Predictors of infidelity - thoughts?

[Birdies]

I put this in a different thread, but it's an interesting topic that I thought warranted its own discussion. []

 

I came across an interesting study. It perhaps explains why many men here are so quick to dismiss the practically-universal analysis of married women who had an affair: that while we recognize our affairs were 100% our own decision and therefore our own fault, we also recognize that they were a symptom of unhappiness in our marriages and it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

 

"There are some personality traits known to be associated with cheating. A report in The Archives of Sexual Behavior found that two traits predicted risk for infidelity in men. Men who are easily aroused (called “propensity for sexual excitation”) and men who are overly concerned about sexual performance failure are more likely to cheat. The finding comes from a study of nearly 1,000 men and women. In the sample, 23 percent of men and 19 percent of women reported ever cheating on a partner."

"For women, the main predictors of infidelity were relationship happiness (women who aren’t happy in their partnership are twice as likely to cheat) and being sexually out-of-sync with their partner (a situation that makes women three times as likely to cheat as women who feel sexually compatible with their partners)."

 

From the recent article "How to have a better relationship" in the New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/guides/well/...6&kwp_1=838604

 

So to summarize: in general, men cheat due to their own propensities or insecurities. In general, women cheat in response to the quality of their marriage and sex life. No wonder they dismiss our take on it - they can't relate, so it must be wrong.

 

Note: no one here thinks that affairs are the fault of the marriage or of the betrayed spouse, and that's not what this post is implying - so I ask in advance, please don't put words in my mouth. I'm interested in the gender differences between the motivation and predictors for an affair.

 

This is definitely applicable for my MM and me. I was feeling unhappy, neglected, unloved, and sexually mismatched in my marriage. My MM's marriage led him to deep feelings of sexual performance failure (it's hard to feel like your satisfying your wife in a sexless marriage). The "propensity for sexual arousal" part did make us laugh - aren't all men that way?!

Edited October 21, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Move topic to GRD and redact off-topic content

[Almond_Joy]

This is an interesting study.

 

It doesn't quite seem to line up with most of the stories I've read around here for men. I mean the insecurity element may be factoring in surely, but a lot of men seem to stray because they are unhappy with their relationship - their wife isn't giving them the amount of attention they want, or the wife won't do certain sex things or maybe not do sex at all, those kinds of things.

[coolheadal]

I've been with two MW, one was MWS and the other was MWD.. They both still cheat on their MM. The only reason I have notice is they feel cheated from their cheating husbands. The divorce one couldn't wait to cheat and dated a lot of me she was married for almost 40 years. The husband didn't want to get a divorce. Messy the other one the husband cheated with a few women had 9 kids including 3 of hers. But your study only shows what they think is the cause of cheating. Frankly if they want to cheat they're going to do it no matter what they tell you. i am single I can do whatever I want but I am not going to sleep or have sex with married woman it's just wrong. I don't care if they love me so much get the dam divorce then. Excuse they don't have the money. Really you have the money to buy a brand new large SUV.

[somanymistakes]

This is an interesting study.

 

It doesn't quite seem to line up with most of the stories I've read around here for men. I mean the insecurity element may be factoring in surely, but a lot of men seem to stray because they are unhappy with their relationship - their wife isn't giving them the amount of attention they want, or the wife won't do certain sex things or maybe not do sex at all, those kinds of things.

 

grain of salt because my post is totally theory with no evidence to back it but:

 

That difference might be because the forum is a self-selecting audience, and posting is a kind of performance.

 

Pretend for a moment that 90% of men cheat because they are just ravenous horndogs who want sex all the time, and 10% because they are unhappy in their current relationship. How many people are going to come here and post "Yo, my wife is mad at me because I had sex with ten other women last week"? Why would they even bother posting that? Nobody here is going to be on their side, telling them how hard they have it. Whereas guys who can tell a story of "oh, my marriage is loveless, we only have sex once a year, I'm so alone" are going to get a much better response. They're still going to get a kick up the butt if they're cheating, but they're at least going to get some sympathy and suggestions.

 

So even if the numbers were 90%/10% that would likely NOT be the percentages that we would actually see here on loveshack.

