Christianity and War

[Mr Scorpio]

Folks over in the politics section are discussing terrorism. The intersection of terrorism and religion is being discussed. Specifically, which religions are "responsible" for death.

 

Now, it seems to me that Christianity, at least as it exists today, is hardly responsible for any death. At the same time, I do believe it is utilized by the American government to garner support for and/or justify killing.

 

Thus, I am wondering what attitudes are about this? In my limited knowledge of Jesus, he was the ultimate peace-nik. The "turn the other cheek" guy. Are there versus somewhere that support, say, the 2003 invasion of Iraq?

 

Specifically, I'm thinking about these things that I read.

[Toddbt12y1]

Perhaps, if you go back to the Old Testament. But that is a different time and thing all together. Christians follow the New Covenant (New Testament). Although, I loathe politics, which does nothing but divide, rather than unit, I felt the need to comment.

 

Anything can be used for the purpose of war. If the person is good enough, they can use ANYTHING, to justify a means to war. Frankly, one can find many wars started by corrupt religions - as well as many that have been started for various other means.

 

But in short, no. I cannot think of anything in the NT of the Bible to justify killing in the name of Christ. That is a thing mankind decided to do.

[Mr Scorpio]

But in short, no. I cannot think of anything in the NT of the Bible to justify killing in the name of Christ. That is a thing mankind decided to do.

 

Thank you for your response.

[M30USA]

Folks over in the politics section are discussing terrorism. The intersection of terrorism and religion is being discussed. Specifically, which religions are "responsible" for death.

 

Now, it seems to me that Christianity, at least as it exists today, is hardly responsible for any death. At the same time, I do believe it is utilized by the American government to garner support for and/or justify killing.

 

Thus, I am wondering what attitudes are about this? In my limited knowledge of Jesus, he was the ultimate peace-nik. The "turn the other cheek" guy. Are there versus somewhere that support, say, the 2003 invasion of Iraq?

 

Specifically, I'm thinking about these things that I read.

 

Jesus didnt believe in physical, earthly wars. But he did say that he came to bring a "sword" in the sense that the truth he taught would necessarily create a spiritual war within us and among us. It would be such a spiritual conflict that it would break apart families. But he never condoned physical war.

[Ronni_W]

Now, it seems to me that Christianity, at least as it exists today, is hardly responsible for any death.

It might depend on what is believed to be current-day Christianity. Certainly there are no more Crusades, witch hunts and Inquisitions going on...not that Jesus ever did or would agree with any of that. But they were carried out in (extremely wrong, vile, evil use of) his Name.

[carhill]

IME, when politicians or those seeking to focus or mold political power invoke the often deeply held beliefs regarding religion in the masses, or in the ranks of their fighters, they are simply using the time honored tools of emotional manipulation to effect a particular goal.

 

Here's one example:

 

Dec 8, 1941 speech

 

Listen to the last four words, way at the end.

 

"So help us God"

 

That's burning an emotional memory into the minds and souls of the masses. It worked. We kicked Japan's ass and could have easily turned that country of fanatics into an uninhabitable wasteland. We didn't, of course. But the will and invocation was there.

 

I first thought of this a few years ago when riding the Shinkansen from Osaka to Yokohama and passing the Japanese places of worship for their religion. I was glad that things ended and we could regain our former peaceful relations.

Edited September 19, 2014 by carhill

[M30USA]

It might depend on what is believed to be current-day Christianity. Certainly there are no more Crusades, witch hunts and Inquisitions going on...not that Jesus ever did or would agree with any of that. But they were carried out in (extremely wrong, vile, evil use of) his Name.

 

It doesn't matter what current Christianity says or does. The only thing that matters is what Jesus says and what Scripture says.

[pie2]

Thus, I am wondering what attitudes are about this? In my limited knowledge of Jesus, he was the ultimate peace-nik. The "turn the other cheek" guy. Are there versus somewhere that support, say, the 2003 invasion of Iraq?

 

Bible verses about 'just war'

 

Jesus' message of love and peace is the center of Christianity. Turning the other cheek is a righteous goal. But, I've spent a lot of time outside of the US, and there is no country like it.

 

If you were a leader, how could you justify not defending the freedoms we've fought for as a country; freedoms of speech, to vote, and to practice our religious beliefs (whichever those may be) just to name a few. Not to mention defending innocent people are being oppressed or terrorized. "War" seems a necessary evil, in certain instances.

