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Old 1st October 2017, 6:21 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
In a nutshell, over the past few decades, the traditional relationship exchange has broken down. It used to be that men and women each had something the other really needed. Men needed access to sex. Women needed access to resources. Men couldn't get steady access to sex unless they had resources to offer, so they worked hard for them. The partnership between men and women was a grand bargain that (usually) left both sides better off.

Ok, removing the genders from this:
1) one partner provides resources / financial support
2) the other provides steady sex
3) both need each other to reproduce

So what's wrong with female taking role 1), the male role 2) for her, and both - 3)? Same dynamics, just genders are not as in your description. There are many women with resources and high sex drive that will thrive in this 'traditional' arrangements with roles reversed.

Lets see....

how about the fact that you simply cannot erase biology. Some times I crack an egg and find two yokes. So what? Who cares about the outliers. We are talking about the majority. Many men will not feel comfortable being with a woman that is a bread winner because you will take away his sense of purpose and his sense of protecting the family. You leave him with nothing..

Because women are now out graduating men and in return they want a man of equal or higher caliber... so basically now they are "over qualified" to find a man. So a small fraction of the United States population may have a successful long-term relationship where the women is the bread-winner on the flip side the amount of women who are single who cannot find a "good man" is increasing steadily.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...loK/story.html


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As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.

https://theblog.okcupid.com/your-loo...x-8715c0f1561e

Last edited by Sweetfish; 1st October 2017 at 6:35 PM..
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Old 1st October 2017, 9:14 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
In a nutshell, over the past few decades, the traditional relationship exchange has broken down. It used to be that men and women each had something the other really needed. Men needed access to sex. Women needed access to resources. Men couldn't get steady access to sex unless they had resources to offer, so they worked hard for them. The partnership between men and women was a grand bargain that (usually) left both sides better off.

Ok, removing the genders from this:
1) one partner provides resources / financial support
2) the other provides steady sex
3) both need each other to reproduce

So what's wrong with female taking role 1), the male role 2) for her, and both - 3)? Same dynamics, just genders are not as in your description. There are many women with resources and high sex drive that will thrive in this 'traditional' arrangements with roles reversed.

Its all great, just don't complain that the guy is too weak willed, Beta, effeminate, etc...

You can't have it all...I guess...

Also, its been my experience that women who make good money still want a guy that either makes the same or more than they do...If they don't, then resentment builds...Meanwhile, many well off guys(and even some not) gladly have handed over their money, bought expensive jewelry, luxury cars and gave their wives/SO's credit cards they paid for, etc...

I just don't see that many women doing that kind of stuff...It just goes against their nature...Their money/stuff is usually theirs...I know of no woman that has voluntarily taken that role...Of the one I can think of, the guy became disabled, and she is carrying the load....not without a TON of whining and griping about it....

Not complaining of double standards, just my own personal observations..

TFY
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Old 23rd October 2017, 8:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
In a nutshell, over the past few decades, the traditional relationship exchange has broken down. It used to be that men and women each had something the other really needed. Men needed access to sex. Women needed access to resources. Men couldn't get steady access to sex unless they had resources to offer, so they worked hard for them. The partnership between men and women was a grand bargain that (usually) left both sides better off.

Ok, removing the genders from this:
1) one partner provides resources / financial support
2) the other provides steady sex
3) both need each other to reproduce

So what's wrong with female taking role 1), the male role 2) for her, and both - 3)? Same dynamics, just genders are not as in your description. There are many women with resources and high sex drive that will thrive in this 'traditional' arrangements with roles reversed.
Primarily because women don't need a relationship for steady sex. Sex is a "free" commodity for women, they can get it anytime they want, and therefore it has almost no value. Resources/financial support isn't free for either party, and therefore has to be worked for, having the woman work for money while the man "provides" sex is not usually going to be seen as a "fair" trade because the sex she's providing has no value to her, she can get that anywhere. Kind of like an very unattractive woman who's rich trying to get a rich guy to marry her based on her bank account. He doesn't care, he's already rich! And women are "rich" in sexual access, it's not a point they care about very much because they have as much of it as they want anyway. Also, while there are exceptions, the idea of a "higher drive woman" is an atypical relationship; I've been in plenty, and I've never had a woman who matched my drive. Yes, I know they are out there, but basing the "new model" for relationships based on higher sex drive women than the men is never going to work, it's far too rare to serve as a model for male/female interactions moving forward.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 9:31 AM   #139
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Primarily because women don't need a relationship for steady sex. Sex is a "free" commodity for women, they can get it anytime they want, and therefore it has almost no value. Resources/financial support isn't free for either party, and therefore has to be worked for, having the woman work for money while the man "provides" sex is not usually going to be seen as a "fair" trade because the sex she's providing has no value to her, she can get that anywhere. Kind of like an very unattractive woman who's rich trying to get a rich guy to marry her based on her bank account. He doesn't care, he's already rich! And women are "rich" in sexual access, it's not a point they care about very much because they have as much of it as they want anyway. Also, while there are exceptions, the idea of a "higher drive woman" is an atypical relationship; I've been in plenty, and I've never had a woman who matched my drive. Yes, I know they are out there, but basing the "new model" for relationships based on higher sex drive women than the men is never going to work, it's far too rare to serve as a model for male/female interactions moving forward.
LOL

