Was this Borderline? I am so lost...

[hindsight2021]

Hey everyone. I have lurked on here the past week and have found this forum incredible helpful. I need some insight from you folks; I believe all of you have had similar experiences in your own way.

 

Let me begin by saying that I am familiar with BPD and its traits, as I've dated a woman diagnosed with it in the past. Extreme splitting, anger outbursts towards me every other day, angry for me loving her, breakup/makeup/repeat, NO love from her (she got mad about taking me to the doctors one day...) etc etc...

 

After her I dated another woman who had very similar traits, but in a different way. She was very sweet (love bombing), but was hollow on the inside, splitting, wanting to break up, I would convince her she was splitting, we would stay together... etc etc. This went on until I found out she was getting involved with someone else.

 

This third and most recent one.... this one has been the hardest I think. Because I have no clarity on it, but knew something was off from the beginning. I would really appreciate any thoughts or insight on it.

 

After the second girl, I lost everything. I left town for about 6 months to be with family. Very depressed. Directionless. Did a lot of healing/suffering/therapy work, just FEELING the ****tiness that was happening and learned so much about co-dependency and myself. Left the country and had an amazing healing experience for myself. Moved back to the town I now live in. Got my old job back. Had an incredible outlook on life.

 

Within a month I met the 3rd girl. I am 31, she was 31. We were together 7 months. I broke up with her 3 1/2 months ago.

 

In the beginning, when I first met her, I immediately had a sense of "there's something off about this one" as soon as I met her. It was in how she looked at me when passing by each other and said "I've been waiting for you". Almost seductively. She meant it in terms of getting a beer for myself at the bar, and she was getting bunch of beers for her and her friends, leaving the bar area and I took her spot. She was a friend of friends. I saw the sign, passed it off as her just saying he was holding a spot of me jokingly. But she looked seductive about it.

 

Within the next month or so, we started dating. She was incredibly fun, funny, I was very attracted to her, she was easy to get along with. All the while I just sensed that something was "off" with her. I passed it off as though I had been through some crazy ****. This was a friend of a friend, afterall, I told myself. Even her father (who I knew for a few years before her) told me "she is a lot of fun, very sensitive, but very caring, etc etc"...

 

She was going to therapy for the past two years after dating a Narcissist (according to her). She talked about other relationships, too. Her most recent one before me ended 3 months prior. She shared how he was an *******, how most guys she dated didn't really put any effort into it. How she is an empath, a caretaker, etc etc. We bonded on the caretaker thing big time, as I have identified this in myself as well. She did say, however, that there were two guys who "gave a whole lot of ****" but one didn't work out because they were both so depressed at the time, and the other didn't work out because he was too clingy and was also an alcoholic (and they got pregnant, and she had an abortion from it, was pissed at him for it). She said she thinks he did it on purpose because he always joked that he would so she had to stay with him forever. Apparently for her this was not a serious relationship, and they never declared each other as a couple. But they were.

 

She and I made a pact in the beginning of "no surprises". We have both been caught off guard and have lost ourselves in relationships before. We didn't want to do that to each other or ourselves again. She seemed to have made mistakes in her past, but have learned from them. She came across as self-aware to me, and still working on it. I respected this.

 

She was incredibly sweet. But within the first month I noticed that she was emotionally unstable. One night she came over and was SO uptight. She didn't yell AT me or anything like other Borderlines I dated (in fact rarely did, only happened a few times) but she always had this emotional unstableness of inner anger that kind of exploded inside her. Or she was really upset and depressed about something from kids she worked with at work (seemingly out of empathy). Or there was no reason at all and she couldn't identify it. There was just this inner anger/instability/something. Again, it was rarely directed AT me, but it was often there off and on. That first night, within the first month, I was very calm, didn't try and "fix" it, as I learned not to do, and she just said she had to go. She left, cried in the car before leaving (I hear this with my windows open) and texts me she is sorry when she gets home. I took it as though she was just struggling with stuff pertaining to therapy, her past, whatever. I rationalized it.

 

As time went on, I took it on. I loved the hell out of her. And she was so appreciative of it. She idolized me, and said she knew that she was and was worried about doing that. Being aware of my own Co-dependent nature, I took this as "someone is showing me they really love me and think highly of me, and rightfully so because I am a really good guy and am really giving her a lot that she always wanted, sexually, intimately, emotionally, socially, etc etc." So, I accepted it. I believed in it. Although in the back of my mind I thought all the sweet gestures towards me, and the infatuation, I thought "love bombing....". I told myself it was just the honeymoon phase. Let it happen, don't shoot it down, let yourself be loved by this woman.

