named Muhammad as a Prophet, nor did he ever speak to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, etc.

 

There was no mention of anyone named "God", as we spell and pronounce it, in the original texts either. As jay1983 said before, "God" is the English word, "Dieu" is the French, Deus is Latin and Allah is the Arabic word. If you speak to Christians from Arabic countries they call the Christian God Allah.

 

Muhammad couldn't have communicated with Jesus anymore than Jesus could've communicated with Moses. They weren't alive at the same time. Muhammad can't be in the bible because he was born after the various books that make up the Christian bible were written.

 

Basically Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe in the same "God", the difference is their interpretation of the texts relating to that God and when they believe God has/will/in what form, return to Earth. You saying that Islam is a "false" religion because it came after the events of the NT is akin to Judaism denying the events of the NT because they happened after the Torah was written. If age is what makes a religion "valid" then surely the "One True Faith" would involve praying to the sun and sacrificing virgins/goats/virgin goats to make the rains come!

 

Just as you believe that Jesus spoke the word of God, the result being a new religion developing, Muslims believe that Muhammad spoke the word of God which again caused a new religion to develop. If people focused less on what made their faiths different and more on what makes them similar then I'm sure the world would be a much nicer place. As a heathen who studied religion out of interest and doesn't have "a side", I can tell you that most conservative Christians have got more beliefs in common with the average Muslim than they do with a lot of their liberal/non religious contemporaries.

 

You say you're not trying to be crass or offend anyone and you just love a good debate but you're not going to encourage a lot of Muslims to debate with you when you call their religion "satanic" etc... Plus it's not exactly good form or "intellectual" when you're having a debate to use such emotive language.

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There was no mention of anyone named "God", as we spell and pronounce it, in the original texts either. As jay1983 said before, "God" is the English word, "Dieu" is the French, Deus is Latin and Allah is the Arabic word. If you speak to Christians from Arabic countries they call the Christian God Allah.

 

Yaweh is God.

allah is not.

 

Muhammad couldn't have communicated with Jesus anymore than Jesus could've communicated with Moses. They weren't alive at the same time. Muhammad can't be in the bible because he was born after the various books that make up the Christian bible were written.

 

You do not understand Christianity to make such a statement. Jesus is the Son of God who, even in the NT Jesus is standing with Moses and Elijah. You assume Jesus was just man, but he was not. He's both man and God.

 

Muhammad is not even a prophet (for he does not know God).

 

Basically Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe in the same "God", the difference is their interpretation of the texts relating to that God and when they believe God has/will/in what form, return to Earth.

 

No they do not. Christianity and Judaism are as close as it gets. The difference ONLY being that the Jews do not believe Jesus is who He proved to be. And the Jews will be waiting forever for their Messiah, even though he was right in front of their face. However, that was Jesus' mission, to pay for the sins of man so that we could actually have a relationship with God.

 

Jesus did not teach to "behead unbelievers" as the false prophet muhammad and his false god allah says.

 

Jesus sat with sinners because those were the ones in most need of repentance. He did not promote violence. Quite the opposite actually.

 

You saying that Islam is a "false" religion because it came after the events of the NT is akin to Judaism denying the events of the NT because they happened after the Torah was written. If age is what makes a religion "valid" then surely the "One True Faith" would involve praying to the sun and sacrificing virgins/goats/virgin goats to make the rains come!

 

The Jews do not recognize the New Testament because they do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Again, they're still waiting, aren't they? ;)

 

Just as you believe that Jesus spoke the word of God, the result being a new religion developing, Muslims believe that Muhammad spoke the word of God which again caused a new religion to develop.

 

Disagree. They already had both Judaism and Christianity in existence and the text to peruse before they decided to create islam. That is why islam refers to Christian and Hebew doctrine but neither refer of them refer to islam.

 

If people focused less on what made their faiths different and more on what makes them similar then I'm sure the world would be a much nicer place.

 

Well, as long as islam exists, this world will never be a much nicer place as long as you have followers of a false religion (islam), who demand you convert or be beheaded. Who rape and brutalize women. Who kill women and children. Who live as savages. Who THINK they are going to get 72 virgins when they die (no heaven for them, no virgins). Islam IS satantic. There is no other way to describe that religion. It does not promote peace. It promotes "think like we do or we kill you". There will NEVER be peace with islam on this earth. EVER.

 

As a heathen who studied religion out of interest and doesn't have "a side", I can tell you that most conservative Christians have got more beliefs in common with the average Muslim than they do with a lot of their liberal/non religious contemporaries.

 

I'm not going to even bother replying to this, it's so wrong.

 

You say you're not trying to be crass or offend anyone and you just love a good debate but you're not going to encourage a lot of Muslims to debate with you when you call their religion "satanic" etc... Plus it's not exactly good form or "intellectual" when you're having a debate to use such emotive language.

 

I think the fact they behead people is enough to call them savages and satanic. It is NOT a religion of peace and until people start to think clearly and rationally, we're going to continue to have to fight groups like ISIS.....

 

I assume you feel beheadings, brutalizing women, killing and raping women, children, etc is not satanic or barbaric. In fact, if you happen along a Muslim country and refuse to convert, you'll suffer the same fate as well.

