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Non-traditional relationships and assoiciated stigma


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Old 25th October 2017, 9:53 AM   #16
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First, it seems like people these days are obsessed over relationship milestones. Maybe it's because millennials are the xbox generation and need to hit achievements regularly to feel like things are worthwhile. But I think that is where some of those expectations come from.

The flip side of that, is personally while I don't think all of those hard and fast rules are important. I'm a firm believer that the difference between a relationship and a fling is that after some time, in a relationship the two peoples live's start to merge. If after a few months of dating, you aren't meeting any friends or family, and all of your time together consists of 1-1 isolated time alone, that isn't really a relationship. You aren't sharing your lives, you are just chopping out a piece from your lives, and spending it together.

To me the relationship-fling difference is like living a full life somewhere vs. going on vacation. You can go somewhere for a really long vacation, but if all you are doing is laying on a beach, eating at restaurants every day, it's still really just a vacation and you don't even know if you like the day to day life of living in the place because you are avoiding it.

If you isolate your time with your partner indefinitely to just doing fun stuff together you aren't getting to know what they are like in real day to day life.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:01 AM   #17
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In the numerous types of relationships we can have I think there is one common element and that is both parties supply the relationship with their time, knowledge, wisdom etc.

In this case here, although you insist on calling it a 'relationship' I think it's missing a few elements to qualify as one.

Example: This 'relationship' only works when and if it fits him. There is no reciprocity, he cancels more often than he says 'yes' and a real yes. You cannot count on him or trust his words. You never know when he'll change his mind and pull the rug from underneath you.

So this relationship is more like him being on his pedestal and you dancing around that pedestal ready to catch the little crumbs he'll throw at you eventually. He's like the guru of a sect that you are drinking every words.

In my post #736 in your other thread I asked what animated him the most.

You replied with your post #738 and I quote <he's usually most positive when he has something to share about himself> We call that a conversational narcissist.

So let me ask you:

* Does he ever take interest in things you have to say?

* Does he ask you to elaborate on things you have interest in?

* What are you getting at all from him? What does he provide to you in this 'friendship'?
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:03 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RecentChange View Post
Non-traditional relationships?

I thought this was going to be about open / poly etc.

I am not aware of wide spread social stigma related to this one particular situation....
Open/poly count as well. The particular situation was just an example that provoked reaction. Not a bad reaction- just a misunderstanding I think.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:06 AM   #19
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I guess I'm still not appreciating the difference.

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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
Ah let me explain Clia : I was referring to ANY relationship that doesnít have defined outcome. E.g. sex (Ďromanceí), company (Ďfriendshipí), money (Ďbusinessí) etc.

Iím interested in anything that doesnít lead to a particular outcome /activity / event. E.g. having a friends to run with itís outcome based relationship (you go to run). I was more referring to entire domains - e.g. someone satisfying your intellectual curiosity or spiritual needs.
But why is satisfaction of intellectual curiosity or spiritual needs any less outcome based than, for example, satisfaction of fitness needs by way of running?

Quote:
Iíll give you examples outside of the guy in the thread:
1) A guy that was feeding a sexual need for me, via what Iíd call - a consensual rape. I created a situation from which I could not escape on purpose. This person wasnít my intellectual or spiritual mate but was feeding on a need that I had at the time: exploring my sexuality. It lasted 1.5 years and then subsided because he wanted a Ďtypicalí development
This seems no different to me than the running example. You were exploring your sexuality and using him to fulfill that need. I am exploring my health and fitness and using my friends who I run with to fulfill that need. Running with them pushes and challenges me in ways I can't do by myself and pushes me out of my comfort zone. That, in turn, can impact other parts of my life -- running relieves stress and anxiety, being pushed out of my comfort zone can make me more confident in general, etc.

Quote:
2) A guy that was feeding on my need to have an idol / muse. I was very well aware this will never morph into friendship let alone romance, I was personally facilitating his Ďromanticí pursuits. I needed him to gain perspective - he had a very strong one, about life, that I have used to build my own
I can't really grasp what this relationship was (which is fine), but again, I just don't see a difference. The need you describe here might be deeper, so to speak, but doesn't seem that different than befriending a person who has great style and trying to gain perspective and learn through them to dress better yourself.

Quote:
3) A woman in my family (direct relative but not parent/sibling) that I used as a role model for building my principles. We had a turmoil of an interaction that shaped me spiritually.
The result of the relationship, as well as the other relationships you mention above shaped you in some way, which is I see as totally normal. There's that old saying that people come into your life for a reason, season, or lifetime. We all interact with a wide variety of people and take things away from those interactions. Some good, some bad, some life changing. Many times we can't predict what we might learn from a person or experience with a person.

Maybe I'm just not getting it. I feel like I'm not getting it.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:10 AM   #20
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I love the bolded, it strikes me how people are excited when exclusivity is defined, ILY statements are exchanged etc. This is an unneccesary symbolism if real connection exists.