 

I ended up supporting her so much throughout the relationship. She took things to her therapist that I said. She made progress based off of insights I gave her. And she was SO appreciative of it.

 

After about 3 months, she mentioned how she had slept around a few times in college. I figured "no big deal, everyone does that" (even though I haven't). But, I was upset because of our agreement we had in the beginning of "no surprises". I then learned it wasn't just back in college from "when she was depressed and lonely, looking for approval outside of herself, etc etc" (which I believed, and saw as her understanding her reasons for doing the things she did, and I took this as a good sign). Within the past 1 1/2 year she had two relationships that weren't "serious", just basically having sex and spending time together/having fun, and hooked up with one guy for a one night stand... went home with him and his friend from the bar wasted, blew lines of Molly (exctasy) with the one guy and had sex and cuddled naked being intimate and sharing stories for the rest of the night.

 

This really pissed me off because it was not only a breach of our agreement, but also more signs to me that "this girl has issues I should be very cautious of". It had only happened within the past 1 1/2... not almost 10 years ago in college.

 

This is when I started loosing my patience with her and being an ******* at random. It only happened a handful (4-5 times) where I would just go off on her, but I was very resentful towards her for this. But I gave her the benefit of the doubt and kept supporting her, and we kept adoring each other.

 

I always felt like I only had an inch to move emotionally in her presence. I couldn't be upset. With her or with anything else. It didn't matter to what degree. Mildest of mild to the rare times of going bananas.

 

Another sign that I'm not so sure of as being Borderline or not, is that anytime I tried to talk to her about something, she was get really stressed out. Like, normal "couples have a talk" stuff. Like, concerns I was having. One of them was because we were out drinking, the night she met my friends, and I saw her kind of just "check out" subconsciously and do things that made me scratch my head (like run her fingers through my friends hair she had just met). Actually, this was one of the first "couples talks" we had, and it resulted in good things. I talked to her about "boundary issues" and where they might come from, and she looked into this with her therapist and really appreciated me showing her this. She also started looking into abuse from her past sexually/physically, and began to loosely identify some events, but never fully got there.

 

She was supportive though, but it felt like it was when it was good for her to be so. Sometimes she was supportive when it DIDN'T seem fitting for her (as time went on and she worked on herself). But, this was MOSTLY supportive by sexually doing things for me/with me that would take my mind off of it.... not supportive in terms of being emotionally present with me in taking about stuff. Or supportive in little ways such as "you can do anything!" and "you're so amazing, so good at your job, so good at this so good at that". Cheerleading in a way.

 

I also expressed how I felt like I was always taking care of her emotionally and "handling her emotions" and that I was concerned about it, and also felt like my emotional needs "such as talking with one another" weren't being met. I felt that I was being assertive. Over time, my assertiveness was seen as criticism by her, and I really don't know if was being critical or not, or if I was just being assertive and doing the right thing from a co-dependency point of view. I use any time that I got really upset with her (only a few times) as justification for internally reinforcing to myself that I was being critical. Sometimes, I was critical, but only after trying to talk to her about something/tell her how I felt about something.

 

But, things were still good between us. And I kept being assertive about my needs. Sometimes she would talk to me about her perspective of me through what I described as seeing me through a "negative lens" to me. Such as telling me I was being critical, when I felt I was just being assertive.

 

I still don't know if I was being critical or assertive. Or if this was gaslighting on her part. Or what.

 

One night (she worked at a bar over the summers down the street from where I live) while she was working, she said she was on her way to my apt. She didn't come for an hour. Wasn't responding to my calls/texts after that hour. This was another "checking out" experience where she "just lost track of time". There was a band playing there and she was supporting an 18 yr old who was really awkward that worked there who wanted to play with the band. I don't know why she just didn't invite me down.

 

Months later I found out that one of her co-workers was interested in her and he was also there that night, and asked for her number. Which she did not tell me upfront that night. I was extremely upset with her for neglecting to tell me she was staying there when she said she was on her way to my place. At 12am. Which is concerning in itself. She said she didn't tell me about him because I was already so upset. Why she would go up and talk to him is beyond me when she already knew he was interested in her and she had told him she was dating someone.

 

She admitted to how wrong all of it was. I don't know.

 

Still, she showed a tremendous amount of adoration for me. She gave me pretty much anything I wanted sexually, whenever I wanted it. I would do the same for her. Emotionally I gave her a lot of support. My emotional needs were unmet and I continued to be assertive about them. Eventually I became less assertive because of how much it stressed her out.