 

But, to specifically justify the 2003 invasion of Iraq, I think there are many complexities I don't know about, so I can't really speak to any "biblical justification". I do think though, that many people around the world (specifically in the Middle East) have a much different view of the invasion than either the left or the right in the US do. There are so many aspects to the problem, and honestly, I'm completely ignorant about it all. I just have a feeling that's it's not the worst thing that's ever happened to the region (nor the best, as some might have us believe...).

 

Just remember that our political leaders are not our spiritual leaders. Their role in this life is meaningful and part of God's plan...but they're operating in this physical world on earth, a world that is broken and torn by sin. In other words, don't hold your breath waiting for all world leaders to hold hands for some kumbaya time.

[Mr Scorpio]

Just remember that our political leaders are not our spiritual leaders. Their role in this life is meaningful and part of God's plan...but they're operating in this physical world on earth, a world that is broken and torn by sin. In other words, don't hold your breath waiting for all world leaders to hold hands for some kumbaya time.

 

I don't expect them to. At the same time, I am surprised by how few people -- who claim to have been reborn and dedicated their lives to the teachings of Jesus -- have little problem with Christianity being used to garner support for war.

[pie2]

I don't expect them to. At the same time, I am surprised by how few people -- who claim to have been reborn and dedicated their lives to the teachings of Jesus -- have little problem with Christianity being used to garner support for war.

 

I know...it does feel hypocritical. But even Jesus got angered at injustice, and "fought" against unrighteous powers. He turned over tables in the marketplace at the temple in his anger at what was going on -- not exactly "peaceful protest".

 

When you say people use Christianity to garner support for war, are you referring to war against the Islamic State? If so, I wonder if many Christians feel that war in that instance would be justified in order to protect God's word from the "unrighteous (Islamic) powers"...?

[Mr Scorpio]

When you say people use Christianity to garner support for war, are you referring to war against the Islamic State? If so, I wonder if many Christians feel that war in that instance would be justified in order to protect God's word from the "unrighteous (Islamic) powers"...?

 

That is how the topic came up in the politics forum. However, I was referring to it in a more general sense: the idea that God must be on our side since we are more righteous than the next nation.

 

So far as I know (which isn't much), Satan offered Jesus control of all nations on Earth. Jesus didn't take the offer, but neither did he deny that Satan had such control to offer. When combined with Jesus noting that his kingdom "was not of this world", Christians are thus taught that all governments of men are fallen and under the sway of Satan.

 

Yet, many people seem willing to cast their lot behind political leaders, and don't bat an eye when the cross (a symbol referring to sacrifice out of love) is comingled with the American flag (a symbol representing a government which is, by the teachings of the Bible, fallen and under the sway of Satan.

[pureinheart]

That is how the topic came up in the politics forum. However, I was referring to it in a more general sense: the idea that God must be on our side since we are more righteous than the next nation.

 

So far as I know (which isn't much), Satan offered Jesus control of all nations on Earth. Jesus didn't take the offer, but neither did he deny that Satan had such control to offer. When combined with Jesus noting that his kingdom "was not of this world", Christians are thus taught that all governments of men are fallen and under the sway of Satan.

 

Yet, many people seem willing to cast their lot behind political leaders, and don't bat an eye when the cross (a symbol referring to sacrifice out of love) is comingled with the American flag (a symbol representing a government which is, by the teachings of the Bible, fallen and under the sway of Satan.

 

Awesome thread Mr. S., when I gather my wits after this last rather taxing 'battle', I'd like to participate in a thoughtful manor, actually maybe putting to rest somethings that have been up in the air. I will try to keep up and research, although this is quite the interesting time for me now. Mr. S, you know I love these threads!

 

Currently my opinion on these matters are (but subject to change as truth prevails)....

 

Jesus was no wimp- He endured the cross, that speaks volumes. Also He came to fulfill the Law, not to do away with it. The question is, what Laws did He fulfill to the point of being done away with? His primary purpose was/is salvation. He fulfilled the payment of sin and those who receive Him as Lord and Savior...I'm speaking of true conversion...their sins are paid in full.

 

IMO we cannot discount the O/T, but I don't know how far that goes. I would like to cite our own Civil War to end slavery.

 

Jesus is a humanitarian. The people of Jesus' day confused His primary purpose, thinking He would save them from the Romans. They saw Him as a political/religious leader and were disappointed and walked away when that didn't come to pass. They tried to control Him and it doesn't work that way as God does not control us even, unless we choose it.

 

The war in Iraq- I think it was of God and do think it was Biblical due to the O/T stating that Babylon would never be rebuilt again and it's my understanding that that is what Saddam was trying to do (I need to look this up to get the exact Scriptures and facts though).

