Christians: What does it mean to be saved?

[OpenBook]

The Bible promises that anyone who believes in Jesus as the resurrected Son of God will be saved.

 

Saved from what? Eternal death? Perish (i.e., cease to exist?)

 

Saved TO what? Eternal life? Is that eternal life guaranteed to take place in heaven? I'm thinking of verses related to works such as "faith without works is dead," and "liars, adulterers, coveters, etc. shall not inherit the kingdom of God" ... and all verses that talk about repenting of sin and obeying God's commands.

 

Seems to me there's 4 different events/milestones going on here:

 

1) Being saved

2) Obtaining eternal life (guaranteed if #1 happens)

3) Going to heaven

4) Inheriting the kingdom of God

 

How are these events related - or are any of them the same thing?

[M30USA]

The Bible promises that anyone who believes in Jesus as the resurrected Son of God will be saved.

 

Saved from what? Eternal death? Perish (i.e., cease to exist?)

 

Saved TO what? Eternal life? Is that eternal life guaranteed to take place in heaven? I'm thinking of verses related to works such as "faith without works is dead," and "liars, adulterers, coveters, etc. shall not inherit the kingdom of God" ... and all verses that talk about repenting of sin and obeying God's commands.

 

Seems to me there's 4 different events/milestones going on here:

 

1) Being saved

2) Obtaining eternal life (guaranteed if #1 happens)

3) Going to heaven

4) Inheriting the kingdom of God

 

How are these events related - or are any of them the same thing?

 

This is actually a great post.

 

The exact mechanism which saves us, according to Scripture, is believing upon Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. The only confusion is what exactly this means and how it is evident.

 

The other factors which come into play here are:

 

1) Repentance.

2) Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

3) Showing the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

4) Obedience to the words of Jesus.

5) Remaining in Christ "until the very end".

 

All of the above five, while REQUIRED for salvation, are not the exact mechanism by which we are saved. As Scripture says, we are saved by grave alone in Jesus Christ.

 

So why all the confusion? What about those five things above? Those things are SIGNS of true salvation. In other words, if someone is truly saved, they will exhibit those signs. If anyone says they are saved and do not exhibit those five things, they are deceived and are not truly reborn of the Holy Spirit.

[angel.eyes]

Ugh! I wrote a long response, hit “Submit,” and my phone crashed!

 

Anyway, I suspect you’ll get somewhat different responses from different people.

 

For me, being saved means saved from eternal separation from God. It means I get to have a personal relationship with God and to be in His presence for eternity.

 

Hell is permanent and absolute separation from God for eternity. Heaven is being with God forever with other believers when His Kingdom returns.

 

We are saved by God’s grace alone (Romans 3:22-25; Galatians 3:2-7). The New Testament seems clear on that point from my reading of it.

 

The two convicts who were crucified with Jesus initially joined everyone else in mocking Him (Matthew 27:44). But one eventually came to faith while hanging there dying and was assured by Jesus that he would join him in heaven (Luke 23:40-43). Obviously, he had no time to do “good” works. All he had was his change in heart and his profession. Faith alone is sufficient.

 

So why does the Bible discuss good deeds? Why are we repeatedly instructed to love others--our neighbor, our spouse--as we love ourselves?

 

First, I think it’s a reflection of our love for God as we grow in faith. As a kid, I emulated my parents, particularly my dad. My nephew emulates my brother. When we love, respect, and admire someone, we want to be like them. Wanting to live as Christ did, is a reflection of our love and admiration for Him.

 

Second, it reflects any change that truly occurs in our hearts. Say, I steal money from you, enjoy a fabulous weekend that I couldn't otherwise afford, and on Monday return apologetic, talking about how remorseful I feel about my poor choices and promising never to steal from you. Okay. Maybe I mean it. Who knows? Then Friday rolls around, I sneak in, rifle through your stuff because you've now hidden your money, steal your credit card, and have another fabulous weekend at your expense. Monday morning, I’m back showering you with mea culpas, claiming I feel horrible about robbing you, and promising never to do this again. This pattern continues week after week, year after year. Obviously, nothing has changed despite what I might say. My words professing change are meaningless. My actions indicate that my intention to rob you whenever I need to have fun remains unchanged.