Most women, especially those with emotional depth, don't just want to grab some random guy and scratch an itch. If a man wants to get and keep a good woman, he needs to learn how SHE thinks instead of insisting on his on little box to put her in.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 9:39 AM   #140
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LOL

Most women, especially those with emotional depth, don't just want to grab some random guy and scratch an itch. If a man wants to get and keep a good woman, he needs to learn how SHE thinks instead of insisting on his on little box to put her in.
This is 100% true, but I also don't see what it has to do with my original post. Steady sex IS important to men, it is one of their primary drivers. The poster I was responding to called that out as one of the needs in a relationship, to which I agreed. My point is that need is only really valuable to men because women have more options for steady sex should they desire it. Just like "resources/financial support" are more valuable for some women, I don't need/want that from a woman because I have an abundance of it; it's not valuable to me. All I am saying, reversing the equation doesn't work because women providing financial support and men providing sex (if the woman is the primary breadwinner) isn't a good trade for most men or women. Women don't want the sex as much and have an abundant supply. Men don't want the money as much and have an abundant supply. That's why those relationships are hard, the man/woman isn't providing the other person's typical primary need as their primary contribution to the relationship.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 9:44 AM   #141
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when people are young it's women who have the upper hand in the dating game. when people get older it's the men who have the advantage.
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Old 24th October 2017, 1:25 PM   #142
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This is 100% true, but I also don't see what it has to do with my original post. Steady sex IS important to men, it is one of their primary drivers. The poster I was responding to called that out as one of the needs in a relationship, to which I agreed. My point is that need is only really valuable to men because women have more options for steady sex should they desire it. Just like "resources/financial support" are more valuable for some women, I don't need/want that from a woman because I have an abundance of it; it's not valuable to me. All I am saying, reversing the equation doesn't work because women providing financial support and men providing sex (if the woman is the primary breadwinner) isn't a good trade for most men or women. Women don't want the sex as much and have an abundant supply. Men don't want the money as much and have an abundant supply. That's why those relationships are hard, the man/woman isn't providing the other person's typical primary need as their primary contribution to the relationship.
You are excellent with words, but it is still the same old whining stereotype. I have a GREAT need for steady sex, and no, I don't just wanna grab the guy at the gas station. There is an underlying bitterness in this whole "women can get it anytime" mantra. Most mature women want connection with a man who doesn't dismiss and devalue them (and argue with them about how they really feel) in order to desire sex.

So if a man is frustrated that his paradigm leaves him...in frustration....maybe he should believe his partner and take a look at how he treats her. And shift his paradigm. Unless, of course, being right is more important than the relationship.
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Old 1st November 2017, 12:21 PM   #143
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You are excellent with words, but it is still the same old whining stereotype. I have a GREAT need for steady sex, and no, I don't just wanna grab the guy at the gas station. There is an underlying bitterness in this whole "women can get it anytime" mantra. Most mature women want connection with a man who doesn't dismiss and devalue them (and argue with them about how they really feel) in order to desire sex.

So if a man is frustrated that his paradigm leaves him...in frustration....maybe he should believe his partner and take a look at how he treats her. And shift his paradigm. Unless, of course, being right is more important than the relationship.
That is not correct. I sense hostility in this post. As for paradigm shifts, that will never happen. Thing called biology stops that. Traditional values have been upended and societal norms are being replaced. Just asking men to take a seat and grab at straws is hardly the answer for the gender roles...If the reverse was true, LS wouldn't have so many infidelity posts on here...Again, SEX. jmo.
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Old 1st November 2017, 10:06 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by knabe View Post
You are excellent with words, but it is still the same old whining stereotype. I have a GREAT need for steady sex, and no, I don't just wanna grab the guy at the gas station. There is an underlying bitterness in this whole "women can get it anytime" mantra. Most mature women want connection with a man who doesn't dismiss and devalue them (and argue with them about how they really feel) in order to desire sex.

So if a man is frustrated that his paradigm leaves him...in frustration....maybe he should believe his partner and take a look at how he treats her. And shift his paradigm. Unless, of course, being right is more important than the relationship.
I hate it. I hate it
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Old 2nd November 2017, 6:46 AM   #145
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The pseudoscientific garbage in this thread is making my eyes cross.