 

There are a few male posters who talk about having been that kind of guy, who would say anything just to get laid, even if the marriage at home was fine, just to get laid more. And there are some pro-adultery forums where, again, guys talk about being that kind of guy and help each other out with plans and strategies to get as much sex as possible and hide it from their wives. But we're not going to get a lot of those people here.

 

The nature of any sample population can really affect the data you get from it.

[Almond_Joy]

grain of salt because my post is totally theory with no evidence to back it but:

 

That difference might be because the forum is a self-selecting audience, and posting is a kind of performance.

 

Pretend for a moment that 90% of men cheat because they are just ravenous horndogs who want sex all the time, and 10% because they are unhappy in their current relationship. How many people are going to come here and post "Yo, my wife is mad at me because I had sex with ten other women last week"? Why would they even bother posting that? Nobody here is going to be on their side, telling them how hard they have it. Whereas guys who can tell a story of "oh, my marriage is loveless, we only have sex once a year, I'm so alone" are going to get a much better response. They're still going to get a kick up the butt if they're cheating, but they're at least going to get some sympathy and suggestions.

 

So even if the numbers were 90%/10% that would likely NOT be the percentages that we would actually see here on loveshack.

 

There are a few male posters who talk about having been that kind of guy, who would say anything just to get laid, even if the marriage at home was fine, just to get laid more. And there are some pro-adultery forums where, again, guys talk about being that kind of guy and help each other out with plans and strategies to get as much sex as possible and hide it from their wives. But we're not going to get a lot of those people here.

 

The nature of any sample population can really affect the data you get from it.

 

 

Yeah, all good points.

 

Now I'm wondering about how the study was conducted. I guess if they did an anonymous survey there's no need to perform as there's no other person the men would have to consider in terms of how they'll be perceived.

 

I'd also wonder about the number of men that come to a forum like this vs number of users of the forums you mentioned as the size of the sample body should be considered too. There's probably several times over the number of users in the forums you mentioned than in this one

[Birdies]

I generally think that studies like the one cited can be trusted more than our own general anecdotal impressions, because 1) they are conducted by people with rigorous statistical backgrounds, 2) the sample sizes are generally quite large so as to get a larger amount of statistical power (1,000 respondents in this study), and 3) they are peer-reviewed before being published in a scientific journal, and having gone through the peer-review process myself, I can tell you it's BRUTAL and reviewers live to pick apart any flaw in the study that they can find!

 

Like somanymistakes said, whether the sample group is self-selecting or not would also make a difference. I agree that men who cheat because because they can / are horny as the study suggests, would seem to be less likely to come online here and self-analyze.

[carhill]

My anecdotes with many MW's over the decades appear to line up pretty well with the study, presuming of course they weren't lying about their relationships. I can't recall one who opined they were just horny and/or wanted some sexual variety. Some indeed left their M's. Some remained. One, so far anyway, died after fallout from her A and other factors ended her M.

 

As far as 'predictors', my experience has been all over the place. No real rhyme or reason or commonality that I can discern. Some were unsurprising. Some shocking. If I had to form a prediction I'd say I have, generally, none, with the only exception being serial/concurrent infidelity, meaning a person who has multiple affairs running at the same time or consecutive affairs or a pattern of them over time.

 

No guarantees in life save for death. Can't read minds. Just roll with what comes our way and try to establish healthy relationship boundaries.

[DKT3]

Birdie, why someone cheats and what lacking character traits they have to actually go through with it are not actually the same thing. This study basically only shows why women are unhappy in the marriage. But let's be honest, most woman, I would even dare to say that all married women at some point feel unhappy, unsatisfied, unlove with or by Thier husband. The question is why most NOT cheat in those situations.

 

It's easy to say I cheated for these reason, but the question that needs to be answered is why is my cheating actually the major minority of women in my situation? What other factors lead to being unfaithful.

 

Truth is those OTHER factors is why a wayward wife is wayward. 8.5/10 won't cheat, my guess is were one to sit down with the 1.5/10 that will we would find other common factors that set them apart.

[elaine567]

But let's be honest, most woman, I would even dare to say that all married women at some point feel unhappy, unsatisfied, unlove with or by Thier husband. The question is why most NOT cheat in those situations.

Maybe it has to do with the degree of unhappiness or sexual incompatibility and I guess the threshold for cheating is different for individual women.

Maybe some women just do not reach their tipping point, so stay faithful.