 

She told me how hard it was for her to text me throughout the day when I first asked her to do that, just to have a sense of connection together. I told her it didn't have to be constant. Just once or twice. No big deal. She took it as "you get so upset with me if I don't text you". Not the case. It was as though she was talking about someone else/talking to someone else instead of me when talking to me. Her justification was when I was upset with her about something unrelated to simply just texting, and we were sorting it out via text while both working.... (bad idea in the first place, but my anxiety got triggered big time).

 

This "negative lens" happened on a number of occasions. This is the "negative lens" I spoke of before. Its like she was attempting to gaslight and/or splitting me. But i kept that boundary there and didn't let it happen.

 

But she was so SWEET to me, too.

 

I had caught her in small silly lies throughout the relationship. In fact, I felt like I was being lied to often. Things like "I've only had straight vanilla sex until you"... but she dated a narcissist for 3 years and they lived together, had many one night stands (originally she told me she slept with 50 people, then it was 25-30). I just couldn't believe that she never did anything kinky or out of the ordinary with any one of these men, but with me the sex was really wild and awesome and we pretty much were both open to trying anything.

 

I doubted my own perceptions of being lied to. Things like "you're the best I've ever had". I believed that, because she was challenging to "get off", and after studying her body and reactions figured out exactly what I needed to do psychologically and physically to get her off regularly. That took some time and effort and a lot of attention. I don't think most guys would take the time to do that. Maybe they would, maybe some didn't have to, I don't know. It become a sense of self doubt for me either way. She claimed she never had an orgasm with anyone until the narcissist, and it was only 3-4 of them and it took a lot of time for them to happen. One other one with one of the guys "who gave a whole lot of ****" but that was it. With me she claimed every aspect of the relationship was "the best ever".

 

Maybe this was BPD stuff. Maybe it was true. I don't know. I've experienced BPD before in very extreme ways.... so I think that some of her claims about me in many aspects (positively) were genuine. However, I do think that the idolizing/adoring was BPD related. Because if she saw one negative thing about it, it really stuck out to her and she would hold on to it and use it as justification.

 

She had a group of guy friends that I didn't find out about until a couple of months in. After hearing about how she doesn't have any friends except for one. And how much she valued my company because of it.

 

She did claim to be working so hard in therapy on things, too. I believed her. She was making progress for sure. I saw it in her actions. Slowly but surely.

 

Sure enough.... at the end of the relationship... I couldn't handle feeling like a lie was still sitting in the middle of everything between us. I couldn't. I asked her to please just tell me whatever it was she was keeping from me so we can just move past it and move on. "Nothing.". I knew there was something. "Nothing." Over and over. Just like before.

 

I held my ground and eventually she finally came out with it all. The guy at the bar asking for her number. She had a threesome with two men in college. When 23 went back to a hotel with a coke dealer and did coke and had sex with him for the night (he ended up in jail). She cheated on her narcissistic ex.... whom she had told me cheated on her more than a couple of times and made him out to be an abuser and her a victim/caretaker for him during our entire relationship together. Not only did she cheat on him "because he was cheating on her" but she did it while wasted, in the middle of her friends living room, high on cocaine, on her period, anal. And said he felt so ashamed and hugged the guy goodbye in the morning and never saw him again (I believed her). The next day she comes to me and tells me she couldn't sleep because of the guilt she felt lying to me again. She actually got his number the next day, and then went back to him immediately after her and the Narc-ex broke up and hooked up with him again... and THAT was the last time she saw him. She told me the anal with him the first night was awesome (after telling me how crappy it was and how she felt). She also told me most of the sex she had in per past was unprotected (I wasn't happy about that for obvious reasons). She also told me about hooking up with men in their late 30s while she was in her early 20s in college. Many things came out that were far beyond "just hooking up in college a few times".

 

I was furious. I felt for 7 months that I was being led on to believe things about her that weren't true at all. While dealing with her small "checking out" episodes, inability to have an honest and open conversation with me without her getting stressed out, dealing with her "negative lens", dealing with my own paranoia of being cheated on in my past multiple times by different people (and second guessing myself because of it), questioning myself, and taking care of her emotional needs while not having mine met.

 

Mind you, I tried talking to her about her past before a few times, and after a while she started telling me that she thought I should go to a therapist because I was experiencing "retroactive jealousy". She also asked me to see a therapist because if I needed something, like support emotionally, or if I was stressed and just wanted to lay my head on her and be loved, she felt that should be worked through with a therapist and everything should "always be on her". It wasn't always on her. It was always on me; I was always taking care of her in all respects while loosing my cool a few times (which she would always go back to as "proof" that I needed help). And she was right, I did berate her a couple of times. But its not who I am. And in either case, loving each other and being there for each other emotionally is what couples do for each other, right?