 

Or if you think about the person who claims to be committed to changing to a healthy lifestyle. If he remains implanted on the sofa munching away on junk food, his intent to change isn’t really there. That’s reflected in his choices, behaviors, and health outcomes. The person who is committed to change will go out and buy sneakers, join a gym, recruit a workout buddy, go for a walk/run on a regular basis, change what he purchases at the grocery store…do something…anything…that moves him in a healthier direction. He may still eat junk food occasionally, spend an afternoon on the couch, etc. But we’ll see some external changes in his choices and behavior that reflect his newfound conviction to change, and ultimately some differences in his health outcomes if he sustains those changes. It’s not that he becomes perfect. But he changes in his heart and in his actions.

 

Professing faith is the same way. We all sin, each of us in different ways since we have different weaknesses. That’s our human nature. We were born that way. If we sincerely embrace our faith and Christ’s teachings, however, there should be a change in our heart, and consequently some changes in our behavior. It’s not that we become perfect or completely stop sinning. We are incapable of that, which is why Christ had to save us in the first place. But we should have some improvement in our actions and choices. The person who continues to sin blithely with no attempt even to try and follow Jesus’ teachings has probably not had a change in heart. Of course, only he and God know where his heart really is.

 

That’s my take on passages such as James 2:14-26 that you referenced.

 

What is your take on your questions? I’m interested in your thoughts and interpretation.

[TheFinalWord]

This is actually a great post.

 

The exact mechanism which saves us, according to Scripture, is believing upon Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less. The only confusion is what exactly this means and how it is evident.

 

The other factors which come into play here are:

 

1) Repentance.

2) Confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

3) Showing the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

4) Obedience to the words of Jesus.

5) Remaining in Christ "until the very end".

 

All of the above five, while REQUIRED for salvation, are not the exact mechanism by which we are saved. As Scripture says, we are saved by grave alone in Jesus Christ.

 

So why all the confusion? What about those five things above? Those things are SIGNS of true salvation. In other words, if someone is truly saved, they will exhibit those signs. If anyone says they are saved and do not exhibit those five things, they are deceived and are not truly reborn of the Holy Spirit.

 

Good analysis.

 

If you want more theology you can research Ordo Salutis: http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis

1. Foreknowledge
   
2. Predestination
   
3. Election
   
4. Regeneration
   
5. Evangelism
   
6. Faith
   
7. Conversion
   
8. Perseverance
   
9. Repentance
   
10. Justification
    
11. Sanctification
    
12. Glorification
    

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

The main distinction between the Protestant church is the ordering of these steps and the causal mechanisms between them. Most of the debate can be viewed under two systems: Reformed and Arminian.

 

In the reformed tradition the steps are: election and predestination, evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. In the arminian tradition, evangelism is first, faith and election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

 

BTW, these do not need to be seen as wholly distinct processes. Many occur simultaneously and all depend upon the work of God (the main difference with Christianity is that salvation cannot be earned; salvation is not achieved by works).

Edited April 28, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[OpenBook]

Thanks for the responses. I guess what all my questions boil down to is, I don't think being saved automatically means we're going to heaven when we die.

 

I mean, even Satan believes in the Christ and has a personal relationship with God. An adversarial one to be sure! but a relationship nonetheless. He certainly isn't saved (or is he? isn't he immortal? didn't he used to be one of the most powerful angels in heaven?). In any case, I certainly don't want to end up like him or with him!!!!!

 

The more I research this, the more it seems to me that being saved does NOT guarantee you a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, bypassing judgment and getting a straight shot to heaven.

 

We'll still be judged for everything we did (and felt, and thought, and wished for) on earth, our hearts examined by God with a fine-tooth comb... and based on His decision at that time, we'll be rewarded or punished for our works - and we could STILL end up in hell. Right?

 

If that's the case, then the term "being saved" is rather deceptive to me, the way we've been interpreting it anyway. I don't think it's the same thing as "going to heaven" or "inheriting the kingdom of God."

 

It's more along the lines of, you're put on a new path. Where that path leads to is determined by WHAT WE DO with our lives, and how God will judge us for that. Believing in Jesus isn't going to give us a free pass out of that on Judgment Day.