[Birdies]

Birdie, why someone cheats and what lacking character traits they have to actually go through with it are not actually the same thing. This study basically only shows why women are unhappy in the marriage. But let's be honest, most woman, I would even dare to say that all married women at some point feel unhappy, unsatisfied, unlove with or by Thier husband. The question is why most NOT cheat in those situations.

 

It's easy to say I cheated for these reason, but the question that needs to be answered is why is my cheating actually the major minority of women in my situation? What other factors lead to being unfaithful.

 

Truth is those OTHER factors is why a wayward wife is wayward. 8.5/10 won't cheat, my guess is were one to sit down with the 1.5/10 that will we would find other common factors that set them apart.

 

Oh definitely. In my case it was due to my weak boundaries and situations that created the opportunity for an emotional connection to form, and then a selfish sense of entitlement based on a false equivalency ("my husband isn't doing x, y, and z, so I get to not be faithful for a little while in return"), and an incorrect assumption that he and I would always be together (since we had practically since childhood) no matter what. I'm sure all of us have our own particular whys, and hopefully Mm and Mw alike are working to identify them.

 

That's not really what this post is about though.

[Birdies]

Maybe it has to do with the degree of unhappiness or sexual incompatibility and I guess the threshold for cheating is different for individual women.

Maybe some women just do not reach their tipping point, so stay faithful.

 

I think a huge part of it is circumstantial too. I had never crossed any kind of line before, despite being hit on by a lot of male friends and colleagues for my whole lifetime. This particular connection with this particular person, combined with the particular low point for me emotionally in my life, created the perfect storm (but one which clearly I could and should have avoided).

[QuestioningSoul]

Studies are interesting to me too, but I take it with a grain of salt. Everyone is different and sometimes the reasons why we do things aren't even clear to us or it's something we don't want to face.

 

I've known quite a few cheaters, and the women did say unhappiness at home and self esteem issues were the reason. The two specific women that come to mind became my WHs APs. Now I see it's usually waaaay deeper than that but those were their first "whys".

 

The men I know that have cheated wanted more sexual contact and to alleviate boredom, and one I know just loved getting one over on his wife. They weren't looking for a legitimate relationship, just excitement and to break up the daily grind. Again, just what I've personally seen.

 

Now, since I've been cheated on, I can imagine doing it myself. Imagine. Because I'm hurt. My reasons would be a combination of them both. I'm deeply unhappy at the moment in my relationship, my self esteem has plummeted because I think something is wrong with me, and I want to break up the monotony of life and would absolutely love to have some mind blowing, dirty sex that makes me daydream about it the next day.

 

But I don't want to cheat. I just want to learn from this and either resolve our issues and grow, or split up and be single and pursue the other life I can clearly imagine. Oh boy can I.

 

I think why we do things is fascinating but it's never just what we think on the surface.

[Southern Sun]

Well, this is interesting for me, because I've posted this very thing as being the major factor in what I believe made me vulnerable.

 

My marriage was "okay" but we were not connected sexually. And it wasn't due to my unwillingness...this primarily fell to my H. So not only did I feel disconnected, but I felt that the only person who had any control over it was not going to address it. This was disheartening, as well as wholly unattractive. And I felt alone.

 

But to DKT's point...I still chose to cheat, in response to my unhappiness, whereas other women might not have in that same situation. There is correlation and there is causation. I do think being sexually incompatible in the R is correlated to a woman being vulnerable to infidelity. But I also think it takes the addition of other circumstances to actually push it over the edge (for the average woman) - right place, right time, so to speak. Just like Birdie, I had many opportunities over the years that I didn't consider at all. But suddenly, due to amount of time with this man, proximity to him, stage of life, whatever was going on in my M and the length of time it had been happening, and who knows what else...I gave myself permission to move the affair forward.

 

IF my marriage had been strong on the physical front, I just can't imagine I would have been as open to my AP's advances, or put myself in the situations I did with him. Not that we are never attracted to another person, of course. But that's a far cry from allowing yourself to become emotionally engaged with another, to the point that you move things along physically. If I were bonded to my husband with mutual attachment, caring, and sexual attraction...I don't believe I would put myself in harm's way like that. But I just didn't have that FEELING.

 

And unfortunately, I didn't have another voice in my head telling me to stop just because it was WRONG. Well, I did, but the voice telling me to proceed was louder, I guess.

