He says he has changed but.....

[Chloecat]

Hi....been married 22 years. Husband used to be abusive. I was never scared of him, he was an ******* basically. He would fly off the handle about anything.

 

 

My daughter had poor relationship with him.

 

 

Son got on with him through their mutual love of football.

 

 

Anyway...cut a long story short....I split up with him...but he was totally repentant and owning his failures, seemed genuine and he was determined to change.

 

 

However...caught him out...couple of times being spiteful to his 18 year old daughter...she had had depression previously and I was worried about her mental health. When I caught him being spiteful I challenge him and we separated for a while.

 

 

Cut to now....he has been very good....apart from slagging all my family off and calling my elderly father EVIL because he wont help out with some thing in the house.

 

 

My son lives with his dads parents as he is at College in the town there and on the football team doing really well.

 

 

Son texted me on Friday.....I was having lovely time out with daughter.....

 

 

"Dad being a total bastard. Asked me to get some chips at the football game....but they didn't sell Chips so I got him a Snickers bar instead...he went mental...said he wanted water....going on and on...so I walked out...."

 

 

I offered to go get him, bring him home...he refused saying he had football practice on the Monday....

 

 

Further texts....calling his dad Controlling.....son is so laid back and NOT like him at all to get wound up this way.

 

 

Cant ask hubby...by text.....son will only be told not to bother me....and then son will not be able to text me at all.

 

 

Eventually....Son sends me text

 

 

"Actually, dad being total **** head....come and get me....he is squaring up to me, telling me I have a problem..."

 

 

so off I go....I know my husband has left his parents house....where he too stays in the week (when he is working0 and I go get my son and bring him home. Son seems affected and I am concerned. Really concerned.

 

 

When I text my H later that night to tell him I took Son home....he is not happy. Tells me I had no right.

 

 

I tell him, his son has his own mind.

 

 

Daughter doesn't want to talk about it. "you know what I think mum"

 

 

Husband is coming home on Tuesday.....and he will be here for 4 days...then he will go back to his parents house....with our son....and I suspect he will get told off for bothering me.

 

 

I just don't know what to do. My son is tall and strong. But he is sensitive and this is an important year for him.

 

 

Is my husband now lashing out on our Son?

 

 

He used to slap me....and kick me....years ago....he used to tell me to F off....tell me he hated me....and yes he has now changed....but the ghosts of the past come back to haunt me...when I hear how he has been behaving with my son behind my back.

 

 

Hope I can trust him.

 

 

just need some advice. Cant tell anyone....I feel such a loser.

[StellaGrace]

Your husband needs counseling for his anger issues. Something deep-seated is at work there and he clearly doesn't have the tools to understand or deal with it.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't let him back in until he has committed to long-term counseling and is several months in with a concrete plan on what he will do differently when he feels out of control (and you trust this). This isn't good for your kids, or you for that matter, but they need to see someone they trust be strong and stand up for them or there's a good chance the cycle will repeat itself with them.

[Downtown]

Chloe, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking (e.g., regarding your Dad as "Evil"), rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD but, rather, that he might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

 

He used to slap me....and kick me....years ago...

If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in less than a minute -- oftentimes in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

 

I suggest you take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read the more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid repeating a painful experience -- e.g., help you decide whether the children are at sufficient risk to warrant your spending money on seeking a professional opinion -- and help you avoid running into the arms of another man just like the one you left. Take care, Chloe.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Downtown

[Chloecat]

Thanks

 

 

I have truly had enough of it all. My kids are not kids now...son is almost 18. He is sociable, funny, kind.....he went to get the damn chips for his dad....its not his fault that they didn't sell them. I told my son...next time...learn...don't get any thing for him...tell him to get his own friggin chips.

 

 

H just demonises my dad. Of course my dad is not perfect and he has been at fault in certain things. But he is 76 and my dad and it hurts to hear him being demonised.

 

 

I will look at that list right now. Thank you so much.

 

 

I cant leave him. I left him before.....and he was crying and he had problems with his diabetes....ended up having eye surgery.

 

 

His parents are elderly and so kind. I don't want them affected. But, I am so concerned about my son and whats going on when I am not around.

 

 

Course my son will have to stick up for himself. He told me he felt like punching his dad in the face. His dad was going on and on.

 

 

I feel so tired. I see my Sister and her family.....the kids going off to university.....she has this lovely marriage and I have really f.....ked up.

