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#MeToo and an OW's experience


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Old 29th January 2018, 5:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by stillafool View Post
OW are grown women who know that if a man is married he is not available for a relationship with them.
I agree with what you are saying. I believe the OW in the situation ultimately is responsible for her actions. Although, I think Lemon is referring to dealing from a position of power and using that power to exploit a person who is vulnerable to exploitation.

Another personal example. After I broke up with my first long-term girlfriend, we continued to sleep together for a period of time. I always made it perfectly clear I never intended on getting back together. So when she would feel hurt and used after we had sex, at first I felt not responsibility. I felt she knew the score, so it was nobody's fault but hers.

However, my attitude changed. While the majority of the responsibility was on her for her own choices, I was also wrong. I was taking advantage of the fact she still had feelings for me and exploiting that vulnerability. Even though she knew and consented, it still was exploitation of a weakness. So I put the kibosh on the sex because it made me feel like a predator.

IMO, that is the side of the #MeToo movement Lemon is referring to.

But I also believe the majority of MM are caught up in the fantasy just as much as the OW. They are lying to her just as much as they're lying to themselves. It is when the affair bubble bursts and hearts get broken, do they realize they cannot make good on their promises. Because of that, I do not see most affairs as exploitative or comparable to the what women are expressing with #MeToo
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Old 29th January 2018, 5:49 PM   #17
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I agree with what you are saying. I believe the OW in the situation ultimately is responsible for her actions. Although, I think Lemon is referring to dealing from a position of power and using that power to exploit a person who is vulnerable to exploitation.

Another personal example. After I broke up with my first long-term girlfriend, we continued to sleep together for a period of time. I always made it perfectly clear I never intended on getting back together. So when she would feel hurt and used after we had sex, at first I felt not responsibility. I felt she knew the score, so it was nobody's fault but hers.

However, my attitude changed. While the majority of the responsibility was on her for her own choices, I was also wrong. I was taking advantage of the fact she still had feelings for me and exploiting that vulnerability. Even though she knew and consented, it still was exploitation of a weakness. So I put the kibosh on the sex because it made me feel like a predator.

IMO, that is the side of the #MeToo movement Lemon is referring to.

But I also believe the majority of MM are caught up in the fantasy just as much as the OW. They are lying to her just as much as they're lying to themselves. It is when the affair bubble bursts and hearts get broken, do they realize they cannot make good on their promises. Because of that, I do not see most affairs as exploitative or comparable to the what women are expressing with #MeToo
Yes, this is a great example. Good for you for quitting the hook-ups with your ex; you did the right thing by her.

You asked about intent earlier, and I go back and forth about what his intent was. Sometimes I think he really did intend to leave his wife at the start, but other times I wonder if it was more calculated than that; if he’s actually a serial cheater who was feeding me lines. I try not to over-analyze it though as it doesn’t change the outcome... just have been thinking more about this lately, for whatever reason.
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Old 29th January 2018, 6:04 PM   #18
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I disagree with some of this...

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Originally Posted by Imajerk17 View Post
Sorry but this thread illustrates an attitude of still not taking responsibility for your part in the affair even after all these years--despite your caveats and whatnot to the contrary. You were NOT a victim. You were not even 'kind of' a victim. A woman who stepped into an affair WILLINGLY cannot compare herself *in any way* to a **pre-adolescent girl** who actually was physically violated. Not even 'kind of sort of'.
I disagree with some of this... and here is how.

Now the doctor was a creep child molester. There is no excuse for him, in any way. And he did groom those children so that he could molest them.

When he is killed in prison, and most likely he will be, I will not shed one tear.

Now, women that are actually Raped or Sexually harassed there is just no excuse for that in any way. Ever.

Now as for Grooming an AP/OW, that defiantly happens without a doubt.

In this case, lets face it, the woman involved makes some really bad decisions and they are responsible for that. But come on, if you are a player, you know how to do this, and frankly the women evolved really do not have a chance.

There is responsibility on their part, but most woman that have never been involved with a man like this are really unprepared.

For me though, I never took that tact, although I understand how to do it, I always thought that is was just too sleazy.

And I am in no way a player any more, and never will be again. But for example, married women are the easiest in most situations.