[Mysterio]

I got involved with a woman that was married. She pursued me. I resisted and it mixed me up. She was doing this to her Hubs for a long time and did it after and then she decided to get divorced a year after her and I called the so called friendship quits.

 

She was doing it because she was narcisistic. Thats what I think.

 

Bottom line is that needs are not met. There are some core needs over a lifetime that need to be met and if not. Thats where things go off the rails.

 

For me personally. I need a lot of physical affection and being treated well, to thrive in a relationship. I won't cheat. I would end it before anything like that happens. Now a days people are in such a rush to make things happen that we don't know how to let things gel. Its like working with someone. The chemistry should be there after a while. Not one day your fighting. The next day your chill.

 

When I hear couples with that break up or whatever. Its always the typical thing. Man wants more sex or all the time. The woman does not want it that much.

 

Funny. If they break up. She is not going to meet another man with a low sex drive. Hate to say it. Most couples that are getting together its the physical thats the draw first. So its better to at least dress well/be fit than not.

[Cookiesandough]

Men usually cheat if their male role model figure cheated or was absent.

[Steve51]

It is well known that guys cheat for the sex and women for emotional reasons. Guys will get aroused and their little head does all their thinking for them. I have been with married women many decades ago, and the reasons I heard were that their husbands took them for granted, did not make them feel desirable, sexy or attractive. They no longer took them out for dinner or dancing. They were just there to take care of the house and kids while providing sex upon demand to a husband who thought sex was over after his orgasm. Men do not view cheating as bad as women do. For them it is just sex, not love or passion. Women cheat to fill emotional needs so the view cheating much differently than men do.

 

All spouses lie. It could be simply about buying a pair of shoes or something larger, but they all lie. You are never going to hear 100% of the truth. Try telling your wife that yes she does look fat in that dress. The real problem is that monogamy forces you to expect that your spouse will fulfill all of your needs and will continue to behave as he/she did during the romance love period that existed during the courtship. Obviously the divorce and cheating rates prove that monogamy/marriage do not work well. Anyone defending it will sound like the president of an airline trying to tell you how good they are because only half of their planes crash.

 

I’ve seen how the whole monogamy lockdown breeds an almost viral tendency to take the other person for granted, to have huge expectations, and to deliver this all from a sense of duty and obligation — without a thank you! Monogamy served a very important purpose to bring social order to mankind but it outdated these days. My wife and I have had a wonderful 45 year marriage in a non monogamous marriage. We did not go looking for sex partners but sex with someone else was not a deal killer as long as it was the exception and not the rule. Mostly we lived a polyfidelitous triad with a woman we both loved and knew since we were kids. I could never dream of such a wonderful life in and out of the bedroom. Two of us was able to fulfill the needs of the other that they could not fulfill for each other. No way was my wife going to gain 50 IQ points or I was to think emotionally and have a vagina.

 

Cheating and divorce is commonplace and people are mostly serially monogamous, first destroying the life they built with their spouse before going on to the next one. I always thought it was crazy that the moral thing to do was to divorce and hate each other in the process, displace the kids, split your assets and pay attorneys for the legal work plus alimony, etc., before you can morally have sex with another woman. Why can't you still lover your wife and have sex with someone else without a divorce? The answer is because that is how we were taught since childhood. Having sex outside of marriage is the greatest sin in a marriage, even more so than treating your wife badly, neglecting her needs emotionally and sexually, etc.. Even the writers of the bible who started this line of thought, had concubines in addition to their one wife. Men throughout history have had mistresses and the monogamy thing was mostly to keep women from straying because men did not want to use their limited resources supporting a kid who does not carry their genes (blood line).

 

I found that you can identify cheaters by how often they make excuses for not being with you. Out with the boys/girls, working late a few nights each week, getting mad if you try to dig deeper into their lives, new lingerie/perfume, going to the gym all of a sudden, and a host of other activities out of the norm. Heck, I caught my ex fiancé cheating from the other side of the world. I never trust anyone 100%, not even a girl I loved for 5 years and committed to marry me. I had spies. All of my bosses throughout 47 years, even the females, cheated on their spouses. I knew because I travelled with them and they had their lovers meet them in whatever city or country we were in. Despite living in a poly triad, I still do not approve of cheating. OK with sex with others as long as it is OK with your spouse, as it was with us, but no sneaking around.