 

Am I wrong?

Edited April 28, 2014 by OpenBook

[angel.eyes]

Very interesting line of thinking! Thanks for raising it.

 

Thinking off the top of my head--

 

Satan may believe in God, but does he see Him as all-powerful? I don't think so. Isn't that the basis for his adversarial relationship with God? He thinks he can out-do God? Isn't that why he tries to undermine God by twisting His words, tricking mankind, creating doubt and disbelief in humans, and generally distracting us from God and what God wants us to do? He believes he can win against God. Wasn't that why he and his followers were cast out?

 

Then I think of the way he uses man to prove this point. I think of Adam and Eve happily minding their own business until he sidled up to them in the Garden of Eden and planted seeds of doubt and disobedience. The goal was to get them to stop believing and obeying everything God told them, and ultimately, to get them to follow him instead. How about the story of Job?

 

Sure, he knows God exists. But he's convinced that he can beat God. We unfortunately are pawns stuck in the cross hairs of that struggle.

 

Part of being a Christian is accepting that God is all-powerful...that we can only gain true happiness, eternal life and salvation through Him. We are wholly incapable without Him. Satan may know God exists, but he doesn't accept that piece of the story. He is convinced he can and shall do better than God. His behavior and his actions reflect what is in his heart.

 

ETA: He doesn't believe God is the only possible path. So he can't be saved, meaning he's permanently banished from God's presence.

 

I rambled, but hopefully my comments are semi-understandable anyway.

Edited April 29, 2014 by angel.eyes

[M30USA]

Jesus says it's possible for those who, at one time, genuinely believed the Gospel to fall away because of the "cares of this world" or when persecution comes. Read the parable of the seeds in Matthew 13.

[pie2]

Thanks for the responses. I guess what all my questions boil down to is, I don't think being saved automatically means we're going to heaven when we die...Am I wrong?

 

OP, in addition to the great posts here, there are many bible commentaries online. Gill's exposition is one example:

 

 

Acts 16 Gill's Exposition

 

 

And they said' date=' believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,.... Not with a bare historical faith, as only to believe that he was the Son of God, and the Messiah, and that he was come in the flesh, and had suffered, and died, and rose again, and was now in heaven at the right hand of God, and would come again to judge both quick and dead, for there may be such a faith and no salvation; but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him; the answer is much the same our Lord returned to the Jews, when they asked, though not with the same affection and sincerity as this man, what they must do to work the works of God, John 6:28.

 

 

And thou shalt be saved; from sin, and all its miserable effects and consequences; from the curses of the law, from the power of Satan, from the evil of the world, from the wrath of God, hell and damnation: this is to be understood of a spiritual and eternal salvation; for it is said, after that the jailer was inquiring about it, being terrified in his conscience with a sense of sin and wrath; and between believing in Christ, and being saved with an everlasting salvation, there is a strict and inseparable connection, Mark 16:16 though not faith, but Christ is the cause and author of salvation; faith spies salvation in Christ, goes to him for it, receives it from him, and believes unto it: and thy house; or family, provided they believe in Christ also, as they did, Acts 16:34 or otherwise there can be no salvation, for he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

 

Good analysis.

 

If you want more theology you can research Ordo Salutis: http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis

 

1. Foreknowledge
   
2. Predestination
   
3. Election
   
4. Regeneration
   
5. Evangelism
   
6. Faith
   
7. Conversion
   
8. Perseverance
   
9. Repentance
   
10. Justification
    
11. Sanctification
    
12. Glorification
    

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

The main distinction between the Protestant church is the ordering of these steps and the causal mechanisms between them. Most of the debate can be viewed under two systems: Reformed and Arminian.

 

In the reformed tradition the steps are: election and predestination, evangelism, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. In the arminian tradition, evangelism is first, faith and election, repentance, regeneration, justification, perseverance, and glorification.

 

BTW, these do not need to be seen as wholly distinct processes. Many occur simultaneously and all depend upon the work of God (the main difference with Christianity is that salvation cannot be earned; salvation is not achieved by works).

 

 

Love this! Very helpful

Very interesting line of thinking! Thanks for raising it.