[Chloecat]

Chloe, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, controlling behavior, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking (e.g., regarding your Dad as "Evil"), rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD but, rather, that he might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it or another PD.

 

If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in less than a minute -- oftentimes in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

 

I suggest you take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read the more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid repeating a painful experience -- e.g., help you decide whether the children are at sufficient risk to warrant your spending money on seeking a professional opinion -- and help you avoid running into the arms of another man just like the one you left. Take care, Chloe.

 

 

 

THE NEWS IS......H has 16 out of 18 of those characteristics. Shi&

[Chloecat]

OK So H has BPD

 

 

Game over then.

 

 

SH£T

[Chloecat]

Feel quite panicky now. How do I live with this BPD? Can he grow up?

 

 

I cannot leave him. He has health issues.

 

 

When he is with me...he is trying to be helpful...bringing me coffee....offering to wash up....being complementary....but he still has those same characteristics.....and he is such a black and white thinker.

 

 

I have health problems too. I went in an ambulance last week....my daughter called one because I had some worrying symproms. I am ok at the moment. But, I just feel trapped. That's why I found it so hard leaving him before!!!! It all makes sense now. Leaving him....like leaving....abandoning a lost child. But I should have just done it. My softness is my undoing.

[bathtub-row]

Abusers don't change. Why would they? They love who they are. My ex once went ballistic over how I sliced the butter. Don't get hung up on the details and try to figure out why your H did what he did. He's a nut-case. End of story. It really isn't any deeper than that.

 

Your H is now abusing you through the kids. If you can, get your son out of that house, and away from the close proximity with his dad. Also, tell your H not to bother coming back on Tuesday, and make other plans for your son. The best thing you can do at this point is stop discussing your H's insane behavior with him and disengage from him completely. Just because he isn't hitting you doesn't mean he's no longer abusive.

[Downtown]

OK So H has BPD.

No, Chloe, you don't know he has full-blown BPD. What you are able to determine is whether he exhibits a strong pattern of BPD warning signs. For purposes of deciding whether you want to stay married to him, it really does not matter if his traits satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having BPD. A person satisfying 85% of those criteria (thus, "not having BPD") may be nearly as impossible to live with as one satisfying 100% (thus, "having BPD").

 

Although you are able to tell that he is exhibiting nearly all the warning signs, only a professional can determine whether his traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria. But, ironically, whenever a high functioning BPDer is involved, you cannot rely on his therapist to tell him -- much less tell you -- the name of his disorder.

 

Your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a good psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself. By seeing someone who has not treated or seen your H, you will ensure that the professional is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not his. For a more detailed explanation on why therapists routinely withhold this information to protect BPDer clients, please see my post at Loath to Diagnose BPD. I also offer the following suggestions:

 

As an initial matter, given that you suspect your H has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell him. If he does have strong BPD traits, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage him to see a good psychologist and let the psych decide what to tell him.

 

Second, I suggest you read Stop Walking on Eggshells, the best-selling BPD book targeted to the abused spouses. The second-best selling book is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.

 

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" and "Leaving" boards and the "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" board.

 

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. A good place to begin is articles 1, 9, and 10.

 

Fifth, I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your adult children are dealing with. Relying on your H's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on his attorney for candid advice during a divorce.

 

Sixth, I suggest you read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article at Do You Love to be Needed, or Need to be Loved? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with our parents, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The last half of her article is the most insightful part so please be patient when reading it.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

[Downtown]

THE NEWS IS......H has 16 out of 18 of those characteristics. Shi&

For purposes of discussion, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the two behavioral traits he does NOT exhibit strongly -- and which of the others are the very strongest. I ask because some of the traits are more important than others.

[Chloecat]

Yes, the butter cutting that rings a bell. He is a nut case.

 

 

But my son LOVES the town he is living in, he loves his grandparents he is staying with.....he is all set to do the course in September at the college near the grandparents. He is in the college football league team. Doing so well.

 

 

If he came back....he wouldn't be in such a good team. He would be in a college not so keen on. But yes, he would be away from his dad.

 

 

At least we share my H. He is half time here with me and my daughter and half time with his parents and my Son.

 

 

Have to talk to Son about it. But, its tricky.

[Downtown]

Yes, the butter cutting that rings a bell. He is a nut case.

Butter cutting? What is that? I was asking which of the 18 warning signs apply very strongly and which don't apply at all.

