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How low is the bar set for men?


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LostandLonging

I wasn’t sure where to put this so please feel free to move it if need be.

 

I saw an Instagram post from a man recently that said “Just because I treat you right, doesn’t mean I’m the one. I’m just doing what I’m supposed to do”

 

One of the comments under it was:

 

“YES. THIS IS GOLD. I have seriously heard women say “well, maybe I should stay with him because he doesn’t cheat, he doesn’t hit me, he is independent and doesn’t use me, he’s nice to my friends and family and doesn’t tear me down.Why the ****am I complaining? I’ll never find another guy like that.” I’ve heard guys say “I don’t get it, why did she leave? I never cheated on her once. I never hit her. I’ve always been nice to her.” And I’ve even heard people say,“If they treat you right then that’s all that matters.” NO. You aren’t an exceptional person for doing the bare minimum or for not doing the bad. You also are worthy of having someone who does more than just not treat you bad, but someone who makes you happy. Treating someone right is crucial, mandatory in fact, but that’s not all there is to it - there’s compatibility, passion, intimacy, attraction, fun, etc. and if something like that is missing, you’re not a jerk for wanting to try to find a relationship that has all that.”

 

It got me thinking. WHY do we worship men who do the bare decent human being minimum? Is the bar really set that low that we consider anyone who treats us with the basic respect one SHOULD treat their partner with a “catch”? Should we be THANKFUL we’re not being beaten to a bloody pulp by our partners every night? Are men really seen as that awful that we can expect at least ONE of the things mentioned above to happen to us in a relationship? Curious to hear others’ thoughts on the matter.

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Agreed!!

 

I have seen similar posts on other topics, such as expectations on children. A parent said they were proud their child was “singing very well instead of using drugs.” I was so horrified that simply “not doing drugs”seemed to be their elated expectation for that teen. While I realize that many folks live in areas where kids are constantly being offered drugs and needing to find their way while being bombarded with offers... personally I expect a heck of a lot more from my own child than simply not doing illegal activities. Omg!

 

Sad how many who have had poor experiences dating then accept the next better option which is not necessarily a great choice.

 

I have a peeve about folks dating the next person who is simply a notch better than most recent ex...eh. Friends have told me: “At least she doesn’t rage at me when I do such and such.” “At least she doesn’t seem too emotionally unstable or such.” ...eh

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WHY do we worship men who do the bare decent human being minimum?
IDK, IME the bar is far higher than that for 'worship'.
Is the bar really set that low that we consider anyone who treats us with the basic respect one SHOULD treat their partner with a “catch”?
Perhaps not a catch but rather a healthy baseline and toss back the ones who fail that test. Think of it as a base model and then add options of your choice.

 

Should we be THANKFUL we’re not being beaten to a bloody pulp by our partners every night?
Growing up, I knew some wives (friend's mothers) who definitely would have been and were. Why? Guess.
Are men really seen as that awful that we can expect at least ONE of the things mentioned above to happen to us in a relationship?
Well, the violent and abusive ones do seem to stand out, eh? I wonder why that is?
Curious to hear others’ thoughts on the matter.

 

Glad I'm older and it doesn't matter anymore and that I still mostly like and respect women in general. Had plenty of reasons over the decades not to. Time is a great healer. Not worried about not being a catch or whatever anymore. Best wishes with your relationships!

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thefooloftheyear

Most guys I know would be happy if their wives/gf's aren't nagging pains in the asses and don't get fat....And a lot of those same guys will take a slim nag and be happy...

 

Id say that's a pretty low bar for women, no?..

 

TFY

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Cookiesandough

Yeah,. I’ve noticed this for a long time. So many women make excuses for men that they wouldn’t make for women, including themselves. I was reminded of this most recently on a Valentine’s Day threadSI’m not sure if it was here or another forum, but someone made a thread that her husband forgot a Valentine’s Day gift(she had given him one).. She was offended. People were telling her it was NBD. Which OK, if that’s what you think that’s one thing. But the arguments they were making like “guys forget things”, “Men don’t remember important holidays”, and that she grateful she has a loyal man(?). So all she should care about is that he doesn’t cheat? I don’t know I found it weird. Men are just as capable of remembering dates and gift-giving as I am. Maybe the men in their life don’t remember things because they don’t have to?

Edited by Cookiesandough
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Yeah,. I’ve noticed this for a long time. So many women make excuses for men that they wouldn’t make for women, including themselves. I was reminded of this most recently on a Valentine’s Day threadSI’m not sure if it was here or another forum, but someone made a thread that her husband forgot a Valentine’s Day gift(she had given him one).. She was offended. People were telling her it was NBD. Which OK, if that’s what you think that’s one thing. But the arguments they were making like “guys forget things”, “Men don’t remember important holidays”, and that she grateful she has a loyal man(?). So all she should care about is that he doesn’t cheat? I don’t know I found it weird. Men are just as capable of remembering dates and gift-giving as I am. Maybe the men in their life don’t remember things because they don’t have to?

