Friend zone vs objectification

[nospam99]

I am back in 'the dating world' after a long absence. As a child of the 50s I grew up in the 60s with a lot of indoctrination about not treating women as sex objects. On the other hand, I'm seeing a lot of posts here strongly suggesting that women want sex and especially they want sex to assure themselves that they are desirable to their male SOs and that those male SOs think enough of them as sexual beings to be their sex partners.

 

I'm a bit confused because my 'simple male brain' is not fully getting how this assurance is different from being a sex object. This is particularly confusing when the women in question post that they have been through a series of sexual relationships which, to me, suggests that being sexually desirable can be a higher priority and more personally fulfilling than an emotional connection. I'm also seeing a lot of posts suggesting that if the male potential SOs don't exhibit 'enough' sexual interest that they risk being rather permanently assigned to 'the friend zone' whereupon their possibility of ever being considered as a romantic partner is reduced to almost nothing.

 

How badly am I misunderstanding what appears to be a contradiction about women wanting or not wanting to be considered as sex objects? There is a nuance here that I'm not getting. Could someone (females probably better) explain what appears to me to be a VERY subtle difference?

[basil67]

To me (50yo woman), treating a woman like a sex object is about seeing her only value as someone to have sex wtih.

 

What you're talking about with modern relationships are women who already (hopefully) feel valued as more than someone just to have sex with, but want to feel sexy to you as well.

[carhill]

They want you to want them, not to be confused with any concurrent absolute of wanting you.

[Popsicle]

I'm not buying that you don't understand this.

[grays]

Agree w above posters about treating women as more than sex objects. But the other thing that seems to be missing in your thinking is that women might have sex because they actually enjoy sex or enjoy being close to another person.

 

You say "they have been through a series of sexual relationships which, to me, suggests that being sexually desirable can be a higher priority and more personally fulfilling than an emotional connection." Why do you think its all about wanting to be desired and not about wanting to have sex? And why do you think these women were not experiencing an emotional connection while they were having these sexual encounters?

 

I was just talking to a friend a couple of nights ago about a man half my age who I knew for all of six hours during which I fell in love with him and had sex. That was probably two years ago and I can't even remember his name but I think fondly of him often. There was no way he was going to be a life partner for me but it wasnt for the most part about wanting to be desired (though it is really nice for everyone to feel desired, I believe), it was much more about feeling close and connected.

 

And I also don't think wanting to be desired is the same thing as wanting to be treated as a sex object. I want to be desired for all that I bring to the table. Which is what previous posters were saying...

[basil67]

How does this question relate to the title words "friend zone"?

[elaine567]

How does this question relate to the title words "friend zone"?

 

I think what he is saying is that "women" either like to be viewed as "sex objects" or they will put a man in the friend zone.

 

I do not know any woman looking for a relationship that wants to be seen as a "sex object"...

 

sex object

noun [ C ] uk ​ /ˈseks ˌɒb.dʒɪkt/ us ​ /ˈseks ˌɑːb.dʒɪkt/

 

If you consider someone to be, or you treat someone like a sex object, you are only interested in them sexually, and not as a person.

 

[somanymistakes]

The "friend zone" is a damaging concept to consider partly because people use it to mean a lot of different things, some of which are more valid than others. If you don't know exactly which variant of this so-called zone you are talking about, you will get a lot of highly contradictory comments and a lot of angry people. Some men honestly use "friend zone" to complain about any woman who does not want to sleep with them for any reason whatsoever.

 

Now, this:

I'm also seeing a lot of posts suggesting that if the male potential SOs don't exhibit 'enough' sexual interest that they risk being rather permanently assigned to 'the friend zone' whereupon their possibility of ever being considered as a romantic partner is reduced to almost nothing.

 

Is a slightly more specific idea. And there is something potentially valid to be discussed there. But if you throw around the term 'friend zone' you will run into women who have been accused of 'friend zoning' men by breaking up with them over their drinking problems or something, and will thus be very angry and will start yelling at you about the whole idea being sexist and so on, which just leaves both sides feeling terrible.