I also agree with your definition. I 'relationship' primarily based on fun/joy/goofiness/humor in the initial stages for me is non-existent. There is place for the above - AFTER the connection is formed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GunslingerRoland View Post
First, it seems like people these days are obsessed over relationship milestones. Maybe it's because millennials are the xbox generation and need to hit achievements regularly to feel like things are worthwhile. But I think that is where some of those expectations come from.

The flip side of that, is personally while I don't think all of those hard and fast rules are important. I'm a firm believer that the difference between a relationship and a fling is that after some time, in a relationship the two peoples live's start to merge. If after a few months of dating, you aren't meeting any friends or family, and all of your time together consists of 1-1 isolated time alone, that isn't really a relationship. You aren't sharing your lives, you are just chopping out a piece from your lives, and spending it together.

To me the relationship-fling difference is like living a full life somewhere vs. going on vacation. You can go somewhere for a really long vacation, but if all you are doing is laying on a beach, eating at restaurants every day, it's still really just a vacation and you don't even know if you like the day to day life of living in the place because you are avoiding it.

If you isolate your time with your partner indefinitely to just doing fun stuff together you aren't getting to know what they are like in real day to day life.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaeta View Post
In the numerous types of relationships we can have I think there is one common element and that is both parties supply the relationship with their time, knowledge, wisdom etc.

In this case here, although you insist on calling it a 'relationship' I think it's missing a few elements to qualify as one.

Example: This 'relationship' only works when and if it fits him. There is no reciprocity, he cancels more often than he says 'yes' and a real yes. You cannot count on him or trust his words. You never know when he'll change his mind and pull the rug from underneath you.

So this relationship is more like him being on his pedestal and you dancing around that pedestal ready to catch the little crumbs he'll throw at you eventually. He's like the guru of a sect that you are drinking every words.

In my post #736 in your other thread I asked what animated him the most.

You replied with your post #738 and I quote <he's usually most positive when he has something to share about himself> We call that a conversational narcissist.

So let me ask you:

* Does he ever take interest in things you have to say?

* Does he ask you to elaborate on things you have interest in?

* What are you getting at all from him? What does he provide to you in this 'friendship'?
Here we're not talking about narcissism - just living in his inner world more than turning to the outside one. It undeniably impresses me because I haven't mastered this myself - I'm still too dependent on external factors and quite likely will always be.

* Does he ever take interest in things you have to say? Very much so - and remembers details with surgical precision (not shocking because he writes down everything )

* Does he ask you to elaborate on things you have interest in? Again, very much so.

* What are you getting at all from him? What does he provide to you in this 'friendship'? A muse I guess. A reflection of what I was in my past before I 'corrupted myself' with prosaic stuff...
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:22 AM   #22
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Your points are solid.

I guess the only difference is that these people has taken me to directions I would not go myself. I could be confusing myself as well. I'll get back to it later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clia View Post
I guess I'm still not appreciating the difference.



But why is satisfaction of intellectual curiosity or spiritual needs any less outcome based than, for example, satisfaction of fitness needs by way of running?



This seems no different to me than the running example. You were exploring your sexuality and using him to fulfill that need. I am exploring my health and fitness and using my friends who I run with to fulfill that need. Running with them pushes and challenges me in ways I can't do by myself and pushes me out of my comfort zone. That, in turn, can impact other parts of my life -- running relieves stress and anxiety, being pushed out of my comfort zone can make me more confident in general, etc.



I can't really grasp what this relationship was (which is fine), but again, I just don't see a difference. The need you describe here might be deeper, so to speak, but doesn't seem that different than befriending a person who has great style and trying to gain perspective and learn through them to dress better yourself.



The result of the relationship, as well as the other relationships you mention above shaped you in some way, which is I see as totally normal. There's that old saying that people come into your life for a reason, season, or lifetime. We all interact with a wide variety of people and take things away from those interactions. Some good, some bad, some life changing. Many times we can't predict what we might learn from a person or experience with a person.

Maybe I'm just not getting it. I feel like I'm not getting it.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:24 AM   #23
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I saw no rage in your other thread. If you perceived rage, you were perhaps feeling defensive. I apologize if I contributed to that feeling.

As to this one: you're intellectualizing too much to be convincing. Relax. Focus on yourself and your well-being instead of trying to convince internet strangers of the validity of your actions.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
I saw no rage in your other thread. If you perceived rage, you were perhaps feeling defensive. I apologize if I contributed to that feeling.

As to this one: you're intellectualizing too much to be convincing. Relax. Focus on yourself and your well-being instead of trying to convince internet strangers of the validity of your actions.
I was loving it but as you saw it got closed

If anything the whole discussion invigorated me big time. Iím not convincing strangers - Iím convincing myself through the discussion here and elsewhere.

One thing Iíd say: Iím incredibly grateful I am capable again to experience wide amplitudes of emotions, I was very concerned this is over for me because of aging. Thatís why I was ok with settling into Ďtraditionalí lifestyle in the past years...
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:38 AM   #25
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I think it was Judge Judy who said

"Women do stupid things when they're in love. That's why I've been in business for so long"


No one would really care if you declared your undying love to a garden gnome, but when you put something on a forum, and nothing really makes much sense, then it's human nature that people are going to pick it apart...