 

Anyway, finding out about this stuff... I exploded. I literally went crazy. I acted like a Borderline. She silently followed me around the streets while I screamed and yelled like a maniac. I slut shamed her in front of strangers. I ended up on the side of a freeway exit ramp grass area screaming like a lunatic, asking her if she wants me to kill myself or be honest with me. She told me more things in response to this after telling me "theres nothing else" over and over again after finding out about "something else". I recognize this was messed up on my part. But she triggered me in a really really bad way. And I needed to know the truth (I told her in the beginning lying to me is a major trigger of mine because of my own past, and the best thing she can do if she does it is tell me the truth asap, and if it happens will really screw a lot up between us).

 

That night I broke up with her. She cried and begged to work through it. I couldn't. There was just too many signs for me to feel safe doing so, all the while not having my emotional needs met and also the dishonesty about stupid little things (and apparently some really unfortunate things from her past). We had sex one last time. She layed on me until 4am and went home. She said, as she always had, that I had everything she ever wanted in a person.

 

This lying to me "there's nothing else" to telling me something else went on for 4 days.

 

Two days went by and I cooled off. I valued the good in her and what we had together. I contacted her and told her I am willing to work on it.

 

That is when things got weird.

 

Two days later, and she told me she wasn't comfortable with that, after begging me to work on it and saying she wanted to. Crying about it. Saying I was everything she ever wanted. Saying she ****ed it all up.

 

Suddenly it was "your behavior was abnormal and scary" and "honestly I am scared of you" and "I forgive you, but I can't let if go" and "anytime you were upset with me, including that night, some people would call that verbal abuse". "I think we should work on ourselves separately, but it is my hope that we can do this and keep in touch and some day get back together.". It went from that, to "I think we shouldn't be looking at this as a break". To "I don't think we should talk anymore, I wish you the best and truly believe this is for the best.". The breakup went on for 6 weeks. Texting, not seeing each other. Talked on the phone twice. During these 6 weeks she told me what she did was wrong, and "she's sure she has more to say about the lying part"--but never did, just left me hanging about it. She also told me I was above and beyond good enough and the best she ever had in every imaginable way, and that I am a really important person to her and learned so much through me, and that she'll never forget it.

 

After the "I have to cease contact with you, given that this is over" text, I went NC. 4 weeks later I saw her while I was out. Given that things seemed amicable between us, and that she seemed like she was having a hard time/it was a loss for her as well and "we" just needed to work on things as individuals, I figured it couldn't hurt to just go up and say hello. So I did. And I felt good doing it. And I saw sadness in her eyes in seeing me. I saw that she missed me. She even said "I wasn't expecting to see you". She was caught off guard. And although that was not my intention to "catch her off guard", it was good to have my instincts validated by her reaction. She was very brief though, and ended the convo by walking away kind of giving me a look like "whats your problem" or as though I did something wrong. I even asked "is it a problem I came over to say hello?" and she said no. She was very awkward. A song made by two of our (individually) favored artists was on the stereo system about giving love one more chance. It was kind of coincidental and odd.

 

The very next night I saw her again while out. She was alone, I went up to say hey again and sat down, again, being amicable. She was obviously very uncomfortable with that "tenseness" again about her. She said she didn't feel like it was a good idea to be talking together as "it had not been that long since we broke up" (it had been 3 months) and "we just saw each other yesterday and are now hanging out". I told her I'm just saying hey again and being amicable. Asked again if it was a problem if I came over to do so. She said no. Said I can sit here but didn't think we should talk. Confusing. I said "if you want me to leave you alone, tell me to leave you alone." She stuttered a bit back and forth between "yes no yes no" to "leave me alone". So I laughed and smiled at her, looked into her eyes and said okay, and said it was good to see you. She looked into mine and said the same. We both wished each other well and for each of us to be doing well.

 

We were both seeing a band that each of us had a friend in.

 

She saw I was friends with the one guy.

 

Ends up drinking with, seemingly having a really good time with, and leaving with that guy.

 

"Too soon to be talking to each other?"

 

I go to the next bar over, and she is there with him. He didn't know we used to date. She knew I was downtown to go to that bar in the first place. I had told her this.