 

That's not a guy thing. It's a person thing. I forget our Anniversary every damn year. It's been 25 years and I can't tell you the date....I just know we celebrate it on a holiday weekend and I can't even remember that. Hubby gets a quite a laugh each time I finally remember. Just because you remember doesn't mean that we all remember.

 

So yes, I think that if the guy is a great partner who makes her feel valued on a regular basis, then she should count her blessings and get over it.

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“YES. THIS IS GOLD. I have seriously heard women say well, maybe I should stay with him because he doesn’t cheat, he doesn’t hit me, he is independent and doesn’t use me, he’s nice to my friends and family and doesn’t tear me down.Why the ****am I complaining? I’ll never find another guy like that.” I’ve heard guys say “I don’t get it, why did she leave? I never cheated on her once. I never hit her. I’ve always been nice to her.” And I’ve even heard people say,“If they treat you right then that’s all that matters.” NO. You aren’t an exceptional person for doing the bare minimum or for not doing the bad. You also are worthy of having someone who does more than just not treat you bad, but someone who makes you happy. Treating someone right is crucial, mandatory in fact, but that’s not all there is to it - there’s compatibility, passion, intimacy, attraction, fun, etc. and if something like that is missing, you’re not a jerk for wanting to try to find a relationship that has all that.”

 

I don't see that we do worship men who are just the basic amount of good. I mean, how do you explain all the women who are single because they won't "settle"? Or what about the guys who are very good men but can't find a date because they don't have quite the right amount of zing to make it click with a woman?

 

What if the example you gave is said by a married woman? They might have had that connection years ago, but they've both changed and now don't connect like they used to. But no matter what, he still treats her with respect and is a thoughtful caring husband. Does she forget her marriage vows because all he's got going for him now is that he's a good man?

Edited by basil67
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LostandLonging
I have seen similar posts on other topics, such as expectations on children. A parent said they were proud their child was “singing very well instead of using drugs.” I was so horrified that simply “not doing drugs”seemed to be their elated expectationfor that teen.

 

Yeah, exactly this!! My partner for example [has] a hobby. While he “could be going out gambling every night”, our house is still an absolute mess, overflowing with [stuff from his hobby] in every room and spare spot in the house making it look like we just moved in after living there for 5 years and depressing the hell out of me everytime I walk through the door. Of course, there is always the constant promise that he’s working on moving everything, but it never happens and he just buys more and more. Should I be thankful that he isn’t out blowing our money instead or do I have a right to be angry that he’s turned our home into a pigsty? Should I just live with it because "things could be worse"? It's as though the possibility of worse behaviour is somehow supposed to excuse the already existing bad behaviour.

 

Growingup, I knew some wives (friend's mothers) who definitely would have been and were. Why? Guess.

 

Please share.

 

Well, the violent and abusive ones do seem to stand out, eh? I wonder why that is?

 

Please share.

 

Most guys I know would be happy if their wives/gf's aren't nagging pains in the asses and don't get fat....And a lot of those same guys will take a slim nag and be happy...

 

Id say that's a pretty low bar for women, no?..

 

TFY

 

 

So basically a woman who never asks you to do anything and one you still want to [have sex with]?

 

Please stick to the topic. If you want to start a thread on the bar being set low for women, you know where the "Post New Thread" option is. []

 

Edit: Why is "fat" SO unbelievably dreaded by men?

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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Cookiesandough
That's not a guy thing. It's a person thing. I forget our Anniversary every damn year. It's been 25 years and I can't tell you the date....I just know we celebrate it on a holiday weekend and I can't even remember that. Hubby gets a quite a laugh each time I finally remember. Just because you remember doesn't mean that we all remember.

 

So yes, I think that if the guy is a great partner who makes her feel valued on a regular basis, then she should count her blessings and get over it.

 

I agree I am very forgetful and not too fond of hallmark holidays. But they were making it about gender.

 

I don’t know what I would do in that situation. If it’s that important to her maybe she should have a talk with him about it. If he values her maybe it’s something they can compromise on, but idk

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LostandLonging
someone made a thread that her husband forgot a Valentine’s Day gift(she had given him one).. She was offended. People were telling her it was NBD. Which OK, if that’s what you think that’s one thing. But the arguments they were making like “guys forget things”, “Men don’t remember important holidays”, and that she grateful she has a loyal man(?). So all she should care about is that he doesn’t cheat? I don’t know I found it weird.

 

 

Yeah, stuff like this too. It almost attempts to minimise the obvious hurt she's feeling from him forgetting and devalues her feelings.