 

As for the 'contradiction' being faced here, it's not a subtle difference. The idea is that it's important to let a woman know, early on, that you find her attractive, if you want her to consider you as a potential mate. Especially if you're meeting in some kind of singles environment or on a blind date or something. If on your first date she doesn't get any signals that you're attracted to her at all, she's probably not going to want to keep seeing you. And if she meets you in a crowd of people and you make it clear that you're interested, then that boosts her need to evaluate you and decide if she's interested or not. It's not a guarantee that she will be, but it means she'll think about it, even if she doesn't tell you how those thoughts go.

 

However, showing that you are attracted to her is not the same as showing that you think she's a sex object, something that is ONLY good for having sex with and that you otherwise care nothing for.

 

 

Also, the idea that your chances once you're thought of as a platonic friend are 'almost nothing' is incorrect, but that's a different story entirely.

[elaine567]

The "friend zone" is a damaging concept to consider partly because people use it to mean a lot of different things, some of which are more valid than others. If you don't know exactly which variant of this so-called zone you are talking about, you will get a lot of highly contradictory comments and a lot of angry people. Some men honestly use "friend zone" to complain about any woman who does not want to sleep with them for any reason whatsoever.

 

I agree.

The dreaded "friend zone"... and yes if you are a guy about town whose sole purpose is to sleep with lots of women or to get a sex partner pretty quick, then wasting time being "friends" is a no-no and something to be avoided at all costs.

It is the cry of the bitter and the rejected men, "She friend-zoned me..."

 

But as you are 60, you are going to find many women looking for a real relationship who are going to want to be friends first in order to find out where you are coming from.

There is "I just want to be friends" (happy hanging out, happy to be a companion, happy to call, happy to text all night, BUT nothing else...)

and there is "I just want to be friends first" (I can see myself kissing and having sex with him, but I need to know what he is all about before I get in too deep...).

There will also be some who want a real relationship but who want sex too. They are after all of a generation who grew up with the Pill.

 

Yes, you are also going to come across women who just want sex, but I guess they still do not want to be seen as "sex objects"... unless that is their particular kink...

[nospam99]

Perhaps I don't understand whether it is possible to 'escape' a woman's friend zone.

 

The poster boy (albeit from fiction) and first place I heard the term (though not the kind of relationship I'm asking about) is Jorah Mormont, 'Sir Friendzone'. My understanding of the FEMALE friend zone based on reading posts here (granted this may not be a case of 'all women are like that') is - sleep with me before I lose patience or you will never be anything to me beyond a eunuch friend - no chance for a romantic relationship. By contrast, and this is MY male perspective, even if you never slept with me if at some point you become interested in a relationship with me I won't cut the possibility off. You can 'casually stroll' out of my friend zone simply by being interested. I'm 'reading' the characterization of the female behavior as requiring a guy to treat them as a sex object before the clock runs down in order for him to ever have a chance at a romantic relationship. What am I missing? Or is the answer simply 'NOT all women are like that'?

[somanymistakes]

Perhaps I don't understand whether it is possible to 'escape' a woman's friend zone.

 

The poster boy (albeit from fiction) and first place I heard the term (though not the kind of relationship I'm asking about) is Jorah Mormont, 'Sir Friendzone'. My understanding of the FEMALE friend zone based on reading posts here (granted this may not be a case of 'all women are like that') is - sleep with me before I lose patience or you will never be anything to me beyond a eunuch friend - no chance for a romantic relationship. By contrast, and this is MY male perspective, even if you never slept with me if at some point you become interested in a relationship with me I won't cut the possibility off. You can 'casually stroll' out of my friend zone simply by being interested. I'm 'reading' the characterization of the female behavior as requiring a guy to treat them as a sex object before the clock runs down in order for him to ever have a chance at a romantic relationship. What am I missing? Or is the answer simply 'NOT all women are like that'?

 

Please provide citations for where you are getting these ideas "based on reading posts here", since they are exactly contrary to the posts that are actually being directed at you, which you are apparently ignoring.

 

a) There's no such thing as "a woman's friend zone". People use the term "friend zone" to mean dozens of different things all conflated into one general complaint of "she wouldn't sleep with me". Please don't use this terminology because it makes it impossibly to explain what you actually mean.