 

Thinking off the top of my head--

 

Satan may believe in God, but does he see Him as all-powerful? I don't think so. Isn't that the basis for his adversarial relationship with God? He thinks he can out-do God? Isn't that why he tries to undermine God by twisting His words, tricking mankind, creating doubt and disbelief in humans, and generally distracting us from God and what God wants us to do? He believes he can win against God. Wasn't that why he and his followers were cast out?

 

Then I think of the way he uses man to prove this point. I think of Adam and Eve happily minding their own business until he sidled up to them in the Garden of Eden and planted seeds of doubt and disobedience. The goal was to get them to stop believing and obeying everything God told them, and ultimately, to get them to follow him instead. How about the story of Job?

 

Sure, he knows God exists. But he's convinced that he can beat God. We unfortunately are pawns stuck in the cross hairs of that struggle.

 

Part of being a Christian is accepting that God is all-powerful...that we can only gain true happiness, eternal life and salvation through Him. We are wholly incapable without Him. Satan may know God exists, but he doesn't accept that piece of the story. He is convinced he can and shall do better than God. His behavior and his actions reflect what is in his heart.

 

ETA: He doesn't believe God is the only possible path. So he can't be saved, meaning he's permanently banished from God's presence.

 

I rambled, but hopefully my comments are semi-understandable anyway.

 

 

Very understandable! Thank you

[quankanne]

Father Bob, a priest friend, had the best answer I heard for the "are you saved" query. His response? "I have been saved, I am being saved, I shall continue to be saved."

 

1. I have been saved ... because Jesus offered himself up as a sacrifice for humanity's collective sins, thus freeing us up to an eternal, unfettered relationship with God.

 

2. I am being saved … we are all works in progress, and our spiritual side is no exception. We slip, we slide, we rebound ~ we are continually reinforcing our salvation through the choices we make in our lifetime.

 

3. I shall continue to be saved ... God's mercy is great; his grace will always be there for us, allowing us salvation at any point, is how I see it.

 

I hate that term, "being saved," though. Because it's too simplistic a way to describe such a deep, rich relationship with The Big Guy. I see it as "I am his, and he is mine." Period. I goof up, but still I belong to him, and nothing will ever take him away from me, you know?

 

as for what salvation means in the larger scope? Definitely the assurance of "I am his, and he is mine," but also the knowledge that on this plane and in the afterlife, I get to groove with someone I love. And to me, heaven will be that perfect situation where we are together, mutually loving each other, without the all the situations and whammies and curveballs that life throws at us humans. And that's pretty cool, IMO.

[reardon]

Thanks for the responses. I guess what all my questions boil down to is, I don't think being saved automatically means we're going to heaven when we die.

 

I mean, even Satan believes in the Christ and has a personal relationship with God. An adversarial one to be sure! but a relationship nonetheless. He certainly isn't saved (or is he? isn't he immortal? didn't he used to be one of the most powerful angels in heaven?). In any case, I certainly don't want to end up like him or with him!!!!!

 

The more I research this, the more it seems to me that being saved does NOT guarantee you a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, bypassing judgment and getting a straight shot to heaven.

 

We'll still be judged for everything we did (and felt, and thought, and wished for) on earth, our hearts examined by God with a fine-tooth comb... and based on His decision at that time, we'll be rewarded or punished for our works - and we could STILL end up in hell. Right?

 

If that's the case, then the term "being saved" is rather deceptive to me, the way we've been interpreting it anyway. I don't think it's the same thing as "going to heaven" or "inheriting the kingdom of God."

 

It's more along the lines of, you're put on a new path. Where that path leads to is determined by WHAT WE DO with our lives, and how God will judge us for that. Believing in Jesus isn't going to give us a free pass out of that on Judgment Day.

 

Am I wrong?

 

You're right when you said that we will be judge for everything we did. However, the word being saved is not deceptive. Yes, we are save when we believe in Jesus Christ but we have to work out that salvation with fear and trembling (phil. 2:12). Meaning, salvation can be lose when we still live the same life before we come to God. So, we should willing to be transform by God. If we want to be save.