They have a crappy husband sometimes, or an unromantic low drive husband that is not giving her the attentions that she really needs but is unable or unwilling to verbalize. She is just Ripe for the picking.

Example, now I would never do this, but there is a young girl at work. She is married and way too young for me. But for whatever reason she has the hots for me. (Which is really silly of her)

Now I could spend a little time on her, and take her to bed probably in about 2 weeks. She actually has no idea what she is doing, and she is hot, but she is an easy target for anyone that can see it.

Now, would she make some bad decisions if I pursued her, certainly, but would she stand a chance if I poured on the charm, no way.

Then there is another part of this issue that bothers me. With every one of these starlets jumping on the band wagon, and I am sure many of them were taken advantage of in the most horrible way, but you know, some were not.

You cannot tell me that some actresses would not gladly sleep with some of these produces to get a part. It may not be right, but what about the ones that participated willingly in this to get a big part?

How are we to feel about that?
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Old 29th January 2018, 6:04 PM   #19
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No that STILL shows a lack of taking responsibility.

'I couldn't walk away! I was groomed! Big Bad MM used the Magic Words on me!

Meanwhile, your MM was not Harvey Weinstein. He couldn't make you a star with the wave of his hand. Correct me if I am mistaken but there wasn't that much of a difference in professional power between the two of you. And looking back on your Opening Post on your last thread, you admitted yourself to being clear-eyed about how wrong the situation was and how you missed the feelings, and then you willingly walked back into affair with MM.

Coming out of the affair fog... update from lemon 2 years later

Post #1.

So I find the idea of you saying Me Too in this situation to be...well distasteful.
I appreciate what you’re saying here. No, he couldn’t make me a star like Harvey Weinstein could. Yes, I had could have walked away at any time, and there were some times when I felt clearer-eyed than others.

There was a bit of a power dynamic due to age difference (he being 15 years older) and working in a generally sexist office. We were on different teams though so he didn’t have professional power over me.
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Old 29th January 2018, 6:15 PM   #20
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I disagree with some of this... and here is how.

Now the doctor was a creep child molester. There is no excuse for him, in any way. And he did groom those children so that he could molest them.

When he is killed in prison, and most likely he will be, I will not shed one tear.

Now, women that are actually Raped or Sexually harassed there is just no excuse for that in any way. Ever.

Now as for Grooming an AP/OW, that defiantly happens without a doubt.

In this case, lets face it, the woman involved makes some really bad decisions and they are responsible for that. But come on, if you are a player, you know how to do this, and frankly the women evolved really do not have a chance.

There is responsibility on their part, but most woman that have never been involved with a man like this are really unprepared.

For me though, I never took that tact, although I understand how to do it, I always thought that is was just too sleazy.

And I am in no way a player any more, and never will be again. But for example, married women are the easiest in most situations.

They have a crappy husband sometimes, or an unromantic low drive husband that is not giving her the attentions that she really needs but is unable or unwilling to verbalize. She is just Ripe for the picking.

Example, now I would never do this, but there is a young girl at work. She is married and way too young for me. But for whatever reason she has the hots for me. (Which is really silly of her)

Now I could spend a little time on her, and take her to bed probably in about 2 weeks. She actually has no idea what she is doing, and she is hot, but she is an easy target for anyone that can see it.

Now, would she make some bad decisions if I pursued her, certainly, but would she stand a chance if I poured on the charm, no way.

Then there is another part of this issue that bothers me. With every one of these starlets jumping on the band wagon, and I am sure many of them were taken advantage of in the most horrible way, but you know, some were not.

You cannot tell me that some actresses would not gladly sleep with some of these produces to get a part. It may not be right, but what about the ones that participated willingly in this to get a big part?

How are we to feel about that?
You’ve got two main points in this post - for the first one, thank you for explaining this from a male perspective. This is the type of thing I’m getting at - what happens when men who are more calculated then you are, and who are actually out looking, find someone who is kind of naive and susceptible to their charms and/or sob story.