 

b) have you ever actually seen a woman describe a man as a 'eunuch friend'??? or have you heard this ENTIRELY from about 3-5 male posters on this forum who go on constantly about things they learned from PUA courses?

 

c) many female posters here can provide examples of people that they were friends with first and later dated. The idea that women never date their friends is COMPLETE BULL*&^.

 

d) at the same time, many women will at some point in their lives have turned down a man because they were not interested in him and then they will be blamed for 'friendzoning' him. Unsurprisingly, after he WHINES and FUSSES about how dare this (rude word) refuse to sleep with him, his chances of ever dating her DO in fact become nil.

[nospam99]

Please provide citations for where you are getting these ideas "based on reading posts here", since they are exactly contrary to the posts that are actually being directed at you, which you are apparently ignoring.

 

Touche. There are a bunch of links to friend zone topics at the bottom of the page but they are all years old. My generalization is an impression (scary to me) I've gotten. I'll 'keep my eyes open' and post links to threads that foster my impression as I notice them.

b) have you ever actually seen a woman describe a man as a 'eunuch friend'??? or have you heard this ENTIRELY from about 3-5 male posters on this forum who go on constantly about things they learned from PUA courses?

 

Touche (maybe). I haven't kept 'score' carefully. And in addition to posts here, I do have several RL friends and online friends on other fora who have this complaint. It might just be few squeaky wheels complaining.

c) many female posters here can provide examples of people that they were friends with first and later dated. The idea that women never date their friends is COMPLETE BULL*&^.

 

The 'sense' that I've gotten (which you've already scored against) is NOT that women don't date friends, but that the friends can't become more than friends i.e. have been 'friend-zoned' if they wait 'too long' before initiating sex.

[road]

If a woman has the hots for a man she will

always be open to having a relationship and sex.

 

When a woman is neutral or has some interest in

a man she will go to no interest and see a man

as having no chance to date her if he fails to show

that he is attracted to her and wants to date her

in a timely fashion.

 

So they down grade his status from possible mate

to no way. So when the man decides to make a move

he will be a day late, a dollar short, or both, for the

woman will say no, let's just be friends.

 

Or I just see you as a friend. Either way she has just

delivered the kiss of death. Also known as being

firmly placed into the "friend zone".

 

Whether the woman says the "I just see you as a

friend". Or the man says that "she has friend zoned me"

after she turned him down does not matter.

 

He isn't going to get any.

[nospam99]

When a woman is neutral or has some interest in

a man she will go to no interest and see a man

as having no chance to date her if he fails to show

that he is attracted to her and wants to date her

in a timely fashion.

 

So they down grade his status from possible mate

to no way. So when the man decides to make a move

he will be a day late, a dollar short, or both, for the

woman will say no, let's just be friends.

 

Or I just see you as a friend. Either way she has just

delivered the kiss of death. Also known as being

firmly placed into the "friend zone".

 

Whether the woman says the "I just see you as a

friend". Or the man says that "she has friend zoned me"

after she turned him down does not matter.

 

He isn't going to get any.

 

somanymistakes, here is ONE example of the kind of posts that have created my impression of 'the friend zone'.

[basil67]

A guy gets into the friendzone because the girl he is interested in does not find him sexually attractive. He could be the nicest guy in the world and treat her like a queen, but if she doesn't wanna bang him, she isn't gonna want anything more than friends.

 

The men who escape the friend zone were never really in it; they were just friends. That attraction was likely always there (barring some physical transformation like a lot of weight loss or something) it was just never acted upon for whatever reason.

 

I mostly agree with this. A couple of bits not quite agree, but I'd be nitpicking to pull it apart.

 

Given all this talk of the friend zone, it seems that many men view friendship differently to women. Would it be fair to say that men see women as either worth dating or not worth bothering with at all? It's the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of understanding of us being OK with having a man as a friend. Not trying to pick a fight....genuinely curious as to why men see M/F friendships differently to women.