[Chloecat]

For purposes of discussion, it would be helpful if you would tell us which of the two behavioral traits he does NOT exhibit strongly -- and which of the others are the very strongest. I ask because some of the traits are more important than others.

 

 

 

11 and 12 he doesn't seem to have so much of. 11 - he isn't a reckless spender or smoker or drinker at all. Quite responsible like that. And 12.

[Chloecat]

Thank you for all the information. I will check out those boards.

 

 

I cant leave him.

 

 

Why did I go for him? He was looking....I was vulnerable at the time...far from home. He said he loved me....adored me....he looked at me with adoring eyes.

 

 

I was never in love with him.

 

 

I was soft. soft hearted. Always been too empathic, always feeling sorry for someone.

 

 

My weakness.

 

 

Course I cant leave him. He isn't well. He would be with his elderly parents....I cant go through all that drama again

[spiderowl]

Your son might be old enough to stand up to his Dad but it's a big thing for someone of 18 to do and it's not fair he is put in that position. Could your son come and live with you instead of your husband? I can't quite tell if your husband is living with you or not.

 

Just reading your message I feel sad for you that you are in this awful position and I feel protective of your son. My son is older than yours and if his father was behaving like your son's father is, I would be worried about my son.

 

I can see you have reasons why you don't want to leave your husband but if you can't control his behaviour what else can you do to get across to him that he cannot behave like this? Also, can you get your son to a place where he doesn't have to deal with this awful guy? In your situation, I would be putting my children and my safety first before an objectionable character. I'm sure you do feel sorry for him but he has no reason to stop at the moment because you are not applying any sanctions.

 

Can you seek counselling over this guy and maybe counselling for your son too because you are both dealing with this bully?

[bathtub-row]

Yes, the butter cutting that rings a bell. He is a nut case.

 

 

But my son LOVES the town he is living in, he loves his grandparents he is staying with.....he is all set to do the course in September at the college near the grandparents. He is in the college football league team. Doing so well.

 

 

If he came back....he wouldn't be in such a good team. He would be in a college not so keen on. But yes, he would be away from his dad.

 

 

At least we share my H. He is half time here with me and my daughter and half time with his parents and my Son.

 

 

Have to talk to Son about it. But, its tricky.

 

I wasn't at all suggesting that you move your son out of the town he's in. I said that he needs to get out of that house and away from his dad - like moving to an apartment or dorm with other college kids. If that's not an option, then I say let him deal with his father. You're not going to leave your H, so you and your children are stuck with these dynamics and just need to deal with them. It'll never stop until he draws his last breath.

[bathtub-row]

I was soft. soft hearted. Always been too empathic, always feeling sorry for someone.

 

My weakness.

 

This is the reason that gets most women sucked into abusive or bad relationships. It's the same old story. Your real weakness is not understanding the broad scope of making such a bad choice in a partner. I know that you've been married to him for a long time and feel that you're in too deep. And I can't criticize you for that because I can understand it. I personally couldn't endure it but everyone is different.

 

I would, however, use this as a warning to others. Be very, very selective about who you marry. I can't emphasize enough how marrying badly can so deeply affect your life. Being selective isn't mean, it's smart and wise.

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Abusers have a mental defect & most can't turn it off. Your husband is showing who he really is & has always been. Abusers abuse others because of what is broken in their heads, not what others do to them.

[StellaGrace]

It sounds like you aren't willing to do anything to change the situation, but that is the only leverage you have - to look out for yourself and for your children. You cannot change him.

 

You are not responsible for your husband's emotions or his health; he is a grown man who is capable of making his own choices. If you feel unable to give him an ultimatum to get into counseling with a psychiatrist who has diagnostic capabilities before he moves back in for yourself, can you do it for your kids?

[Chloecat]

Its very complicated.

 

 

My Son loves his grandparents and he is staying with them. He is in a good football team there....and there is no where lese for him to live ....except here...an hours journey away. Not workable.

 

 

I am very worried, that when my back is turned....he will be talking to Son....telling him not to bother his mum....etc.

 

 

This afternoon H rang Son and Son put the phone on open so I could hear conversation. Nothing bad.

 

 

I could tell H not to come back....but, he would be with his parents ALL the time then and therefore with Son all the time...and maybe taking out his problems...sharing his anguish...with Son. not fair.

 

 

At least we all get to share him out. Oh goodie.