 

Israel- do we shine on what the O/T says about those who bless Israel and those who curse her? God is about land.

 

Another war I'd like to cite is WWII. I strongly believe that God allowed Pearl Harbor to take place as a wake up call...hey get off your backsides and take care of business.

 

Do I think this nation was founded on Christian principles, yes. When the government was in it's early stages there many non Christians and in part I do believe that was the sole purpose for some fleeing from Europe- religious freedom. God doesn't have a problem with that, He is greatly saddened when rejected, although that is why we are given a choice.

 

Anyway, the few active brain cells I had are tired and there is so much more I want to go into....

[TheFinalWord]

In my limited knowledge of Jesus, he was the ultimate peace-nik. The "turn the other cheek" guy.

 

Good, but complex topic.

 

Just to give some additional context, Jesus Himself will make war...established in justice:

 

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.

 

His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

 

Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.

 

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army....the rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

Many of the prophecies discussed in the Old Testament describe the "day of the Lord", much of which has not been fulfilled...

 

One example is Isaiah 11, which prophesied both the earthly ministry of Christ, along with His return:

 

Playing Isaiah 11 by Alexander Scourby - picosong

 

Paul also discusses the role of government in using force to enforce moral law:

 

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

 

For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Edited September 20, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

God the Father is basically going to give all authority over the earth to his son, Christ. The picture we have in Scripture is that God, the Father, is thoroughly pissed at earth and all of us living here. But because of Jesus, and for NO other reason (contrary to what modern pastors teach about you and I having worth and beauty), God is going to hand over the earth to Jesus and let him do whatever he wants with it. Those who are IN HIM he will preserve and have mercy on; those who are not found IN HIM will wish they had never been born.

 

I agree with TFW when he said that Jesus, alone, is righteous enough to wage a just war.

[Mr Scorpio]

I agree with TFW when he said that Jesus, alone, is righteous enough to wage a just war.

 

Perhaps. But unfortunately he isn't the one waging it. Rather, people are waging it in his name.

[Tayla]

I mean no disrepect to this topic as it is at least opening up the conversation. I find it mostly hypocritical for anyone to use the God of their understanding as a tool to create harm of any nature.

I battled mentally with the Commandment of " Thou shalt not kill "and I still cannot understand given that basic commandment that anyone would think it is acceptable to harm a soul GOD created. (unless threatened in survival)

 

Sidebar note:As for a comment on Japan, I bow my head in disgrace that we used an atomic weapon and devasted generations by that manuever. In the short term it stopped the war tactics, in the long run, many folks (innocent) suffered radioactive health concerns.

[M30USA]

Sidebar note:As for a comment on Japan, I bow my head in disgrace that we used an atomic weapon and devasted generations by that manuever. In the short term it stopped the war tactics, in the long run, many folks (innocent) suffered radioactive health concerns.

 

Are you knowledgeable about US-Japan relations in the 1940s. From a general view it's easy to see the atomic bomb as barbaric. It's when you start looking at the specifics that you realize things aren't always as they seem. This doesn't absolve the US of wrongdoing but the tables were more even than most people realize. Japan at that time was pretty savage and ruthless, not only in their war tactics but also how they treated POWs. They were warned several times about our nuke (they knew we had it), yet they persisted. As I said, it's a shame that it happened, but things don't just happen out of the blue in most cases.

Edited September 21, 2014 by M30USA

[pureinheart]

Perhaps. But unfortunately he isn't the one waging it. Rather, people are waging it in his name.

 

Who exactly are you speaking of here? ISIS or Christians?

[pureinheart]

Are you knowledgeable about US-Japan relations in the 1940s. From a general view it's easy to see the atomic bomb as barbaric. It's when you start looking at the specifics that you realize things aren't always as they seem. This doesn't absolve the US of wrongdoing but the tables were more even than most people realize. Japan at that time was pretty savage and ruthless, not only in their war tactics but also how they treated POWs. They were warned several times about our nuke (they knew we had it), yet they persisted. As I said, it's a shame that it happened, but things don't just happen out of the blue in most cases.

 

We have a member that knows someone who was engaged in WWII. The barbarism that was witnessed is indescribable. I don't want to repeat it as it's one of those things that will etch itself in your mind forever. This crime was committed against women that he witnessed and makes ISIS look tame.

[pureinheart]

What does the Bible say about war?

 

Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"

 

Answer: Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

 

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

 

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

 

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

 

Read more: What does the Bible say about war?

Edited September 21, 2014 by pureinheart

[Mr Scorpio]

Who exactly are you speaking of here? ISIS or Christians?

