what does this mean?

[janedoe67]

I was wondering what you all think this passage means?

 

" 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

I John 1:8,9

[contact1]

I was wondering what you all think this passage means?

 

" 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

I John 1:8,9

 

My take on it:

 

8: Every human being is with sin, failure to acknowledge is simply fooling yourself and you are lying to yourself

9: By admitting and acknowledging that you are with sin, god will lead you down the path of forgiveness of your sin, in essence making you a better person

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

It seems self-explanatory to me; what difficulties are you experiencing with it?

 

Understanding it - or believing it?

[janedoe67]

My take on it:

 

8: Every human being is with sin, failure to acknowledge is simply fooling yourself and you are lying to yourself

9: By admitting and acknowledging that you are with sin, god will lead you down the path of forgiveness of your sin, in essence making you a better person

 

I think it is the "forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness part."

 

If we are cleansed of all unrighteousness.....doesn't that mean we are no longer dirty?

[TaraMaiden]

Yes, but sadly, we are born with Original Sin and destined to continue making wrong choices. A Roman Catholic will go to confession, and be absolved, with some penitent act to perform; but you can rely on their doing it again, and again, and again.

We sin; we repeat. But providing you put your trust in Jesus and turn to him for absolution, and truly repent of your past sins - forgiveness is yours.

 

Which would suggest that a repeat murderer, providing he is truly remorseful for his actions, will be forgiven by his Saviour. Repeatedly....

I cannot go further into the morality of such thought, as I have chosen to abandon following a religion with a God-head, personally....

[sagetalk]

Matthew 11-12

11 Give us this day our daily bread,[c]

12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

 

The Lord's prayer is a daily prayer, and it asks for God to forgive us of our debts (sins are our debt to God). When we repent by going to the Father through Jesus, God forgives us because of the blood sacrifice Jesus gave on the cross. Just as Israel had to kill an animal for sins in the Old Testament, Jesus was our Blood sacrifice, but we must ask forgiveness as Jesus instructed us.

[M30USA]

They are basically verses to prevent us from having a "works-based salvation". In other words, if someone says that they are going to heaven because they have stopped sinning against God, they are a liar, according to those verses. Salvation is through grace alone in Jesus Christ.

 

However, with these things being said, we are still expected to repent and continually seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are not to remain complacent in sin just because we know Jesus will forgive us. People who do this speak the name of the Lord with their mouths and claim to know him, but at the end Jesus will say to them: "Away from me! I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:23)

Edited April 19, 2014 by M30USA

[Arieswoman]

There are cults which deny the reality of sin, who say that sin is but "an error of mortal mind." Sin, they say, has no real existence, it is a mere figment of the imagination, and all that is necessary to deal with sin is to correct your thinking. You will recognize that this teaching is widespread. It is represented by groups such as Christian Science, the Unity School of Christianity, and Religious Science. Also, it is widespread in non-Christian religions such as Theosophy, Hinduism, and Buddhism. They teach this concept that sin does not really exist, it is merely in the mind. Truth exists, and good exists, but sin does not have objective reality.

 

Unfortunately there are many who are Christians who have fallen into this trap and believe that sin merely calls for an adjustment in their thinking. The truth as it is revealed in Jesus says quite differently. According to the word of the Lord, both directly from his own lips and through the Apostles that followed, the truth is that sin is a very objective reality. It does exist, it is always a present possibility. It finds its final expression in the great hosts of satanically-controlled beings who are at work in the world, influencing and controlling the thinking of men.

Sin is personified in the person of the adversary, the devil, but it exists as a very powerful and persuasive factor in life. To treat it as though it is not there is to practice self-deception and to become the victim of it's delusions.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Arieswoman

[TheFinalWord]

I was wondering what you all think this passage means?

 

" 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

 

I John 1:8,9

 

It is basically saying that if we claim we do not have sin, and therefore state we have no need of a savior, we essentially call God a liar and make the death of His Son a mockery.

"Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son...Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

[janedoe67]

Here is my problem.

 

I am a sinner. I am also a Christian. Based on His grace, I repented of sin and gave him my life in college. Because my salvation is by His grace and I did nothing to earn it, it is based on His sacrifice, I cannot take credit for having it or live perfectly enough to "keep" it.

 

He is perfect - the only perfect One to ever walk the earth. And He forgives.