[TheFinalWord]

Jesus says it's possible for those who, at one time, genuinely believed the Gospel to fall away because of the "cares of this world" or when persecution comes. Read the parable of the seeds in Matthew 13.

 

M30 do you believe in eternal security?

[TheFinalWord]

I hate that term, "being saved," though. Because it's too simplistic a way to describe such a deep, rich relationship with The Big Guy. I see it as "I am his, and he is mine." Period. I goof up, but still I belong to him, and nothing will ever take him away from me, you know?

 

Awesome!

 

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

[OpenBook]

So I take it you all believe that salvation = going to heaven?

 

I'm not doubting God; there is no doubt in my mind that He comes through for us. I'm doubting MY OWN ABILITY to bear the fruit that pleases Him. Partly because I know I'm weak. And partly because I'm not 100% sure what that fruit looks like. I know about the Fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, long-suffering, etc. Am I adequately producing that fruit? What yardstick do you use to measure that?

 

If I am saved but bear no fruit for Him, am I doomed to hell?

[M30USA]

So I take it you all believe that salvation = going to heaven?

 

I'm not doubting God; there is no doubt in my mind that He comes through for us. I'm doubting MY OWN ABILITY to bear the fruit that pleases Him. Partly because I know I'm weak. And partly because I'm not 100% sure what that fruit looks like. I know about the Fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, long-suffering, etc. Am I adequately producing that fruit? What yardstick do you use to measure that?

 

If I am saved but bear no fruit for Him, am I doomed to hell?

 

What do you mean when you say you bear no fruit? What do you believe are fruits?

 

Jesus did say that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. Jesus implied that its impossible to truly be saved and not bear fruit. Such people he would say are not truly saved but merely say "Lord, Lord".

[OpenBook]

What do you mean when you say you bear no fruit? What do you believe are fruits?

 

That's what I'm asking!! What does God (not me) consider "bearing fruit"?

 

Jesus did say that any tree which does not bear fruit will be cut down and cast into the fire. Jesus implied that its impossible to truly be saved and not bear fruit. Such people he would say are not truly saved but merely say "Lord, Lord".

 

Exactly! So - what did He mean by "fruit"? What does that fruit look like?

[OpenBook]

This is so frustrating.

[M30USA]

That's what I'm asking!! What does God (not me) consider "bearing fruit"?

 

 

 

Exactly! So - what did He mean by "fruit"? What does that fruit look like?

 

Unfortunately there is not a single verse which encompasses everything. It requires understanding.

 

The first verse which most people point to when answering this question is Galatians 5:22-23...

 

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

 

The obvious problem with reading only this verse is that clearly non-believers can exhibit some of those traits (love, gentleness, etc). This is because of what theologians refer to as the "common grace of God". Certain good things are found in people and in the world for no other reason than God puts them there and he is restraining us and the world from TOTAL depravity and evil. So the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5 are evidences of salvation BUT they can also be seen in non-believers. I think the take home point is that, while some gray area exists, what we know for sure is that if a person claims to believe in Christ but exhibits none of these, they are lying.

 

OpenBook, just based on my observations, it's usually the people who question whether or not they have true salvation that actually do. Those who don't are often preoccupied with things of this world and generally don't think about the things of God and the Holy Spirit.

Edited April 30, 2014 by M30USA

[angel.eyes]

That's what I'm asking!! What does God (not me) consider "bearing fruit"?

 

 

 

Exactly! So - what did He mean by "fruit"? What does that fruit look like?

 

Open Book, how have you changed since becoming a Christian? Do you continue to make progress? Are you growing? Are you sincere about your faith? Are you making a sincere effort to live a life pleasing to God? Are you actively working on eliminating sinful behavior that lays heavily on your heart?

 

Questioning whether we are doing everything that we can to be good Christians is valuable. So is questioning and examining our understanding of our faith. It helps us to grow, which is awesome.

 

...I'm doubting MY OWN ABILITY to bear the fruit that pleases Him. Partly because I know I'm weak. And partly because I'm not 100% sure what that fruit looks like...Am I adequately producing that fruit? What yardstick do you use to measure that?

 

If I am saved but bear no fruit for Him, am I doomed to hell?