 

 

Couldn't sleep last night. The diagnosis of BPD rings so true. Do I really need a psychiatrist to confirm?

 

 

Everything makes sense now.

 

 

yes, be selective people. Be careful who you marry.

 

 

I have three children. One aged 48

[bathtub-row]

Its very complicated.

 

 

My Son loves his grandparents and he is staying with them. He is in a good football team there....and there is no where lese for him to live ....except here...an hours journey away. Not workable.

 

 

I am very worried, that when my back is turned....he will be talking to Son....telling him not to bother his mum....etc.

 

 

This afternoon H rang Son and Son put the phone on open so I could hear conversation. Nothing bad.

 

 

I could tell H not to come back....but, he would be with his parents ALL the time then and therefore with Son all the time...and maybe taking out his problems...sharing his anguish...with Son. not fair.

 

 

At least we all get to share him out. Oh goodie.

 

 

Couldn't sleep last night. The diagnosis of BPD rings so true. Do I really need a psychiatrist to confirm?

 

 

Everything makes sense now.

 

 

yes, be selective people. Be careful who you marry.

 

 

I have three children. One aged 48

 

Unless you just need some official diagnosis to make yourself feel better, I really don't understand why it matters if he's bi-polar or bi-stupid. He's a childish jerk. Instead of trying to fix or understand him, why not teach your children how to deal with him, how not to get sucked into his head games, to be self-protective, and not put up with his nonsense?

[StellaGrace]

If he's willing to go into counseling and he is diagnosed with BPD,, there are different medications to deal with the imbalance. If it's not BPD, then it's an anger issue that a professional can help him navigate through over time. But he has to be willing to go in for counseling.

 

I hear you that your son is with his grandparents who are your husbands' parents so husband is living there too. And you want to allow your husband back so your son doesn't have to deal with him so often, but then he will be dealing with your daughter, right? I guess you have no leverage with the husband then since your son chooses to stay in that situation and your husband has no home of his own... Perhaps you could you help get your son get an apartment (as a previous poster suggested)?

 

I know it's a long shot, but have you asked the husband if he will get counseling for the good of the family?

[Downtown]

Do I really need a psychiatrist to confirm?

Chloecat, you should be able to spot strong symptoms of BPD on your own because these are basic behavioral traits we all have. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

 

Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. As I tried to explain in post #9 above, the primary reason for getting a formal diagnosis is for treatment (something that few BPDers are willing to tolerate). Yet, for purposes of deciding whether you want to stay married to him, it really does not matter if his traits satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having BPD. A person satisfying 85% of those criteria (thus, "not having BPD") may be nearly as impossible to live with as one satisfying 100% (thus, "having BPD").

 

Of course, only a professional can diagnose your H's issues. Although you are able to tell that he is exhibiting nearly all warning signs, only a professional can determine whether his traits are so severe and persistent as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria. Knowing your H's diagnosis could be important to you as confirmation of your suspicions or if you are concerned that his issues -- whatever they are -- may have been passed down to one of your children.

 

But, ironically, whenever a high functioning BPDer is involved, you cannot rely on his therapist to tell him -- much less tell you -- the name of his disorder. Hence, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a good psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself. If you believe you may be needing medication, you may want to see a psychiatrist. He is able to prescribe meds because he has both a medical and psychiatric degree.

 

But, if you don't know you need meds, you likely can cut the office visit charge in half by seeing a psychologist, who likely is just as good at diagnosis. Because the psychologist doesn't have a medical degree, you are paying for only one degree (PhD in psychology) instead of two.

[Chloecat]

He will never go to counselling or anything like that.

 

 

He came back this morning and was lovely and kind. Hugging us all. Made me feel so guilty for thinking so meanly of him.

 

 

He went to speak to son, told him he was proud of him.

 

 

All the words were lovely, he hugged me and said he couldn't bear not being close.

 

 

I just have to accept things.

 

 

Ahhhhhh he nearly caught me typing this!!! He has been busy working on the house.

 

 

I feel so guilty feeling bad about him.

 

 

But I know what the other side of him is.

 

 

I was upset last night. At my sisters house.....crying, upset about H. If he knew. Oh the shame.

 

 

I feel guilty for crititising him. to faily.

[Chloecat]

Bad spelling. He came in to kitchen again. Like he knows something is up.

 

 

My d used to say he is like a snake....can feel vibrations on the ground.