 

I have sinned much since my salvation. I sinned today - anger (and not, not the righteous kind). I confessed, He forgave.

 

If we believe that ALL Scripture is god-breathed, that His word "is settled forever in Heaven," (Psa 119:89), then it follows that if we confess and repent He forgives and separates our sin as far as the east is from the west.

 

So......if the One who I sinned most grievously against, the One who had to die because of my sin, can forgive me and see me as righteous....

 

I'm not even sure what I am asking. There just seems to be a disconnect between the idea that Christians say they believe this (because they claim to believe all of Gods Word) and yet they still hold others accountab le for things that Jesus Himself has cleansed.

 

If the Bible is true, and I am called to believe and live according to ALL of it, then how is this possible?

[sagetalk]

and yet they still hold others accountable for things that Jesus Himself has cleansed.

 

If the Bible is true, and I am called to believe and live according to ALL of it, then how is this possible?

 

What do you mean hold them accountable? People who are unrepentant should be held accountable. However, if they are repentant, the scripture tells us to forgive. It's a fairly simple concept. It's not complicated at all.

[M30USA]

Here is my problem.

 

I am a sinner. I am also a Christian. Based on His grace, I repented of sin and gave him my life in college. Because my salvation is by His grace and I did nothing to earn it, it is based on His sacrifice, I cannot take credit for having it or live perfectly enough to "keep" it.

 

He is perfect - the only perfect One to ever walk the earth. And He forgives.

 

I have sinned much since my salvation. I sinned today - anger (and not, not the righteous kind). I confessed, He forgave.

 

If we believe that ALL Scripture is god-breathed, that His word "is settled forever in Heaven," (Psa 119:89), then it follows that if we confess and repent He forgives and separates our sin as far as the east is from the west.

 

So......if the One who I sinned most grievously against, the One who had to die because of my sin, can forgive me and see me as righteous....

 

I'm not even sure what I am asking. There just seems to be a disconnect between the idea that Christians say they believe this (because they claim to believe all of Gods Word) and yet they still hold others accountab le for things that Jesus Himself has cleansed.

 

If the Bible is true, and I am called to believe and live according to ALL of it, then how is this possible?

 

 

I think I know what you're asking. You're trying to figure out why we still try to hold each other accountable for sin when, according to the Bible, Jesus has cleansed us from our sins. On the one hand, we are told that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (including sin, presumably); and on the other hand, we are warned against the damage of sin even as believers. I'm not sure anyone has the final wisdom on this. I just try to take it at face value. I try to act as if there is no forgiveness, but when I mess up, I know that I will be forgiven. I think what really grieves God is when we take advantage of his forgiveness. That's the heart of the issue I think.

[pureinheart]

Here is my problem.

 

I am a sinner. I am also a Christian. Based on His grace, I repented of sin and gave him my life in college. Because my salvation is by His grace and I did nothing to earn it, it is based on His sacrifice, I cannot take credit for having it or live perfectly enough to "keep" it.

 

He is perfect - the only perfect One to ever walk the earth. And He forgives.

 

I have sinned much since my salvation. I sinned today - anger (and not, not the righteous kind). I confessed, He forgave.

 

If we believe that ALL Scripture is god-breathed, that His word "is settled forever in Heaven," (Psa 119:89), then it follows that if we confess and repent He forgives and separates our sin as far as the east is from the west.

 

So......if the One who I sinned most grievously against, the One who had to die because of my sin, can forgive me and see me as righteous....

 

I'm not even sure what I am asking. There just seems to be a disconnect between the idea that Christians say they believe this (because they claim to believe all of Gods Word) and yet they still hold others accountab le for things that Jesus Himself has cleansed.

 

If the Bible is true, and I am called to believe and live according to ALL of it, then how is this possible?

 

M30 is right, it's a matter of the heart. If sin were not a concern it would be a problem. Please don't take this wrong, although God knows we will sin- we live in sinful bodies and a sinful world, and I almost want to say He expects us to sin.

 

Paul struggled with this big time.

 

It's weird, sin does separates us from God possibly in the backslidden state when we are not subject to Jesus, but yet still saved. When we submit ourselves again the separation seems to end and there is peace.