 

What I found was that it was easiest for men and women to cheat when their spouses trusted them 100% and accepted what they were told and never would dream of asking for the password to computers or smart phones. My wife had sex with one other guy than me during a wife swap which she agreed to my surprise. She hated it, got bruises and did not orgasm. No more other men for her. Despite that, I still check her iPhone and laptop.

 

We both knew each other's passwords and track each other with our iPhones. We do not suspect each other of anything in our old age and with medical problems but it always is a good idea to have a healthy dose of mistrust, not a lot, just a healthy dose. She goes out three nights a week with her 70+ year old girlfriends to play cards, Mahjong and Bingo. My wife did not tell me that a few husbands played with them and were sometimes her partner over the last 5 years. That is how we ended up in a wife swap decades ago. It was my wife's card playing partner who asked. I only found out in an email she received about husbands playing with them and when I asked her, she told the truth. I asked her why she never invited me and she said that she knew I would not like the games they played. Never trust anyone 100%. Many people like attention from the opposite sex and sometimes that can turn into someone much more.

Rethinking monogamy today - CNN

Edited October 21, 2017 by Steve51

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Birdies,

 

Yes, the article totally resonated with me. It's no excuse but years of being sexually out of sync with my H definitely led me to my A. At first I assumed it must be the same for my XMM and I was kind of shocked to discover he had a good sex life with his wife and that definitely wasn't a contributing factor to him having an A.

 

For him, it was opportunity. We worked together (and yes he was VERY easily aroused!!) and one thing led to another. Nothing to do with him being unsatisfied with his marriage but everything to do with me feeling unsatisfied in mine!

 

That's why afterwards, it was easy for him to move on. He could return to his happy life and lose the guilt and stress of the A. For me, I was still in an unhappy marriage, so a lot harder for me to let go and move on from it. And the reasons why I escaped into an A were still there for me to deal with when the bubble of the A finally burst!

[DKT3]

People like to refer to studies like this one because it absolves them of responsibility. I didn't cheat because my morals are easily compromised, I cheated because she didn't give me enough bj's or he didn't buy me flowers often. They'd rather victim blame their spouse than admit they screwed up.

 

 

 

Yes, this...the reasons given are only reasons why one is unhappy in a marriage but has absolutely nothing to do with the choice to cheat, I believe this is where many wayward spouses have a hard time "getting it".

 

It's understandable, I mean it's hard to admit to yourself that you are flawed and capable of doing horrible things.

 

With that being said, other factors at play..for instance, most women are the primary caregiver of the marriage, so once they have betrayed the marriage the only way they can explain it to themselves is by making it appear to be either out of thier control (oh the connection with OM is amazing, like nothing ever before) or that they have exhausted all possible other avenues (I was faithful for years and never considered cheating). Well it's all bull, first off boundaries were crossed and the marriage was betrayed long before they formed any significant connection. Secondly, your still married so clearly all avenues were not exhausted to resolve in a healthy manner.

 

Affairs don't happen because anything the BS did short of placing the order person in the bed with the spouse. They happen because the WS is selfish, entitled, lack respect and simply wanted to cheat.

[elaine567]

I have a feeling that one size does not fit all.

 

Yes, there are people who are born cheaters and who couldn't be faithful long term if they tried and at the other end of the spectrum, others who after years of non affection, loneliness and/or hell from their spouses capitulate to the only man/woman who has shown them any attention for a long time or even forever...

Some are in it for short/long term gratification, excitement, fantasy, or a relief from boredom perhaps, and others are seriously trying to find a more suitable substitute for their spouse or trying to fill a void that their spouse cannot fill.

[Birdies]

Look, the point of the thread and of the research is not, why do some people cheat and some don't? Because they're selfish cruel jerks who don't care about anyone else etc etc etc. That's all well and good, and I guarantee that most if not all cheaters recognize that about themselves. So the old tiresome dead horse doesn't need to be continued to be beaten here.

 

The question here is very different. OF people who cheat (who we have ALREADY identified as people with weak boundaries, selfish decision making, something broken inside them, etc) - what are the most consistent similarities among them and their situations? How do those differ by gender? Do the findings of this study seem to apply to people who have personal experience in the matter?