This isn't an attempt to criticize, offend, or discourage your line of thinking. Still, I guess I'm a little concerned by your focus. It's almost as if you're asking if your good works will be sufficient in God's eyes to guarantee you salvation...to guarantee that you are kept you from eternal damnation. Maybe, I'm overly sensitive or reading too much into your comments. But just in case I'm not...

 

Is it possible that while well-intentioned, this concentration on good works is a ploy to refocus you from what is in your heart? To get you to question your faith and what you believe? I don't know. I'm just asking if that might be a possibility.

 

Think about the conversation the snake had with Eve. He started by subtly twisting a very simple instruction into something completely different to engage Eve. Eve corrected him, but his goal was accomplished. He'd refocused her from everything else to one issue that had been a complete non-issue, and eventually used that to create doubt, disbelief, anxiety that she might be missing something, and ultimately disobedience. She followed his guidance rather than God's. Adam opted to join the party rather than risk missing out too. If you will, that's a war that rages on in all our hearts.

 

Think about the Pharisees. These were godly men who took their religion and its practices very seriously. They dedicated their lives to God, and most were sincere in trying to do their very best. Why were they rebuked by Jesus? Because they became misguided and focused on what they did (their works) rather than what was in their heart. Many had neglected what was in their hearts at the expense of good works. It got in the way. They were led astray. I guess the road to hell can be paved with good intentions.

 

I'm not insinuating in any way that this is the case here. Just suggesting a little caution since faith and the constancy of God's grace seem to be discounted, lost, or completely overlooked in this conversation.

 

God knows what's in our hearts. Are you actively working on what's in your heart? Are you focused on things that will help you grow in your faith? (These are questions to ask yourself privately. You don't have to share the answers with us.) He knows whether we are sincere in our faith. Salvation is by his grace alone. Good works will never save you or guarantee you salvation. Only a belief in Christ's saving blood can do that. Again, think of the convict on the cross beside Jesus. God knew what was in his heart. If he were to be judge based on his works, his fate would be very different. Since we are fallible humans, we are incapable of measuring up to God's yardstick of good on our own. Only Jesus could. Hence our need to humble ourselves and depend solely on his grace for salvation, not our good works. Our good works are a reflection of our love for Him, not a contract or a recipe guaranteeing salvation.

 

Anyway, that's my interpretation from reading the Bible. Hopefully, it's helpful.

 

I'll pray that you find the answers and peace you need.

[TheFinalWord]

I'm doubting MY OWN ABILITY to bear the fruit that pleases Him.

 

In other words, you are realizing your works aren't enough Sounds like you are having a hard time understanding how God can be so merciful. To me, that is a tell-tale sign of salvation. One of the issues in struggling with the issue of faith, is understanding HOW God could love us so much. To me, it's not science or philosophy that I need "to be persuaded" (faith), its understanding how the God of the universe can be so graceful...despite your inability (and mine) to please Him...

 

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him,and the son of man that you care for him?

 

For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

 

What yardstick do you use to measure that?

 

Trust Jesus to see you to the end, not your own yardstick. Jesus is the yardstick, and no one can measure him. Our yardstick will ALWAYS come up short.

 

The crazy thing (and hard to undestand) is it is God that calls us and GOD that preserves us.

 

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

Not everyone has the same calling.

 

This is so frustrating.

 

Salvation

 

Please watch

[angel.eyes]

So I take it you all believe that salvation = going to heaven?

 

I'm not doubting God; there is no doubt in my mind that He comes through for us. I'm doubting MY OWN ABILITY to bear the fruit that pleases Him. Partly because I know I'm weak. And partly because I'm not 100% sure what that fruit looks like. I know about the Fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, patience, long-suffering, etc. Am I adequately producing that fruit? What yardstick do you use to measure that?

 

If I am saved but bear no fruit for Him, am I doomed to hell?

 

Sorry...again, this isn't criticism or judgment. Just a friendly caution and a sincere attempt to help you with your struggle. I want to be more direct, and hopefully clearer about what concerned me in your post...why I questioned whether well-intentioned thinking might have begun veering off the rails. If you follow your statements logically, you doubt your ability to do sufficient good...that will guarantee you salvation or keep you from eternal damnation. (What is the yardstick? Which good works? etc.)