 

I wish I had a brain right now because I have a lot of experience with sin, Divine Woodsheds and such. I know how to explain my experiences because I've analyzed them, just can't get it out of my head and on this post- hope this bit helps though:o

[pureinheart]

I think I know what you're asking. You're trying to figure out why we still try to hold each other accountable for sin when, according to the Bible, Jesus has cleansed us from our sins. On the one hand, we are told that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (including sin, presumably); and on the other hand, we are warned against the damage of sin even as believers. I'm not sure anyone has the final wisdom on this. I just try to take it at face value. I try to act as if there is no forgiveness, but when I mess up, I know that I will be forgiven. I think what really grieves God is when we take advantage of his forgiveness. That's the heart of the issue I think.

 

Love this…well the entire post also...

[TheFinalWord]

There just seems to be a disconnect between the idea that Christians say they believe this (because they claim to believe all of Gods Word) and yet they still hold others accountab le for things that Jesus Himself has cleansed.

 

What is sounds like you are touching on is the paradox of forgiveness and consequences.

 

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap"

 

Forgiveness is relational; consequences are circumstantial. Consider the thief on the cross. He received forgiveness from Christ, but still received the consequence of his decisions.

[janedoe67]

What is sounds like you are touching on is the paradox of forgiveness and consequences.

 

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap"

 

Forgiveness is relational; consequences are circumstantial. Consider the thief on the cross. He received forgiveness from Christ, but still received the consequence of his decisions.

 

Exactly. I heard a preacher once say, "Because of Jesus, we are spared the eternal consequences of sin, but that does not necessarily mean we are spared the earthy consequences." That makes sense to me.

 

I think about the man I married. I hurt him deeply - HIM. HE was hurt. And yet he has forgiven. And yet people I did not hurt, some I do not even know, who claim to believe God's Word, keep me in that box. I did repent. I did work and am working on living out the changes. I accept the earthly consequences from those I actually hurt.

 

I used to be that way. If a girl got pregnant, her fault and no compassion. When I found out one of my college friends had had an abortion after being raped, I dropped her. When I found out a boy/guy I dated in grad school was not a virgin, I dumped him. Didn't matter that it happened when he was 16 and wild but now he was 23 and godly. If you really loved Jesus you wouldn't do such things. Heck, I burned record albums.

 

Now I see just how desperately I need God's grace. That it is true that if we keep the whole law but stumble at one point, we are guilty of breaking all of it. I was never doing God some favor by giving Him the benefit of wonderful me.

 

Do people just have to fall themselves to understand what forgiveness is? Wait, we HAVE all fallen.

[pureinheart]

Exactly. I heard a preacher once say, "Because of Jesus, we are spared the eternal consequences of sin, but that does not necessarily mean we are spared the earthy consequences." That makes sense to me.

 

I think about the man I married. I hurt him deeply - HIM. HE was hurt. And yet he has forgiven. And yet people I did not hurt, some I do not even know, who claim to believe God's Word, keep me in that box. I did repent. I did work and am working on living out the changes. I accept the earthly consequences from those I actually hurt.

 

I used to be that way. If a girl got pregnant, her fault and no compassion. When I found out one of my college friends had had an abortion after being raped, I dropped her. When I found out a boy/guy I dated in grad school was not a virgin, I dumped him. Didn't matter that it happened when he was 16 and wild but now he was 23 and godly. If you really loved Jesus you wouldn't do such things. Heck, I burned record albums.

 

Now I see just how desperately I need God's grace. That it is true that if we keep the whole law but stumble at one point, we are guilty of breaking all of it. I was never doing God some favor by giving Him the benefit of wonderful me.

 

Do people just have to fall themselves to understand what forgiveness is? Wait, we HAVE all fallen.

 

Happy Resurrection Day!

 

The thought that came to mind is- after pride comes the fall. Having been very self-righteous in life (still am) I forced Gods hand to take me through many things in order to learn compassion.

 

IMO pride is a direct result from hurt, a defense mechanism. This could be why forgiveness is life to the forgiver.

 

JD, your thread is so thoughtful and real- thank you.

 

TFW, the Scripture you used has been running through my head as of late- God will not be mocked… I am seeing the power and the awesomeness of God all around me. Some are hurtful things that are hard to watch, although God will not be mocked.

[M30USA]

Exactly. I heard a preacher once say, "Because of Jesus, we are spared the eternal consequences of sin, but that does not necessarily mean we are spared the earthy consequences." That makes sense to me.

 

That is awesome.