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Please share. (spousal abuse)

 

I'm older and spousal abuse was a lot more common when I was young than perhaps it is now. I saw some of it firsthand and sometimes would assist if a male friend went to bat for his mother. Combat wasn't unusual. Still, for whatever reasons, these women stayed married to those men either for life or for a long time.

 

 

 

Please share.(violent/abusive men standing out)

 

Sure, they're more noticeable. They move people emotionally, whether that be to violence themselves (commonly male) or fear (both male and female). Emotional memories are formed and a lasting imprint of the human is recorded. Threads on LoveShack appear. You'll rarely see threads expounding the virtues of a calm, respectful man because, well, that's 'expected' so unremarkable. Such men, shudders, are sometimes even 'boring'. No emotional stimulation. Lump on a log. Dead fish. Or as LS'ers like to opine 'A nice guy' ;)

 

I was fortunate to have a 'boring' respectful guy for a father, a guy who treated my mother exceedingly well, so I could see the marked dichotomy of behavior between what I personally witnessed with friends and what went on at home. I thought I was getting a good prep for what women expected of a man. Bzzzt, nope. Some women, sure. However, women who got imprinted with their mothers, or even themselves, getting decked as being 'loving', nah they didn't see my demeanor as even normal, much less loving. In fact, my exW, after getting to know my mother (father was dead at that point), commented more than once that I had a 'Beaver Cleaver' family and in no way was that a compliment. It was antithetical to her experiences with, well, a very different family environment. I'll leave it at that.

 

What all that taught me was the differences between what women 'like' and what they're 'attracted to'. I mistakenly thought they were the same thing. Bzzt, fail there buddy.

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LostandLonging
I'm older and spousal abuse was a lot more common when I was young than perhaps it is now. I saw some of it firsthand and sometimes would assist if a male friend went to bat for his mother. Combat wasn't unusual. Still, for whatever reasons, these women stayed married to those men either for life or for a long time.

 

Back then marriage really was for better or worse, even if that worse meant your husband coming home drunk every night and punching you in the face. Women still had so little and needed men. They didn't feel like they had a choice. At least that's what I observed with my mother. My grandfather used to literally WHISTLE for his wife to get him another beer. The treatment of women was just despicable.

Edited by LostandLonging
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While in the 50's and 60's women were increasingly working and able to be self-supporting, they had been socialized in the 'stand by your man for better or worse' era and that programming was strong, even in the face of abusive behaviors. From being married I noted what to me was an odd result, that my wife at the time despised her mother for putting up with such from both her father and later boyfriends when she was young.

 

I didn't realize how deep FOO issues can run since I never had that experience. When she'd talk about aspects of therapy when younger, long before we met, she'd mention things like masking and thinking a relationship, like they were things she learned that applied to others, but what I didn't realize at the time was she was talking about herself. As her third H, I think she was trying on the everyday guy with the seemingly normal mother in law thing. Looking back I don't think she was attracted and was instead thinking the whole deal, kinda wanting to like it but not feeling it at her core. Not exactly a healthy basis for a marriage.

 

Want boring? :D No rock-em sock-em when dad came home, dinner was hot and ready to be served, the day's paper on the chair, the ashtray cleaned and the phone had already rung at a half-dozen houses down the street telling the wayward son to get his butt home for dinner. Never saw either parent take a drink, ever, but mom did start keeping beer in the fridge while I was going to college and living at home. A wild party night out was bowling and having a burger and fries while the guys sat around and smoked and the other guys drank beer. Dad drank coffee.

 

I expected women to set the bar high but I was clueless about what kind of high that was. Everything I'd been role-modeled on was completely wrong :D

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Yeah, exactly this!! My partner for example [has] a hobby. While he “could be going out gambling every night”, our house is still an absolute mess, overflowing with [stuff from his hobby] in every room and spare spot in the house making it look like we just moved in after living there for 5 years and depressing the hell out of me everytime I walk through the door. Of course, there is always the constant promise that he’s working on moving everything, but it never happens and he just buys more and more. Should I be thankful that he isn’t out blowing our money instead or do I have a right to be angry that he’s turned our home into a pigsty? Should I just live with it because "things could be worse"? It's as though the possibility of worse behaviour is somehow supposed to excuse the already existing bad behaviour.

 

How about being both grateful that you have a good man who's being sensible with his money and distressed about the mess? Both are legitimate feelings.

 

Binary approaches are never wise.

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OP can you consciously change your emotional processing? As example, if xxx is a decidedly healthy way to feel and you feel yyy which isn't working well for you in relationships, have you ever successfully altered your emotional perspective on interactions, thoughts and personal experiences? IME, that was the tough part of MC, taking the thinking part and getting it down to the nuts and bolts of feeling. IME, anything else it's just as exW used to opine, a mask. Once there, it's pretty amazing. Perfect? Nope.