 

Friend calls me over. Awkward. Here I am talking to the two of them, knowing she has feelings for me and is avoiding them out of her own shame of her contribution to the demise of our relationship. She is still avoiding communication with me even though I am now in a 3 way conversation. If she owned up to it, we could reconcile. She gave me a sign of disrespect, and my mind said "*** this". I turned to my friend immediately and said "we used to date. we just broke up and she isn't over me yet, and is using you to get under my skin because she showed me vulnerability and didn't see vulnerability in me". I don't know if she heard this or not, but it made my friend really awkward. I told him to just watch her and make his own judgements. She got up and started dancing around with anyone she could (she was drunk, i was sober). Kept looking at me while doing so. He eventually left saying "I'm out of here, yeah... I'm out of here". I confronted her and said "Why are you trying to hook up with my friend, he says you're being really flirty with him, etc etc". She immediately got defensive saying she wasn't trying to hook up with anyone (all the while of having an incredibly guilty look on her face). She walked around me and was not avoiding him as well. Went up to another mutual friend of ours (guy in his 50s.). I went up to her and said "things don't have to be weird, we both loved each other a lot and a mistake was made on both of our parts. Even if we aren't together that doesn't mean we can't amicable towards each other in public". At that point the 50ish yr old friend yelled BACK OFF to me. I asked "what?". He said BACK OFF, SHES OBVIOUSLY VERY UNCOMFORTABLE. So I went up to him and said she is trying to provoke me. Just observe her and tell me what you think. While she dances with the bouncer flirting with him pointing at me and looking at me (she was looking at me throughout the night prior to this while talking to different guys and while flirting with my friend). As she walks away the bouncer shakes his head looking at her saying "wtf?" under his breath. At the previous venue she was SCORNING at me from across the room while surrounded by guys, when I talked to a girl about her camera (I was shooting photos as well at the venue). This was at the previous venue, and prior to her attaching herself to my friend.

 

My friend is interested in her, they might be dating now. A mutual friend said he was asking him about her. Who knows. He has a kid and the kids mom is a woman with scars up and down her arms (so I can only imagine his history). However I have also heard he was a real ******* to this woman. Who knows. He did show me a text that night of a girl texting him that was "his friend" he knew for a long time. Someone he was ignoring and was upset that he was ignoring her. I don't know.

 

The 50 yr old friend, after observing her, goes "You may have a point man..." He then told me that she had said to him that I was following her and that is why he reacted to me the way he did.

 

I'm just blown away by it all really. And am really confused. She was so sweet to me, and seemed like she genuinely wanted to heal for herself (and for me/the relationship) and was sooooo grateful for me. She seemed like she was genuinely trying. I feel like the relationship was split to all black (i.e. the relationships was unhealthy we should work on ourselves) to me being split to all black (i.e. he's following me).

 

She went from looking like she was about to cry the night prior, to that behavior the second night I saw her.

 

At the end of that night, she left and came back in looking for something. I saw a hoodie under the stool I was sitting on. It was hers. I picked it up to hand to her. The 50 year old took it from me to hand do her. She looked right at met standing right in front of me with scorn and anger before walking out the door. All I did in response was open my arms up to her. She walked out.

 

She used to say things to me while dating like "I lied because you'd get mad at me" pertaining to little things.... before I ever got mad at her for anything.

 

She hit me in the face once. And hit her ex before me and the Narc-ex.

 

Told me I didn't validate her feelings when she would tell me things like "I feel like you need to go to therapy for abc".

 

Yet we still had in depth conversations about psychology, etc. It felt like we connected on many different levels. The other two relationships I've mentioned it wasn't like this at all. There was no connection.

 

I'm friends with her dad. And he is my landlord. He doesn't want me to leave but it is hard to be here. She doesn't come over/hasn't been over since we broke up.

 

I feel like I did something wrong by freaking out and breaking up with her. And feel like I lost something. We got involved RIGHT after I moved back here, which I think has to do with how I'm feeling.

 

I KNOW I was a really big deal to her. At the same time I doubt it because of the possible BPD stuff. Maybe they were just traits on the spectrum, not full blown like the others. I don't know.

 

Thoughts on all of this? I know it is a long story. There's so much more, too. I would have run from this if she wasn't getting help and working on herself.

 

I want to say BPD. I feel like it was there and after 3 1/2 months and just starting to maybe see it? But either she had worked on it consciously or unconsciously and was getting better with it while with me, or I just kept better boundaries in this relationship by not taking responsibility for everything. Which I am now doing.... all the while feeling like I did something wrong and feeling hurt by her actions.

 

Worst of all, I went from feeling on top of the world for the first time in my life, victorious, to feeling completely broken and lost in myself again, feeling totally independent loving myself and very confident about myself. And now I am afraid to go anywhere because running into her will make me feel really anxious and depressed, I wouldn't be able to hand seeing her with someone else (or in general), and we like going to the same places (and I like that band, and they play for free regularly), whereas before this interaction a couple of weeks ago I would not have felt the way I do now about this.