 

One thing I'd even add is that earthly consequences for sin are actually a MERCY of God. They keep us from continuing in sin. In complete honesty, there are some sins which I know for a fact I'd still be doing if God hadn't made me deal with the consequences. I quickly learned that reaping and sowing isn't just for non-believers.

[TheFinalWord]

Exactly. I heard a preacher once say, "Because of Jesus, we are spared the eternal consequences of sin, but that does not necessarily mean we are spared the earthy consequences." That makes sense to me.

 

I think about the man I married. I hurt him deeply - HIM. HE was hurt. And yet he has forgiven. And yet people I did not hurt, some I do not even know, who claim to believe God's Word, keep me in that box. I did repent. I did work and am working on living out the changes. I accept the earthly consequences from those I actually hurt.

 

I used to be that way. If a girl got pregnant, her fault and no compassion. When I found out one of my college friends had had an abortion after being raped, I dropped her. When I found out a boy/guy I dated in grad school was not a virgin, I dumped him. Didn't matter that it happened when he was 16 and wild but now he was 23 and godly. If you really loved Jesus you wouldn't do such things. Heck, I burned record albums.

 

Now I see just how desperately I need God's grace. That it is true that if we keep the whole law but stumble at one point, we are guilty of breaking all of it. I was never doing God some favor by giving Him the benefit of wonderful me.

 

Do people just have to fall themselves to understand what forgiveness is? Wait, we HAVE all fallen.

 

You have made some great points. I understand your frustration.

 

When it comes to people, they can hold grudges for a long time. They can also be judgmental and yes you are right, most people do not learn unless they experience a similar set of circumstances. Isn't it interesting that when we mess up, we want forgiveness, but when others mess up we don't want to forgive them?

 

With forgiveness, it can take time. It depends how much trust has been violated. One thing we do have to know is sin has a ripple effect. It does not always just harm the individual we sinned against. For example, if someone drinks and drives. They are harming their own body, but if they decide to drive their sin can harm others. It may not just stop there. The money that is used to pay the ambulance, clean up the damaged property, pay the police officers is often picked up by tax payers. Maybe not the best example, but our intra and interpersonal sins often impact the community and environment. In our capitalist society that glorifies individuality, we often forget we are part of a community. Recognizing that can perhaps help you empathize with why some people are so slow to forgive. Not that they are right to do so necessarily, but just to help you have the patience you may need to cope with their attitude towards you.

 

Some people relish in holding grudges, they may never let it go. With others you may have to have years of patience. For example, if that person has been on the receiving end of a similar action at some point in their life, your actions may bring up bad memories in them and in a way they will in effect punish you as a way to cope with their own pain.

 

All you are responsible for, at the end of the day, is knowing that within yourself, and before God, you have done all you can do to seek forgiveness. If you have tried your best and continue to show mercy, and it will not be reciprocated, there may come a point that you have to move on and stop trying to please these people. Forgiveness is a two-way streak and you have to go forward with your life. You don't want to get stuck into a state of depression due to other people's hard heart.

Edited April 20, 2014 by TheFinalWord

[janedoe67]

God will not be mocked.

 

This struck me.

 

It is true. God is sovereign and all-knowing. God also has the power to do what He will. He doesn't need my help to make sure others "reap."

 

I also agree that GOD'S chastisement through earthly consequences is actually mercy. The Bible even says that the Lord chastens those He loves. There has never been a time that God did not shine a light on any disobedience of mine in HIS time. Every "accident" was His divine intervention. When I was on a trip and went to sleep on the couch because my husband was snoring, leaving my cell phone on the bedside table, and then my alarm went off the next morning, prompting him to turn it off, then accidentally open a social media program where I had exchanged offensive messages....that was not an accident. That was divine appointment shining a light on sin I had tried to conceal.

 

God doesn't need help doing what HE will do. My husband confronted, the truth came tumbling out, my heart broke, and He was able to do His work in His way with His Holy Spirit. It's always been that way. When, in graduate school, I lost a scholarship and tried to hide it by changing my address, the letter from the department, which was mailed by the head, went to my home address instead and my parents opened it. God doesn't need help to be our Father.

 

I have made some selfish, painful, and just plain bad choices in my life. My husband knows, my family knows, my children know. God has forgiven me, and others are in various stages of doing so - something I do not deserve. They are also suffering their own effects, which I will not detail here. What they need is to see their mother/daughter/ etc changing and growing. What they do not need is to get caught in the crossfire of some kind of agenda where someone, cowardly and from the shadows, decides to take over God's job.