[nospam99]

Would it be fair to say that men see women as either worth dating or not worth bothering with at all? It's the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of understanding of us being OK with having a man as a friend. Not trying to pick a fight....genuinely curious as to why men see M/F friendships differently to women.

 

As a male, I can have a 'sister', 'mother', 'daughter', or 'pal' relationship with a woman that would not involve her having dating potential. It all depends on the circumstances. For example, I've never been an OM, so I consider the wives of friend-couples as my sisters. 'Mothers' and 'daughters' are so 'off-age' that I would not think of dating them. A female 'pal' would be a woman, not otherwise eliminated from my 'dating pool', who I did things I enjoyed doing with. Can't recall ever having one. FWIW, being the type of person I am, I can't recall any male pals since my 20s who weren't either married, divorced, or widowed either. To put it in the context of MY OP, yeah I friend-zone women with best example being the wives in couples I'm friends with. It has nothing to do with this disputed meme of 'prove you think of me as a sex object or I'll have no romantic interest in you'.

 

Contrast: I'm not looking for a dating partner to prove she thinks of me as a sex object, just as sexually desirable. The difference is between sex for its own sake and it doesn't have to happen but if/when it does it would be enjoyable. If I'm dating a woman who doesn't regard me as desirable, I'll phase her out and date someone else. If her feeling about my desirability changes, I'd date her again.

Edited December 29, 2017 by nospam99

[basil67]

To put it in the context of MY OP, yeah I friend-zone women with best example being the wives in couples I'm friends with. It has nothing to do with this disputed meme of 'prove you think of me as a sex object or I'll have no romantic interest in you'.

 

Yep, this is it exactly. I have no idea where the thing about "prove to me you think that I'm sexy" comes from. I guess it's the conjecture of cynical minds. If I'm into a guy, he doesn't have to prove he's into me.....I'll find out for myself. If I'm not into him, no amount of proving himself would make any difference.

 

Contrast: I'm not looking for a dating partner to prove she thinks of me as a sex object, just as sexually desirable. The difference is between sex for its own sake and it doesn't have to happen but if/when it does it would be enjoyable. If I'm dating a woman who doesn't regard me as desirable, I'll phase her out and date someone else. If her feeling about my desirability changes, I'd date her again.

 

This is it. Exactly. Woman to man....you've nailed it.

[elaine567]

"Sex object" is actually a derogatory term, so I am not sure why you keep repeating it as if most women want to be seen in that way.

 

When women view available men they ask the question "Can I kiss and have sex with this guy or not?

YES, maybe and NO WAY.

YES is self explanatory and so is NO WAY, but "maybe" guys can go both ways, so can become a YES or a definite NO.

 

Women can be friends with all three, and may treat them all in similar ways and hence I guess some of the confusion generated.

Guys I think can see the friendship as always a sign of something more, she is hanging out with me so she must want me, so I have a chance.

But if he is firmly in the NO category then he has no chance whatsoever.

 

That is why men need to make a move fairly early, to show their hand, as she will quite happily keep NO and "maybe" men as friends indefinitely, as she has no thoughts that they could possibly want her for more. The thought never really crosses her mind, as she knows that she would be unlikely to accept anyway. He is just a friend.

That is also why women get sore with men who "pretend" to be her friend, yet really want "more".

And men get sore with women who "string them along" as her friend.

 

Men really need to bite the bullet, and make their intentions known early doors, I do not mean wall to wall sex talk, d*ck pics and groping, I mean "Let's go on a proper date." If she says no, then so be it, at least he then knows.

I guess most men in the YES category, barring circumstances dictating otherwise, do not stay in the friend category for long...

[road]

I mostly agree with this. A couple of bits not quite agree, but I'd be nitpicking to pull it apart.

 

Given all this talk of the friend zone, it seems that many men view friendship differently to women. Would it be fair to say that men see women as either worth dating or not worth bothering with at all? It's the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of understanding of us being OK with having a man as a friend. Not trying to pick a fight....genuinely curious as to why men see M/F friendships differently to women.

 

Men have men friends. They share and do common interests,

hobbies, and recreational activities.

 

Men do not need women to do these common male activities.