 

Both. ISIS (or is it just IS now?) in the current day, and Christians (or perhaps a Christian) during the second U.S. invasion of Iraq. Beyond that, the general way that nations invoke God -- and his support -- when they

go to war.

 

Beyond that, it goes back to an issue which I've raised before in this forum, the notion that "true followers" of Christ should be ashamed that America identifies itself as a Christian nation.

 

It is not my idea. I got it from here, a source which I have posted before.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Mr Scorpio

[carhill]

Committing oneself to the murdering of one's fellow humans takes a huge leap of faith and that's the primary thrust of religion - faith, belief, trust in concepts beyond ourselves.

 

I remember going through my dad's effects that he had saved from his service in the 8th army in WW2 - besides his rank insignia, medals, a few pinup pictures and some letters to his wife at the time who left him while he was over in Italy, he had a small leather pouch with a well-worn rosary inside it.

 

IMO, it's really difficult for those of us who've never faced death in that way to really understand what people, primarily men at that time, go through to become the murderers of their fellow humans at the order of one human. It takes faith. A lot of it, simply to overcome the fear of death and inhibitions to kill. It takes a fanaticism. Nothing like religion to inspire such belief and faith.

 

Regarding Japan, it's often difficult to reconcile the Japan of today with the empire-building Japan which existed at the time of our last world war. It was simply a different time and place. I learned of most of the atrocities in the Pacific Theater by the Japanese from an uncle, now deceased, who was in the Philippines at the time of the Bataan Death March, though was not captured, and fought numerous battles on islands in the Pacific in the Marines. One could easily see that, especially as he got older, how those experiences had scarred him for life. Yet, he, and other men, reached deep down, found a faith and a belief to keep them engaged and focused on the goal of ridding the planet of the Japanese threat. Sometimes, faith was all they had. It's really beyond our comprehension, IMO. My dad never uttered a word about it. I would only see his perspective much later, after his death, when reading his papers, some penned while in the battle zones. Real eye-opening.

Edited September 21, 2014 by carhill

[UpwardForward]

Both. ISIS (or is it just IS now?) in the current day, and Christians (or perhaps a Christian) during the second U.S. invasion of Iraq. Beyond that, the general way that nations invoke God -- and his support -- when they

go to war.

 

Beyond that, it goes back to an issue which I've raised before in this forum, the notion that "true followers" of Christ should be ashamed that America identifies itself as a Christian nation.

 

It is not my idea. I got it from here, a source which I have posted before.

 

I'm not ashamed.

 

But while America has been known for our humanitarian efforts elsewhere, it is hypocrisy because we allow abortion (baby killing) of our own. Extinction.

 

So much for 'Christianity'.

 

But I do believe we should continue to help others - Any Way we can. That Is Why We Are Here.

Edited September 21, 2014 by UpwardForward

[pureinheart]

Both. ISIS (or is it just IS now?) in the current day, and Christians (or perhaps a Christian) during the second U.S. invasion of Iraq. Beyond that, the general way that nations invoke God -- and his support -- when they

go to war.

 

Beyond that, it goes back to an issue which I've raised before in this forum, the notion that "true followers" of Christ should be ashamed that America identifies itself as a Christian nation.

 

It is not my idea. I got it from here, a source which I have posted before.

 

Oh Lord, did ISIS/ISIL change their name again! I don't know what this nation is anymore thanks to Libs and O, which drove every single Lib belief system home. As for me, I am a believer of Jesus Christ and His laws prevail. I will support what is right and true to protect the innocent. The current Republican system is still on that page for the most part. If that changes they can kiss my backside too. Bottom line is God. I'm in the world, but not of it.

 

Dude, I just want to say this...as far as war goes, some of this stuff is just not human and that's what we may be truly fighting in the natural.

[Tayla]

Are you knowledgeable about US-Japan relations in the 1940s. From a general view it's easy to see the atomic bomb as barbaric. It's when you start looking at the specifics that you realize things aren't always as they seem. This doesn't absolve the US of wrongdoing but the tables were more even than most people realize. Japan at that time was pretty savage and ruthless, not only in their war tactics but also how they treated POWs. They were warned several times about our nuke (they knew we had it), yet they persisted. As I said, it's a shame that it happened, but things don't just happen out of the blue in most cases.

 

to answer your question directly. No.

At the same time I am not a scientist yet I know arsenic will do me more harm if I injest it. So One doesnt need to be affluent on a subject to make an opinion that is based on Harm.

 

we disagree, so it goes.

 

Since this is a topic on religion and spiritual I'll go pray on this. thanks!!