 

She was working on herself in therapy, and she was getting better it seemed (the internal anger that she DIDN'T take out on me but was very present and disturbing to see, inability to talk about anything without stress, the small white lies, etc). She would also tell me, however, that she would spend so much time reading about things at home to work on herself and "be better for me/the relationship". Whenever I expressed enthusiasm and excitement over this saying "awesome, what have you read/figured out!? bring it over sometime!" she never would share anything she read about or figured out, or bring anything over.

 

I am open to hearing your thoughts about my own behavior as well. My head is really spun over this one. I have dated a for sure diagnosed Borderline before, possibly a second. The first one was obvious to me. The second one it took me learning about co-dependency in myself to see her personality disordered behavior. This third one is really hard for me to place the pieces. She was sweet. Giving. Worked on her self. Seemingly self-aware. The sex was great (as it was with the first of these three). I genuinely loved this girl. It wasn't sole a matter of "loving to be needed". And I genuinely believe she loved me too. Her dad even said to me that she told him "It was the best ever for her, but it was such a turbulent up and down relationship". Which it was. She told me I had mood swings and felt like she was walking on eggshells because sometimes I lost my patience and would just go off on her. Which was wrong of me.

 

I think she'll end up realizing what she had. Doesn't mean she'll come back, but I think she'll end up realizing what she had/what we had. I feel like I really did blow her mind in a lot of ways. Coupled with the fact that she didn't claim that ALL her ex-boyfriends were *******s, that two of them were really nice, and a few of her one night stands were also really nice, I can only imagine that eventually I will be one of those "good" ex's some day. But with a whole lot more stuff to it than the others. Not just "good stuff". But "bad stuff" without it carrying into the rest of the relationship. Wild but calm. Attentive but firm. Reliable but exciting to be around/spontaneous. Insightful but letting her figure things out on her own. You get the idea.

 

Unless her shame is now compounded into herself in a way where I am also compounded with it. She came out and told me a lot of really shameful things. I have to commend her for that. And I lost my sh*t. Considering the circumstance.... I think most people would have? I'm not perfect and a strong and compassionate guy, but I'm not a miracle. And I think my reaction to things she is incredibly ashamed of that she shared with me that she doesn't even admit to HERSELF or her therapist.... created a really crappy situation. Everything she ever wanted, but now having to face all her inner shame in order to have the humility to see how she wronged herself, and our relationship, and me. And I just don't see it happening. And it really, really, really sucks. I think we were really special on all accounts and levels. I know somewhere in that head of hers, she does too.

 

Maybe I am wrong about some things, right about others. I don't know. Thank you in advance. For the record, yes I am seeing a therapist about this but with very slow progress.

[266696687]

I think before you start labeling her and all your previous relationships you need to take a good look at yourself and your expectations during a relationship.

 

Firstly you did follow her to the second bar. There was no reason for you to keep going over to her knowing that you was making her uncomfortable. She even outright told you that she thought it was too soon. You approached her more than once and on more than one occasion despite knowing she was uncomfortable. Not very gentlemanly and if you had her best interests at heart (rather than your own agenda) you wouldn't have done it again after the first encounter. It sounds to me like you created a lot of the situation that was caused by repeatedly approaching her under the guise of being amicable when that was clearly not your intention.

 

I think your expectation on her of 'no surprises' so early on and then trying to hold things over her once you discovered new things when you hadn't even known each other that long caused a lot of the problems. It takes time to get to know someone and new disocoveries particularly early on is something that you should expect. People don't disclose all their history after just a few months of dating. Your expectations here are skewed not only that but it sounds like you caused many arguments over it.

 

I'm not saying it was all your fault by any means but when trying to understand what happened you should always inspect your own behavior first and yours in this case leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited March 19, 2017 by 266696687

[hindsight2021]

Hey 266696687, thank you for your reply.

 

I did not follow her to the second bar. I didn't know she was heading there. All I know is that she left with my friend. I hung out for a while at the 1st one before leaving for the 2nd, which was the one I originally intended to go to (and had told her I was heading to eventually).

 

My needs in a relationship are clear communication, honesty, and openness. And I was upfront about that in the beginning. I don't feel as though these are unrealistic or unhealthy.

 

The "no surprises" early on wasn't an expectation of mine. It was an agreement that we both made together due to what we both had been through in our past relationships. It may have even been her who said it.

 

The first of the three woman I talked about was professionally diagnosed with BPD after urging her to go get professional help. Not me labeling her. The second, it was suggested by my therapist after months of intense therapy.