 

Men do need women for mates.

 

So this is why men do not want a girl friend. They want and

need a girlfriend.

[road]

As a male, I can have a 'sister', 'mother', 'daughter', or 'pal' relationship with a woman that would not involve her having dating potential. It all depends on the circumstances. For example, I've never been an OM, so I consider the wives of friend-couples as my sisters. 'Mothers' and 'daughters' are so 'off-age' that I would not think of dating them. A female 'pal' would be a woman, not otherwise eliminated from my 'dating pool', who I did things I enjoyed doing with. Can't recall ever having one. FWIW, being the type of person I am, I can't recall any male pals since my 20s who weren't either married, divorced, or widowed either. To put it in the context of MY OP, yeah I friend-zone women with best example being the wives in couples I'm friends with. It has nothing to do with this disputed meme of 'prove you think of me as a sex object or I'll have no romantic interest in you'.

 

Contrast: I'm not looking for a dating partner to prove she thinks of me as a sex object, just as sexually desirable. The difference is between sex for its own sake and it doesn't have to happen but if/when it does it would be enjoyable. If I'm dating a woman who doesn't regard me as desirable, I'll phase her out and date someone else. If her feeling about my desirability changes, I'd date her again.

 

You are not friend zoning women.

 

You are maintaining proper boundaries with women

that you should not have a relationship with.

 

Such as the mothers of people you know.

Their daughters and wives as well.

Married women in general.

[preraph]

I grew up roughly the same time as you. You're missing the point. Women are either attracted to a guy right away or they're not. If they are but the guys proves himself a coward by not making his intentions known, women will move on. Not because they weren't physically attracted to him but because now they know he's a scaredycat, and that, my friend, is not attractive. That said, if a woman is attracted to you, you ought to be able to pick up on that if you are socially ept. I hope that's a word.

 

I think the point being, only a small, small percentage of women are going to be attracted to you to begin with. What you say or do won't change the tide unless you are already on the "maybe" list of what they instantaneously found something in you to be attracted to. The others are a write-off. Ain't going to happen.

 

Has nothing to do with objectification or wanting to be objectified. Has to do with if the guy has social skills or not once he has the green light. Confidence.

[preraph]

I'm not buying that you don't understand this.

 

Me neither. Unless he was living in a monastery, he lived through the same 60s and 70s I did, and women were not afraid back then to be sexual in the US, by the last half of the 60s (the advent of birth control and the not coincidental social revolution). There was so much sensuality back then.

[basil67]

Men have men friends. They share and do common interests,

hobbies, and recreational activities.

 

Men do not need women to do these common male activities.

 

Men do need women for mates.

 

So this is why men do not want a girl friend. They want and

need a girlfriend.

 

I appreciate your input. However, I know plenty of men who have female friends. Large, mixed gender groups who all socialise together. My husband and his mates have always been this way. I'm seeing the same again in my daughter and her mixed gender group of friends. So perhaps you shouldn't be speaking for men as a whole? It's more like some men like socialising with women and some men don't.

 

As your group is only men, I'm now wondering if you like women. I'm not referring to wanting a specific woman as a partner, but more about genuinely liking female company.

[Maggie4]

I'm a bit younger than the OP and even I remember back when the term "friendzone" did not exist. Yes I understand the term, but it is not really part of my vocabulary. I also know other terms like ghosting, etc.

 

But honestly, when it comes to my own dating life, none of that applies. No 30 year old "dating guru" is going to tell me what to do. No blogger is going to tell me the "rules" and "games".

 

I'm at a different stage in my life and, at some point, there are no more games, no more labels. I think the main reason for that is when people get real old, their eccentricities overwhelm everything else. They're set in their individual ways, as I am in mine.

 

I had a date last week with a gentleman who texts (slowly) pressing with his forefinger, not thumbs, ok? I cannot "friendzone" a man who insists no such zone exists!!

[nospam99]

somanymistakes, here is another thread contributing to my impression of what the 'friend zone' is all about http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/647307-have-i-been-friend-zoned Two in one day. Do I need to keep this up or do you understand where my impression is coming from?