 

Also, something that kinda boring regular guy taught me that I believe still has traction today is that once a partner or spouse starts an accounting of the relationship or marriage, it's doomed. He came at it from the perspective of an actual accountant and actuary and how those processes of thinking and analyzing like a spreadsheet are antithetical to what a healthy relationship/marriage should be. You may not be currently engaged in it but if you ever catch yourself going well I am/do/feel xxx and he xxxx and I'm right and he's wrong, watch out for that, especially if a list starts to result and you start pulling up stuff from ancient history to fill it. Same for him. Live and love in the now. Set the bar high for yourself and you'll be a shining example to your partner or spouse.

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LostandLonging
How about being both grateful that you have a good man who's being sensible with his money and distressed about the mess? Both are legitimate feelings.

 

Binary approaches are never wise.

 

Sure, but I’m talking about using one as a defence against the other.

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thefooloftheyear

So basically a woman who never asks you to do anything and one you still want to [have sex with]?

 

Please stick to the topic. If you want to start a thread on the bar being set low for women, you know where the "Post New Thread" option is. []

 

Edit: Why is "fat" SO unbelievably dreaded by men?

 

Point is, why would a woman complain about a low bar for men, when most men(even some desirable men) don't set the bar all that high for women??

 

I mean, seems like a lot of hypocrisy, no??.

 

I never heard a guy say he needs a woman to make 100K plus a year, yet women say that about guys all the time..I could list many other examples but don't want to turn this into a gender war..

 

So back to your question...

 

I know of no (what I would consider desirable) women who set a low bar for any guy they are with...Nor would they ever talk about it...If you feel you are in that category, then let your friends settle for frogs and go find your Prince...

 

TFY

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What all that taught me was the differences between what women 'like' and what they're 'attracted to'. I mistakenly thought they were the same thing. .

 

 

Ding Ding Ding.....we have a winner.

 

and there in lies one of the biggest complaints from men.

 

 

 

 

But back to the the point

 

Loyally and genuine kindness in a partner IS hard to find for women... or men these days. Those things should be a turn on an foster some passion - but they often dont.

Edited by dichotomy
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littleblackheart
genuine kindness in a partner IS hard to find for women... or men these days. Those things should be a turn on an foster some passion - but they often dont.

 

Yes. Also the ability to look in the mirror.

 

I can honestly that my personality is not suited to being in a relationship. I don't want to impose my 'flaws' onto anyone else. I need a lot of personal time that any decent man who wants companionship would not be happy with, among other 'issues' - probably why I wounded with an abuser. He cared so little that I was free to do what I wanted, so long as his ego went unaffected. Also, he did lie a fare amount - that's the problem with abusers; they lie.

 

Not everyone is suited to be in a relationship yet feel somehow pressured to be in one anyway.

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[...]Curious to hear others’ thoughts on the matter.

 

The problem is that you worry about Instagram comments. Why would I even care? All I have to do is find somebody for me, it really doesn't matter what the rest of society thinks about it. And I've been in my share of what people might consider "odd matches".

 

Nobody sets a bar for me, it's all about what I want, what risk I take to find that person, and what I can negotiate.

 

If there is something you don't like about your partner it is something that you need to address.

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littleblackheart

If there is something you don't like about your partner it is something that you need to address.

 

That's fine in theory, but it doesn't always work that way in practice because feelings develop, other pressures set in and you just want to see the best in people and believe their word when they say things will change. I can't be as clinical as that, so I prefer not to get involved because I can't really read the signs of dysfunction when I am emotionally invested (I have ASD).

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All that stuff in the way she treats him is a big consideration for a guy too especially if he wants to marry her,

 

But he probably won't marry her just because of that stuff , but it's crucial if his got any brains , that that stuff is a big part of her.

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The bar is not set low. The bar is set realistically.

 

 

Treating me right, is the foundation to build on. There is enough

there for me to invest the time to get to know them. Really.

 

That is not settling. That is having a good starting point.

Dating is then the time to see if they share values, what to be each

others primary recreational partner, and cannot keep their hands of

of each other equally. Oh, (head shake side to side) the amount of

people posting that had marriage problems with mismatched sex

drives.

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That's fine in theory, but it doesn't always work that way in practice because feelings develop, other pressures set in and you just want to see the best in people and believe their word when they say things will change. I can't be as clinical as that, so I prefer not to get involved because I can't really read the signs of dysfunction when I am emotionally invested (I have ASD).

 

I can see how you wouldn't be able to to read signs of dysfunction. But you would also be able to tell when somebody doesn't live up to their word. Even the fact that you chose to not get involved is a sign of you taking control to me, and not letting somebody else decide for you.

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