 

If you don't want to respond to those ideas, you are welcome to start a thread about how selfish cheaters are and how you are so much better a person and all that

[DKT3]

I have a feeling that one size does not fit all.

 

Yes, there are people who are born cheaters and who couldn't be faithful long term if they tried and at the other end of the spectrum, others who after years of non affection, loneliness and/or hell from their spouses capitulate to the only man/woman who has shown them any attention for a long time or even forever...

Some are in it for short/long term gratification, excitement, fantasy, or a relief from boredom perhaps, and others are seriously trying to find a more suitable substitute for their spouse or trying to fill a void that their spouse cannot fill.

 

There are all types of vehicles in the world, yet every single one has the exact same needs to run. Just like vehicles, all affairs need the exact same things needed to run selfishness, entitlement and a lack of respect. Everything elses is just justification or excuses. People love to say it's not black and white, but really it is. You have a healthy way and an unhealthy way. Oh if I divorced it would hurt the kids...so having an affair then ultimately ending up divorced is a better option or less painful? Or having an affair then spending the next 5years working on saving the Marriage doesn't hurt the kids? At least one way is healthy and sets the example of how to deal with the situation, none will be painless.

 

I'm lonely, sex deprived, ignored whatever has no bearing on the decision to cheat, it's completely independent. Now I completely understand those things make it more likely that cheating will happen, but it's not why the cheating happened.

[DKT3]

Look, the point of the thread and of the research is not, why do some people cheat and some don't? Because they're selfish cruel jerks who don't care about anyone else etc etc etc. That's all well and good, and I guarantee that most if not all cheaters recognize that about themselves. So the old tiresome dead horse doesn't need to be continued to be beaten here.

 

The question here is very different. OF people who cheat (who we have ALREADY identified as people with weak boundaries, selfish decision making, something broken inside them, etc) - what are the most consistent similarities among them and their situations? How do those differ by gender? Do the findings of this study seem to apply to people who have personal experience in the matter?

 

If you don't want to respond to those ideas, you are welcome to start a thread about how selfish cheaters are and how you are so much better a person and all that

 

It's all one in the same Birdie.....

 

I will say I think it's different along gender because in general men don't have to lessen his relationship with the wife to engage in an affair. So they tend to not justify as much, as an extension they don't convince themselves that the marriage is worst then maybe it actually was. Or that the connection with OW was out of this world.

Edited October 22, 2017 by DKT3

[Birdies]

It's all one in the same Birdie.....

 

I will say I think it's different along gender because in general men don't have to lessen his relationship with the wife to engage in an affair. So they tend to not justify as much, as an extension they don't convince themselves that the marriage is worst then maybe it actually was. Or that the connection with OW was out of this world.

 

You are so dismissive of women's experiences. I think you still have some things to work out with regard to your wife cheating. Are you in IC?

[DKT3]

You are so dismissive of women's experiences. I think you still have some things to work out with regard to your wife cheating. Are you in IC?

 

Haha, you should read my posts to MM on the rare occasion they post here.

 

It's easy huh? To attack then to actually absorb the message. My issues there are over, 1) I divorced her, being together now is a choice I made with full knowledge of who she really is all of her. 2) we both acknowledge our role in what the marriage had become. 3) she fully admitted she chose to cheat without qualifiers 4) I understand that I didn't make her decision to cheat all that difficult.

 

Each of us except our responsibility without excuses. This has allowed us to grow individually and as a couple and family.

 

Not at all dismissive of women, only excuses.

[Cookiesandough]

Look, the point of the thread and of the research is not, why do some people cheat and some don't? Because they're selfish cruel jerks who don't care about anyone else etc etc etc. That's all well and good, and I guarantee that most if not all cheaters recognize that about themselves. So the old tiresome dead horse doesn't need to be continued to be beaten here.

 

The question here is very different. OF people who cheat (who we have ALREADY identified as people with weak boundaries, selfish decision making, something broken inside them, etc) - what are the most consistent similarities among them and their situations? How do those differ by gender? Do the findings of this study seem to apply to people who have personal experience in the matter?

 

If you don't want to respond to those ideas, you are welcome to start a thread about how selfish cheaters are and how you are so much better a person and all that

 

Morals are pretty much learned behavior. So usually it can be traced back to family of origin