 

It is like my signature says. I have sinned against God and against my family. I am NOT worthy to be called His child. But my eternal and earthly consequences are His job, and my family's job, to decide.

[pureinheart]

That is awesome.

 

One thing I'd even add is that earthly consequences for sin are actually a MERCY of God. They keep us from continuing in sin. In complete honesty, there are some sins which I know for a fact I'd still be doing if God hadn't made me deal with the consequences. I quickly learned that reaping and sowing isn't just for non-believers.

 

Nope- correct me if I'm wrong, although God deals with His people first...

[pureinheart]

You have made some great points. I understand your frustration.

 

When it comes to people, they can hold grudges for a long time. They can also be judgmental and yes you are right, most people do not learn unless they experience a similar set of circumstances. Isn't it interesting that when we mess up, we want forgiveness, but when others mess up we don't want to forgive them?

 

With forgiveness, it can take time. It depends how much trust has been violated. One thing we do have to know is sin has a ripple effect. It does not always just harm the individual we sinned against. For example, if someone drinks and drives. They are harming their own body, but if they decide to drive their sin can harm others. It may not just stop there. The money that is used to pay the ambulance, clean up the damaged property, pay the police officers is often picked up by tax payers. Maybe not the best example, but our intra and interpersonal sins often impact the community and environment. In our capitalist society that glorifies individuality, we often forget we are part of a community. Recognizing that can perhaps help you empathize with why some people are so slow to forgive. Not that they are right to do so necessarily, but just to help you have the patience you may need to cope with their attitude towards you.

 

Some people relish in holding grudges, they may never let it go. With others you may have to have years of patience. For example, if that person has been on the receiving end of a similar action at some point in their life, your actions may bring up bad memories in them and in a way they will in effect punish you as a way to cope with their own pain.

All you are responsible for, at the end of the day, is knowing that within yourself, and before God, you have done all you can do to seek forgiveness. If you have tried your best and continue to show mercy, and it will not be reciprocated, there may come a point that you have to move on and stop trying to please these people. Forgiveness is a two-way streak and you have to go forward with your life. You don't want to get stuck into a state of depression due to other people's hard heart.

 

Extremely insightful. I've had this happen more than once, in fact a lot and didn't understand what it was, so in ignorance took the abuse thinking I had done something. It's sad for anyone on any side of this coin to have to endure, or allow it via ignorance.

 

You know TFW, from observation, it appears as if those who do hold longterm grudges tend to be the most judgmental and it's very difficult to have meaningful conversations with them. There also seems to be a lot of sarcasm …not just plain old sarcasm, but sarcasm filled with hate and such in most of their communication.

 

Very wise words concerning the people pleasing thing. It's important to understand that they are in fact hurting, so the best thing is to cut ties and pray for them from a distance. The only thing God expects us to do is to come clean with Him and do what He says to do concerning that particular situation/circumstance.

[pureinheart]

This struck me.

 

It is true. God is sovereign and all-knowing. God also has the power to do what He will. He doesn't need my help to make sure others "reap."

 

 

Oh gf tell the truth. Also would like to add that we don't know the motive behind the motive like God does. Depending on the circumstances, if we really feel like a wrong is taking place, most of the time God will have "me" remain "silent" and have me not do anything (which is usually easier anyway). To the natural mind this doesn't make sense because we all have a need for justice. To be clear, I'm speaking of small offenses.

[TheFinalWord]

The only thing God expects us to do is to come clean with Him and do what He says to do concerning that particular situation/circumstance.

 

Amen!

 

One of my favorite parables of Jesus:

 

And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”“A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.”...Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

[pie2]

Considering the earthly consequence for many sins was death in the early days of the bible, I'd say, as a society, we've possibly become more tolerant and forgiving of certain sins .

 

 

OP, hope you can find tolerance in your heart for others you think are holding on to grudges. Your hubby may have forgiven, but it doesn't mean others are wrong for taking time to build trust again. They don't have a relationship with you like your husband does. You messed up, and it's just going to take time to rebuild bonds. Forcing the issue (i.e. forcing someone to be over it already) doesn't seem, well...the best way to go about it. Just give it time.

Edited April 21, 2014 by pie2