 

Once this most recent girl told me she felt it was too soon to talk, my intention was to leave her alone. When my friend, who she attached herself to that night called me over, I went over. I was not talking to her, I was talking to him, but she was right there. It was awkward. So I asked an awkward question about her work and she responded in a way that I felt was passive aggressive. You are right, I approached her after this. I felt provoked emotionally as the night went on, right or wrong. And this was externally verified by the 50ish year old guy who yelled at me. Which says something to me, does it not to you?

 

She also had told me weeks prior she wanted to work on things individually and keep in contact now and then, and also told me that getting back together in the future was possible.

 

I have also had two therapists tell me back to back that it sounds like this most recent one has BPD. I didn't want to believe that, which is why I left each of those therapists to try another one. The newest one has not done this yet and is taking things slower.

 

So, I'm not trying to label anyone. I'm asking for other people's thoughts here on this situation.

 

The first encounter the first night, I asked her if it was a problem that I came over to say hey. She said it was not. She did not tell me it was a problem. So when I saw her again the next night, I felt that it was okay to say hey again while walking past her to use the bathrooms. This was prior to being told she felt it was too soon to talk. Otherwise I would not have initiated conversation.

 

I appreciate your feedback, but I feel as though some things may have been misunderstood in what I wrote. I don't feel as though I was holding anything over her or expecting anything of her throughout the relationship. Aside from honesty. And I think expecting honesty from someone in a relationship isn't unhealthy to do. She and I made an agreement together. Key word is together. She didn't uphold her end of it. There were more lies besides just her past. I was using that as an example.

 

I also learned while in intense therapy after my last relationship to see early red flags, and I felt like I was seeing them in this most recent relationship. Including the intense emotional ups and downs she had, the internal anger, hitting me, being very flirty and seductive and pushing for things to move quickly, a more promiscuous history than any I've ever had shared with me while for the entire relationship being told that she never enjoyed sex ever before, being flirty with other people and rationalizing it, her inability to have a simple "relationship conversation" without getting really stressed out right away, me very quickly becoming a caregiver and in some cases beyond what was healthy, among many other things.

 

What do you believe that I was holding over her throughout the relationship? I really would like to know what you think it was and why you think that. I'm trying to better myself though this, too.

 

What do you think my intention was in talking to her if it was not to be amicable?

 

Any thoughts on the rest of all this?

 

I've been inspecting my own behavior. I believe I've been doing that beyond what is healthy.

Edited March 19, 2017 by hindsight2021

[Downtown]

I have also had two therapists tell me back to back that it sounds like this most recent one has BPD.

HindSight, perhaps the two therapists' suspicions are correct about your exGF having full-blown BPD. Anything is possible. As you already know, BPD is not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list.

 

I was seeing [red flags].... including the intense emotional ups and downs she had, the internal anger, hitting me, being very flirty and seductive and pushing for things to move quickly, a more promiscuous history than any I've ever had shared with me while for the entire relationship being told that she never enjoyed sex ever before, being flirty with other people and rationalizing it, her inability to have a simple "relationship conversation" without getting really stressed out right away, me very quickly becoming a caregiver and in some cases beyond what was healthy, among many other things.

HindSight, it is common for even healthy people to occasionally get temporary flareups of their BPD traits, as you apparently did when your exGF told you about her promiscuous past activities. You acknowledge that you "acted like a Borderline" and "went crazy." Similarly, a healthy woman sometimes will exhibit a flareup of BPD traits after her partner has just dumped her, "screamed and yelled like a maniac," and "slut shamed her in front of strangers."

 

At issue, then, is not how your exGF behaved following your breakup but, rather, how she behaved before that. If you're interested, you may want to take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

I caution that not all warning signs (i.e., behavioral symptoms) are equal. Some are more important than others. The great abandonment fear, for example, is a central feature of BPD. IME, it is an essential feature. It likely would be manifested in the form of irrational jealousy and very controlling behavior intended to keep you away from other women (and perhaps even to isolate you away from family members). BPDers typically see abandonment threats in harmless activities and comments that really pose no real threat. I mention this because you do not give any examples of her exhibiting strong irrational jealousy. The only person you seem to describe as jealous is yourself.

 

Another essential feature is emotional instability which arises from the inability to regulate one's own emotions. Granted, you do say she had "intense emotional ups and downs." But it is unclear whether her moods swing between depression and mild mania (as would occur in Bipolar-2) or between adoring you and devaluing you (as would occur in BPD). Also unclear is whether her "hitting you" in the face means that she punched you or gave you a light slap.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Although you can spot strong warning signs when they appear, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Downtown

[anika99]

I don't know if your ex is BPD but in my experience every person I have met who is a self declared "empath" also happens to be a bit of a whack job. Having been in a long term relationship with a BPD man myself I can certainly see why you had some concerns. My ex also couldn't meet any of my emotional needs. He could spend hours giving me long lectures about how I wasn't meeting his needs or expectations but the second I asked him to consider a need of mine he would come unglued, saying I was being demanding, controlling, critical. He would project his own behaviour onto me, telling me to lower my voice and stop screaming at him but he was the one screaming while I was was just sitting there speechless at how crazy it all was.