To the second point, about the willing participants who are essentially using sexual power for their gain; I agree that those exist, but think that it’s a separate issue. In the case you mention - actresses happily sleeping with Harvey in order to get the part - I think it would be exceedingly rare for those types to later come forward with allegations of harassment or assault. Sounds like more of a voluntary transaction; not exactly kosher, but probably far more common than is known.
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Old 29th January 2018, 7:39 PM   #21
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Me too can mean anything really...although I'm not certain the intent of the start of it was meant to be what it is becoming. But than again it is opening the dialogue for many different views!

If you identify with the sentiment I don't see the harm of it, just be careful you are not taking a victimizing role
In your personal situation. That's dangerous and will hold you back.

I was raped at a young age and it took several years not to identify as a victim. I felt the most pain while being a victim. Choosing not to be was the start of a different me, only the start though on a very long road!

Maybe because of my own personal experience I can't see how someone can be groomed. Don't we all have consciousness that tells us right and wrong? I just don't believe if some man uses his charms on someone that a woman will fall for it and call it grooming. Where is the accountability in that?

She may not want to admit to herself she made a bad decision but you can never hide from yourself for long.
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Old 29th January 2018, 8:49 PM   #22
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I believe this can apply to mw as well as married men.

Someone who is in a vulnerable position, maybe with a low self esteem and naivety as well, can easily fall for the charms that someone else might find sleazy and be able to spot a mile away.

That could be a good idea for a thread. What sorts of behaviors to watch out for that could indicate a mw/mm ( or anyone else for that matter) is hoping for more than just a colleague relationship. I'm not saying that the ow/om is a victim, but if they can recognize the early stages of this sort of dynamic, they can stop it before it ever really has a chance to get started and end up hurting someone.
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Old 29th January 2018, 8:53 PM   #23
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When you add to much to a movement, you run the risk of losing credibility.

There are a lot of men who understand the why and truly know harrassment is a BIG problem. However when you throw in ALL bad behaviour by MEN ONLY, and the accussation alone becomes judge, jury and executioner, the founding principles of innocent until proven guilty are lost and you will lose those who you need to reach.

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Old 30th January 2018, 7:01 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by lemondrop21 View Post
Yes, this is a great example. Good for you for quitting the hook-ups with your ex; you did the right thing by her.

You asked about intent earlier, and I go back and forth about what his intent was. Sometimes I think he really did intend to leave his wife at the start, but other times I wonder if it was more calculated than that; if he’s actually a serial cheater who was feeding me lines. I try not to over-analyze it though as it doesn’t change the outcome... just have been thinking more about this lately, for whatever reason.
I think most people would wonder that. The reality is that you may never know his intent and moving on is about accepting that you will never be 100% sure and being okay with that. From my experience - I went no contact with nothing left unsaid and believing that we would never have contact again. That it was all a game on his part. Now I knew that I would never contact him again. When he came back divorced it was only at that point that I knew that what he had been telling me was the truth. Had he never come back then I would have believed the intent was to just use me.

There is every chance that what OneLove says is true - that he believed it at the time of saying it. I think this happens a lot more than people give it credit.
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Old 30th January 2018, 7:43 AM   #25
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Lemondrop I get what you're saying. I know I'm pretty forward and blunt when it comes to other people, but usually married people.

First let me say, your pain is your pain and you should never minimize it or compare it to others, just recognize the YOUR pain is self inflicted while your behavior contributed to his family's pain.

I don't like groomed, it sounds helpless, but no doubt there are men well versed in finding a woman's insecurities and playing on them to take advantage of the situation. Unfortunately, we men have been conditioned through societal norms to not he ourselves when interacting with potential sex partners but rather using what works.

Now with that said, all it took was a "nope, not interested until you're divorced"

You are responsible for you, yet you were a victim but a victim to your insecurities, and the thought that maybe he was the best option you had or that no one else would"get you like he did".

Either way, you're out now, congratulations keep moving forward, try not to dwell so much on his behavior, focus more on how YOU allowed it to happen, so it doesn't happen again.
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Old 30th January 2018, 8:19 AM   #26
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I had a 3 month affair with a married man who I totally fell for but I didnt find out he was married until about a year and a half after I last saw him. The only reason I stopped seeing him was that he got orders to move to Hawaii. We continued to text and talk on the phone but I was adamant that I didn't want to wait for him to come back. Eventually, though, I agreed to visit and he told me that he would get us a hotel room so we could treat it like a real vacation together. I told him I wanted to see where he lived. Something about the convo left me feeling like he was hiding something so I googled my heart out until I found a facebook page that was under his and wife's first names. The most recent post was a couple of days earlier and was a long sappy "youre the only one for me" post from him to her for their 16th wedding anniversary.