And I've heard you mention several times about wanting kids...Whether you think it or not, freeze eggs or not, as someone who's walked that walk, you are at the age where you better make it happen soon..very soon....And no, I don't believe it's proper to just find a sperm donor and go about it on your own...It's better for the child to have a mother and a father...So if those are your goals, why waste time(that you don't have that much of) with something that won't truly fulfill your life goals??

Just some thoughts..

TFY
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:43 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
I was loving it but as you saw it got closed

If anything the whole discussion invigorated me big time. I’m not convincing strangers - I’m convincing myself through the discussion here and elsewhere.

One thing I’d say: I’m incredibly grateful I am capable again to experience wide amplitudes of emotions, I was very concerned this is over for me because of aging. That’s why I was ok with settling into ‘traditional’ lifestyle in the past years...
Goodness, My grandfather fell in love at the age of 72. I'm glad you're allowing yourself to experience these emotions. Just believe me when I say: they are perhaps rare, but they aren't as rare as you seem to believe it is.

The only difference is that, as you get older, the chance that you meet a single guy for whom you feel this who also happens to be single will get fewer and far between. Finding someone where the feeling is mutual is, as I have said, amazing. I think that's what everyone here wishes for you. It would be great if you could acknowledge that.

You said on your other thread that you remain open to dating others. Great. So how much of your headspace is your platonic friend taking? How often do you think about him? Does that leave room for others?
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:47 AM   #27
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undying love to a garden gnome

Yeah, the kid factor is serious. I think for better or worse, there is no way to happen naturally at this point. I'm almost 33. Meeting a man today shoots me at 35 for start of pregnancy attempts. Time is already out.

I'd NOT go for the donor's route. Mother+father are necessary IMO as well. I'll just buy a couple of years by egg freezing and then settle with someone who I think is fit for father's duties at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefooloftheyear View Post
I think it was Judge Judy who said

"Women do stupid things when they're in love. That's why I've been in business for so long"


No one would really care if you declared your undying love to a garden gnome, but when you put something on a forum, and nothing really makes much sense, then it's human nature that people are going to pick it apart...

And I've heard you mention several times about wanting kids...Whether you think it or not, freeze eggs or not, as someone who's walked that walk, you are at the age where you better make it happen soon..very soon....And no, I don't believe it's proper to just find a sperm donor and go about it on your own...It's better for the child to have a mother and a father...So if those are your goals, why waste time(that you don't have that much of) with something that won't truly fulfill your life goals??

Just some thoughts..

TFY
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:54 AM   #28
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Yeah I think it is not aging in a sense I've passed the upper treshold (as you said there is no upper one) but aging in a sense that I entered the saddest decade in creative sense - the 30s - I started feeling the inevitable peer pressure to date/mate/pop babies etc. I'm almost thinking to get this out of the way by settling with someone who's okay and leave the strong emotions for later (happier) decades.

So yeah, I'm screening 2 dating sites for a settling mate (and juggling few orbiting dudes that I may reconsider) even if my mind is elsewhere. That's good, no? I can even make a thread how happy I am building life with my settling mate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamille View Post
Goodness, My grandfather fell in love at the age of 72. I'm glad you're allowing yourself to experience these emotions. Just believe me when I say: they are perhaps rare, but they aren't as rare as you seem to believe it is.

The only difference is that, as you get older, the chance that you meet a single guy for whom you feel this who also happens to be single will get fewer and far between. Finding someone where the feeling is mutual is, as I have said, amazing. I think that's what everyone here wishes for you. It would be great if you could acknowledge that.

You said on your other thread that you remain open to dating others. Great. So how much of your headspace is your platonic friend taking? How often do you think about him? Does that leave room for others?
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Old 25th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #29
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Yeah I think it is not aging in a sense I've passed the upper treshold (as you said there is no upper one) but aging in a sense that I entered the saddest decade in creative sense - the 30s - I started feeling the inevitable peer pressure to date/mate/pop babies etc. I'm almost thinking to get this out of the way by settling with someone who's okay and leave the strong emotions for later (happier) decades.

So yeah, I'm screening 2 dating sites for a settling mate (and juggling few orbiting dudes that I may reconsider) even if my mind is elsewhere. That's good, no? I can even make a thread how happy I am building life with my settling mate


Admit it. You're being purposefully obtuse.

Why is it easier for you to turn caring advice into a joke? What's so scary about hearing us out that you find ways and strategies to dismiss it?

Do you think of yourself as so outside the norm that no one here can possibly offer advice that could help you in achieving your own stated goals?

Last edited by Kamille; 25th October 2017 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 25th October 2017, 11:07 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Kamille View Post


Admit it. You're being purposefully obtuse.

Why is it easier for you to turn caring advice into a joke? What's scary about hearing us out?
Admitted

It is only scary because Iím afraid to get into the 2 year comatose relationship that I had with my ex (which I did because of social acceptance - hey, I was 30 already). The thing is I donít really want to go on dates (ie Iíll go on a date if and only if Iím convinced I see potential in the guy) so I should find a way to preselect a man that inspires me in some other way...
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