 

Now all that being said, I'm not sure this woman is your problem. What is this need you have to know every past sexual experience of your gf right down to the minute details? That is weird to me. I would never grill a man on all his sexual experiences before me. At my age it goes without saying that I and any man I might date have had many sexual experiences, some wonderful and some not so wonderful. I don't need to know the details of my bfs past sex life. He can tell me if and when he feels like it and if he never feels like it then it's none of damn business and vice versa. Honestly it sounds like you interrogated your ex, wanting to know every encounter and every detail, right down to how much she liked it and what she felt.

 

Same goes with your recent run in with her. You broke up with her so she owes you nothing, not even casual friendship. You were way out of line in talking about her the way you did. You broke up with her, she can drink and dance with whomever she pleases and you need to mind your business. She isn't any of your business. She is obviously uncomfortable around you and would rather you not be in her life so you need to respect that and leave her be.

 

Lastly, your therapy is for you. Your therapist has no business diagnosing BPD in a person he has never met and he should be encouraging you to focus on yourself rather then discussing your ex in detail with you.

[hindsight2021]

Hey Downtown,

 

I appreciate your feedback about not only my ex but also me.

 

In terms of jealousy, I wasn't jealous towards her interacting with other people, but insecure about her unknown past that she hinted at over time while, but not being direct about it (which included some very risky behavior, and a lot of it) and feeling like she was telling me lies as well regarding things that had to do with our sex life and what she is "used to". It was mostly the lies that caused the insecurity. If she had been straightforward with me it would have been different. I am generally not insecure in this realm of life unless lies are involved.

 

A few nights she got wasted and looked at my Facebook posts from years ago. And got upset once because she found no evidence of me saying another woman was attractive except for a female bass player from the 70s-80s. This post was from 7 years ago. She drank herself into a stupor over it. The next day she told me about it and was still upset about it saying how I lied to her about not being a womanizer/objectifier of women.

 

In terms of the emotional ups and downs/emotional intensity, it was there consistently throughout the relationship. Mostly in the form of having a very hard time regulating her emotions. It was as though she was constantly exploding inside herself. But she did a good job at not directing at other people or me. But it was very present and was still let out. It was sort of like a temper tantrum, I suppose. But.... "muted". Sometimes (a few times) when she was drunk, it was directed at me.

 

She mostly just adored me. She didn't devalue fully until after the breakup (took 7 months worth of relationship). But, I feel like I saw signs of attempting to devalue throughout the relationship, but I didn't "take the bait" so to speak. From a codependency perspective, I felt like I wasn't taking responsibility for her emotions as she would try and blame them on me, or tell me I was stressing her out because I wanted to talk. I simply stayed calm and told her "I understand you feel that way, but this/that is not on me". In past relationships, I would have felt guilty for this.

 

In terms of hitting me, it was an open handed wind up from behind her swing to my face repeatedly (2-3 times). It was after I calmly asked her to leave because she was acting very irrational and being loud in my apartment causing a scene. She said "make me". I opened the door for her anskednd asked her to please leave. "Make me". So while holding the door open I put my hands on her shoulders to nudge her out the door. It was a gentle nudging out. That was all. As soon all my hands were on her shoulders she started swinging. Justified it by saying "I should know that was due to her past all snd what she's been through". Never genuinely apologized for it or seemed to feel any guilt about it.

 

I feel like I see many of the "signs" for BPD. But compared to the "full blown" BPD ex I dated, it seemed "muted" overall.

 

In any case, I am, and have been throughout the relationship, questioning myself and my observations. Which is making me feel completely crazy even 3 1/2 months after breaking up.

[hindsight2021]

Hi anika,

 

Thank you for your feedback.

 

I agree with you, no need to know about her sexual past down to minute details. What caused me to want to know about it was because she had lied about it when we shared this part of ourselves with each other. That and in my previous therapy experience, I was directed to be very careful of women with openly flirty character coupled with a very promiscuous past, and who lied about it. This wasn't your standard hookup history. This was a lot of sex with a lot of random people and drugs as well, while telling me "it was normal vanilla stuff". Also, seeing how she would "check out" when drinking and not be in control of herself was also very concerning. That is what bothered me and why.

 

I appreciate your honesty, and will look into why I felt the way I did beyond the above reasons.