Sooo, obviously this situation is very different than if I had known he was married but... I felt so groomed. I don't think anyone had ever treated me so unambiguosly loving. I was completely sucked in. And so, so hurt. And I think I'm always going to feel pain at the thought of him. It wasn't the same pain as having my heart broken. I felt very victimized.

I have been raped twice, once at 17 and once maybe a year or so ago. There was a lot that was awful about those situations, but neither of them hurt me nearly as much as this guy I consented to having sex with.

I had not thought about it being similar to sexual assault but I swear, I don't think I've ever felt like more of a victim. I can certainly imagine that someone who knew of their affair partner's status could also feel that way to some extent, maybe just as much.
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Old 30th January 2018, 8:22 AM   #27
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Either way, you're out now, congratulations keep moving forward, try not to dwell so much on his behavior, focus more on how YOU allowed it to happen, so it doesn't happen again.
I believe that's exactly what she's doing with this thread. Both for herself AND others to recognize the "grooming" behavior - to prevent being sucked in by it in the future.

And trust me, for the majority of us women, it WILL happen again. The attempt will be made.
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Old 30th January 2018, 8:59 AM   #28
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I believe that's exactly what she's doing with this thread. Both for herself AND others to recognize the "grooming" behavior - to prevent being sucked in by it in the future.

And trust me, for the majority of us women, it WILL happen again. The attempt will be made.
If you're not open to it then you can't be groomed. Strengthen your resolve and whatever any other man attempts you won't be falling for it.
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Old 30th January 2018, 10:26 AM   #29
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IMHO...the premise of this post is why women will NEVER rule the world.

Either woman are strong & own their choices & or we’re some poor little dears that can get sooo easily talked into something bc we’re just so vulnerable & can’t possibly figure out that we’re being played...come on! Even the men answering this are pretending they were just sooo good that of course women would fall for what they were saying.

No typical adult woman is groomed for anything. It’s called denial & loving every second of the attention. I’ve been sexually assaulted, sexually harassed & to even compare having an affair in the same sentence is the reason this #metoo movement is going to be looked at as a witch hunt & joke.

The “grooming” you’re speaking of is part of the relationship...is a man “grooming” a woman he wants to become closer to in dating bc men usually use their same moves no matter if they want a relationship, just to have sex & or just to get a date with a woman...unless a man forces himself on you or doesn’t stop at no, it’s not the same, not close to the same. Stop blaming men bc you handed your self worth over willingly.
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Old 30th January 2018, 10:44 AM   #30
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I do disagree with this...

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Originally Posted by Whoknew30 View Post
IMHO...the premise of this post is why women will NEVER rule the world.

Either woman are strong & own their choices & or we’re some poor little dears that can get sooo easily talked into something bc we’re just so vulnerable & can’t possibly figure out that we’re being played...come on! Even the men answering this are pretending they were just sooo good that of course women would fall for what they were saying.

No typical adult woman is groomed for anything. It’s called denial & loving every second of the attention. I’ve been sexually assaulted, sexually harassed & to even compare having an affair in the same sentence is the reason this #metoo movement is going to be looked at as a witch hunt & joke.

The “grooming” you’re speaking of is part of the relationship...is a man “grooming” a woman he wants to become closer to in dating bc men usually use their same moves no matter if they want a relationship, just to have sex & or just to get a date with a woman...unless a man forces himself on you or doesn’t stop at no, it’s not the same, not close to the same. Stop blaming men bc you handed your self worth over willingly.
It is not that men are not taken advantage of by women, but is some of these affair situations, I believe that a lot of women do get taken for a ride.

I don't know how you would ever find out who takes advantage whom more???

Hell, I have been taken advantage of by women before, and I am no kid.

So I cannot say that women are strong, independent and in charge so they cannot be taken advantage of... And I can't say that about men either.

So, since everyone can be weak, and everyone can be taken advantage of you can't really make any definitive statements about either gender.

People make bad decisions, and people get taken advantage of...
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