 

Such a peaceful religion, huh?

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-- however, I will point out the fact Islam didn't come into existence until well after both Judaism and Christianity. 600 years to be exact.

And Christianity came that many years, or more, after the traditions of Judaism were founded. It doesn't make Christianity "lesser than" Judaism, nor Islam "lesser than" Christianity. As well, the Jesus-based movement that became Christianity started-up well after Paganism was firmly established. If the logic or "fact" is that the later-established tradition is somehow false just because of its era of being established...then Paganism would be somehow "purer" and/or "truer" than Christianity...and, for the matter, Islam, Greek Orthodox, Zoroastrian, etc., etc., etc...yes?

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Thanks all for the kind replies. I really appreciate it CaliGuy for creating this thread, I wouldn't have to confidence to create one, especially now it seems like I'm the only one here. Hmm..I wonder haven't they got any relationship problems too? Oppressed wife and all...

 

So, Muhammad was God's final prophet, and nothing more?

Yes, he was just a prophet and the last one to be given such role. 11:12.

 

What do Muslim's believe about the end times?

We do believe the present world will come to end. There are many opinions and interpretations of how it will occur, and the Quran too has mentions some of the events at that time.

 

However, the end itself is not really important practically, we are never stressed to wait or anticipate it, or to prevent it (the definite ending here, not the global issues that we have now). After all, many generations had lived and died before us, and those who will face it, will die due to it too anyway. Its real value is in signifying the beginning of the hereafter, the next world.

 

That ending is followed by a stage where every human will be brought back alive, and every single deeds will be scrutinized. It's the time of deciding the compensation for everything. The unjust we do or receive, our good deeds, and bad, all of that matter. Many attributes of god related to this are repeatedly mentioned in the Quran, e.g. the all-wise, all knowing, the acquaintance, the intricate.

 

That's it I guess, in general our view of the day of the end and the hereafter. Hope it helps you in anyway. At least you can use it against those extremist, questioning them on their punishment for killing the innocents, civilians. Of course I hope you don't ever have to meet them.

Will there be a rapture, according to the Muslim faith?

I've roughly skimmed the Wiki about rapture, but I don't really understand it, you can explain it if you feel so, I would like to read it. I wouldn't be surprised if there is the same concept in Islam. We read from the Quran that there are many more previous revelations and guidance, so there ought to share some fundamental structure. I could be wrong, after all I don't know much about Christianity, I tought rapture is just another word for great joy, bliss.

 

But is there another side to Islam that's not being communicated here, in your post?

If possible, could you clarify if there are other aspects to the faith that are less favorable that haven't been touched on?

Yes, there are many that I don't tell here, too many to clarify here. One of them is how it is so easy to use Quranic verses to justify anything.

 

For example, I have heard that, despite an assurance of a generally peaceful belief system, that Islam really does have some quite violent ideologies. Is that something you've experienced in your faith?

I can't give you that kind of assurance. While many verses stress upon patience, just, and mercy, there are other verses too that allow aggressive stances and actions. I've seen many Muslims around me who are more inclined to act aggressively. I can only promise myself to be peaceful, as taught in the Quran how to be one.

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Is there not a book or chapter in Qu'ran (unlike Bible), that is all about Mary? If yes, this is true, why is that? Please advise, and educate me please. Thank you. Yas

 

Mary are mentioned so many times in the Quran, more than Muhammad himself I think. Yes, in particular, there is a chapter in the Quran called Surah Maryam (Chapter of Mary). However it is not all about Mary, Quran is kind of revealed that way, not really structured. Only the first of about three parts of the chapter, narrating about the story of Mary, verse number 1 to 36.

 

There are many justifications for its revelation. Mainly it is to refutes what some would claims about Mary. There are people who slander her, disbelieve her, and on the other spectrum people who revered her too far. The story though was mentioned previously in NT of course. In one of the lecture I listen to however said that the Quran emphasis more on Mary's honor and chastity than in the NT. Yeah it can just be the lecturer's bias.

 

Coincidentally, it is one of my favorite chapter :cool:. It has a very stylish prose, and indirectly shows how the individuals mentioned in that chapter (Mary, Zacharia, Abraham), spoke with a nice, planned, conscience language.

 

Try this;

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Yaweh is God.

allah is not.

That's like saying "Suomi is NOT Finland...it's not; it's not; it's not." But, yes, it is. Suomi and Finland is the exact same country, even if or when called by a different name/word.

Jesus is the Son of God who, even in the NT Jesus is standing with Moses and Elijah. You assume Jesus was just man, but he was not. He's both man and God.
We are ALL both 'man' and God...if we are not, then Jesus would have been saying an untruth when he said, "All that I do you can do...and even more." How could we possibly do all and more than he did, if we are not exactly like him in that, once cultivated/trained, we could learn to do exactly the same things? Now, either Jesus was a liar or he was not. We can't have it both ways, on this...if we accept word-for-word the bible as gospel truth, then that's what Jesus said. What else could he have meant if not that we are all both 'man' and God?