 

It's not about YOUR ability (or my ability). It never will be! All of us are completely incapable without God's help or support. It's about God granting you grace and mercy to do what is right. I try to focus on depending on Him to help me do what is right, rather than worrying about my determination, willpower, etc. Satan wants us to stop turning to God support. Satan wants us to think its about what we can do ourselves.

[angel.eyes]

TFW, I guess we were typing at the same time. Your response conveys much of what I was thinking, but it's way more compassionate. A weakness I need to work on.

[M30USA]

One subtle irony that I've noticed on this subject...

 

The ones who hold what I call a "cheap grace" view of salvation (or that works in no way indicate salvation) are the same ones who typically believe they are "good people". In other words, if you believe grace is the end of story and works don't matter at all, you are likely to not believe in radical depravity. These are the ones who Christ will cast away from him and they will say, "...Did we noy cast out demons in your name?...[etc]" You'll notice this statement implies their view of their own good works. Yet these are the ones who, all along, promoted grace grace grace and shunned legalism. This is highly ironic to me. You'd think it would be the opposite.

[Allumere]

This has been a great thread with awesome answers. I often wonder as this is something that tends to get in my way at times (and currently is a healing wound) if perhaps some of the burden felt by (for lack of a better word) or concern by Openbook is driven by "requirements" that the various flavors of Christians seem to focus on. The message tends to be one of "do all or you fail" verses the organic process that occurs when someone becomes a Christian and their relationship with God evolves.

[M30USA]

This has been a great thread with awesome answers. I often wonder as this is something that tends to get in my way at times (and currently is a healing wound) if perhaps some of the burden felt by (for lack of a better word) or concern by Openbook is driven by "requirements" that the various flavors of Christians seem to focus on. The message tends to be one of "do all or you fail" verses the organic process that occurs when someone becomes a Christian and their relationship with God evolves.

 

Fruit is not a requirement. It's a sign.

 

No fruit? Then the salvation is false and illegitimate.

 

Paul said, "Faith without works is dead".

 

Jesus himself said the tree which does not produce fruit will be cut down and burned. He said this because, while you can't outwardly "see" salvation (since it's a belief), you CAN see actions and our actions are evidence. These are not my own words. They are Jesus' words. He repeated the phrase TWICE in Matthew.

 

In order to understand the relationship between faith and works, this is a MUST READ:

 

James 2:14-26

 

What I do admit is that works CAN take various forms. As TFW said, we all have different callings. But there SHOULD be some kind of works. I personally do not feel called to provide physical needs like food to poor, etc, but the Spirit presses on my heart to endlessly teach the Gospel every single chance I get. I don't even feel like Im forced into it. I often have to be told to hold back. But I know I would never use this as a reason for why God should allow me into heaven. I am saved first. Then the works follow. And they have been planted in me by God, not myself.

Edited April 30, 2014 by M30USA

[Allumere]

Fruit is not a requirement. It's a sign.

 

No fruit? Then the salvation is false and illegitimate.

 

Paul said, "Faith without works is dead".

 

Jesus himself said the tree which does not produce fruit will be cut down and burned. He said this because, while you can't outwardly "see" salvation (since it's a belief), you CAN see actions and our actions are evidence. These are not my own words. They are Jesus' words. He repeated the phrase TWICE in Matthew.

 

In order to understand the relationship between faith and works, this is a MUST READ:

 

James 2:14-26

 

What I do admit is that works CAN take various forms. As TFW said, we all have different callings. But there SHOULD be some kind of works. I personally do not feel called to provide physical needs like food to poor, etc, but the Spirit presses on my heart to endlessly teach the Gospel every single chance I get. I don't even feel like Im forced into it. I often have to be told to hold back. But I know I would never use this as a reason for why God should allow me into heaven. I am saved first. Then the works follow. And they have been planted in me by God, not myself.

 

That is what I was getting at M3. Some churches (or individuals) have very specific interpretations about what the works are and how they should be executed. I would not say that the "what" is without merit BUT the "only one right way" message that comes across sometimes is what can feel burdensome and result in some of the questions OpenBook had. Now of course that may not be the case for OpenBook but I have certainly have seen it and experienced it.