..., even in the NT Jesus is standing with Moses and Elijah.
Yes. That speaks to reincarnation. If you read about the Ascended Masters - of which Jesus is one - then Moses and Elijah did reincarnate during Jesus' times, obviously with differences including name.

Rome of those times -- up to, including and after First Nicaea -- did not want to promote certain ideas, especially any which were felt would empower individuals and the masses; reincarnation being one such...but apparently they at least recognized a need to at least maintain that the wisdom and assistance of Moses and Elijah (amongst others) were available to Jesus who, given his Mission, needed all the Divine Intervention, Guidance and Help that he could get.

 

There is as much logic in any line of thinking that posits "Allah is responsible for the atrocities wreaked by man against man", as there is in saying, "God is responsible" for same.

 

Additionally, Christianity is also based on a God who is wrathful, vengeful, demanding (that is, brutal, sadistic...satanic if you will) -- even one who would ask and expect one of his 'children' to sacrifice his son on an altar, and another of his children to submit to crucifixion -- what kind of a "peaceful" religion is that?

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Yaweh is God.

allah is not.

 

Yahweh is a Jewish word for God.

 

 

You do not understand Christianity to make such a statement. Jesus is the Son of God who, even in the NT Jesus is standing with Moses and Elijah. You assume Jesus was just man, but he was not. He's both man and God.

 

Muhammad is not even a prophet (for he does not know God).

 

I must've missed the bit where Moses talks about Jesus :p I understand the principle of the holy trinity however my point is that just as Jesus of Nazareth isn't mentioned in the Torah, Mohammad isn't mentioned in the bible.

 

No they do not. Christianity and Judaism are as close as it gets. The difference ONLY being that the Jews do not believe Jesus is who He proved to be. And the Jews will be waiting forever for their Messiah, even though he was right in front of their face. However, that was Jesus' mission, to pay for the sins of man so that we could actually have a relationship with God.

 

Jesus did not teach to "behead unbelievers" as the false prophet muhammad and his false god allah says.

 

Jesus sat with sinners because those were the ones in most need of repentance. He did not promote violence. Quite the opposite actually.

 

YOU believe Jesus was proved to be the son of God, Muslims and Jews do not, why is your belief more valid than theirs?

 

The Jews do not recognize the New Testament because they do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. Again, they're still waiting, aren't they? ;)

 

I get the impression that you have no respect for the faith your saviour belonged to.

 

Disagree. They already had both Judaism and Christianity in existence and the text to peruse before they decided to create islam. That is why islam refers to Christian and Hebew doctrine but neither refer of them refer to islam.

 

Again, I could argue that Christianity already had Judaism and other faiths to peruse before they wrote the bible which is why Christianity refers to Judaism but the Torah doesn't refer to Christianity.

 

Well, as long as islam exists, this world will never be a much nicer place as long as you have followers of a false religion (islam), who demand you convert or be beheaded. Who rape and brutalize women. Who kill women and children. Who live as savages. Who THINK they are going to get 72 virgins when they die (no heaven for them, no virgins). Islam IS satantic. There is no other way to describe that religion. It does not promote peace. It promotes "think like we do or we kill you". There will NEVER be peace with islam on this earth. EVER.

 

Honestly, I believe people like you are far more damaging to the world than the average Muslim. You claim to follow the word of Jesus but turning the other cheek will never be an option for you, the peace your saviour so desired is an impossibility as long as you perpetuate the cycle of hate. I wonder whether Jesus would ask you why you couldn't love your fellow man or love your enemy?

 

I think the fact they behead people is enough to call them savages and satanic. It is NOT a religion of peace and until people start to think clearly and rationally, we're going to continue to have to fight groups like ISIS.....

 

I assume you feel beheadings, brutalizing women, killing and raping women, children, etc is not satanic or barbaric. In fact, if you happen along a Muslim country and refuse to convert, you'll suffer the same fate as well.

 

Such a peaceful religion, huh?

 

I suggest you re-read the story of Moses, the man committed atrocities that would have him declared a war criminal if he was alive today.

 

Everything you listed and more was done by Christians during the crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and more wars and genocides than I care to list. What about the platform of non involvement during the holocaust or the support of slavery? Was that behaviour acceptable or representative of Christianity as a whole?

 

I realise you're not looking for a debate but for a platform from which to spout your hate, with that in mind I'll bow of this discussion.

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Curious, have you actually read the primary sources of the Horus account? If you have, could you direct me on where I could locate the primary source?

 

No I have not, like I have not studied the primary sources of Buddha's, Krishna's, Romulus' or Lao-Tze's virgin births. Note how most (if not all of them?) predate the christian mythology. The similarity between the two birth myths is an established fact in the science community around the world. Do you have a scientifically reviewed source that contests this claim?

 

This a translation and discussion of the dozens of fragments that were used to reconstruct the Egyptian mythology by Günther Roeder, a leading egyptologian in Europe. I'm fairly sure with a small investment of time on google.com you'll find a similar piece of research literature in the language of your preference, otherwise you should try the nearest university library.

 

Ägyptische Mythologie in 3 Bänden: Kulte und Orakel / Mythen und Legenden / Die Götterwelt /: Amazon.de: Günther Roeder: Bücher

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