- Appeal to tradition is dumb. "Traditions" have at times included slavery, rape, torture, human sacrifice, and incest. We get rid of the ones that are based in mistaken belief or no longer useful so we can survive.

- Biology is not destiny. If it were, half of us would be dead before our tenth birthday. We don't have the same style of teeth or gut bacteria as our ancestors. We are constantly subverting the forces of biology through medicines, environment, diet, life choices, etc. Teen pregnancies plummeted with the advent of birth control. Immunizations are why most of us are alive. If you love biology that much, embrace cancer.

- Biology is not destiny (again). We don't throw infertile women and men with sub-optimal sperm off of buildings. Reproduction is not, nor should it be the end goal for every individual. Advanced societies value humans beyond their reproductive potential.

- "Who cares about outliers?" Everyone. Deviations help us explain the norm. You can't make judgments about a general rule unless you understand the edge cases. (No_Go, an actual scientist, understands this.) Outliers are particularly important when evaluating the behavior of groups.

The smartest person I have ever met is a Microsoft executive who is an XXY, an outlier in every sense of the word. She goes by female pronouns for convenience, but doesn't particularly consider herself male or female and is too busy writing algorithms (and poetry!) that will annihilate your mind. We as a human race are lucky to have people like her, and I am so grateful we've reached a point where people can thrive without having to fit a specific niche.

Live and let live. If you cannot find a romantic partner due to contemporary power dynamics that put men and women on equal footing, that says more about you than it does anyone else. This is not your grandfather's society. We don't shun minorities and gays. We are learning more every day about the human experience and opening ourselves up to broader perspectives, many of which have never been heard before. Yes, traditions and norms are being upended. That's a great thing for all of us.

There is one real scientific truth that's worth keeping in mind: the organisms that ultimately thrive and end up succeeding are the ones that adapt to change.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 8:37 AM   #146
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Equal footing is not the case when it comes to law and social expectations here in the states though. Men who are divorced are relegated to 10% child visitation even when 50% was agreed upon. Even in amicable separation cases. Alimony to females in same cases when females are employed and thriving. Other resources as well including retirement and property are fair game. Its scary. Some guys are just opting out. They are not bad people, just not diving into a game that was already expecting them to lose over 50% of the time. I get it, it says alot about us as society...One step forward, two steps back.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 8:55 AM   #147
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There is one real scientific truth that's worth keeping in mind: the organisms that ultimately thrive and end up succeeding are the ones that adapt to change.
OK, so how do all the struggling guys on LS "adapt" in order to find satisfying physical and emotional relationships? If you are talking about things like this . . .

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Originally Posted by No_Go View Post
[B]
Ok, removing the genders from this:
1) one partner provides resources / financial support
2) the other provides steady sex
3) both need each other to reproduce

So what's wrong with female taking role 1), the male role 2) for her, and both - 3)? Same dynamics, just genders are not as in your description. There are many women with resources and high sex drive that will thrive in this 'traditional' arrangements with roles reversed.
. . . I don't see how this can work for very many heterosexual relationships. Men who have posted that they do well with highly-educated, driven, dominant women will say that at the instinctive-attraction level, these women want men who are even more dominant.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 9:03 AM   #148
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OK, so how do all the struggling guys on LS "adapt" in order to find satisfying physical and emotional relationships? If you are talking about things like this . . .



. . . I don't see how this can work for very many heterosexual relationships. Men who have posted that they do well with highly-educated, driven, dominant women will say that at the instinctive-attraction level, these women want men who are even more dominant.

Right....

IMO, A good part of why there are so many male/female relationship issues now vs years ago, is that there is a struggle between that which is inherent in all of us as men and women("biology") and societal pressures for gender neutrality...These types of methodologies only push us further apart...Instilling masculine type of qualities in a woman and feminine in men, all just create behaviors and mannerisms that each gender inherently doesn't want...

I get how in the strive for employment/career/child raising equality, there almost must be some of this "conditioning"....About all I can say is that the ones having success never fully lose that which fundamentally make them attractive(and more agreeable/compatible) to the opposite sex..

The rest just perpetually whine....

TFY
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Old 2nd November 2017, 9:13 AM   #149
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Primarily because women don't need a relationship for steady sex. Sex is a "free" commodity for women, they can get it anytime they want, and therefore it has almost no value. Resources/financial support isn't free for either party, and therefore has to be worked for, having the woman work for money while the man "provides" sex is not usually going to be seen as a "fair" trade because the sex she's providing has no value to her, she can get that anywhere.
Perhaps, but from what I hear from many women (including my wife), is that while it is easy for a woman to get sex, it's very difficult for them to find a man who is really good at sex.


As a man with some experience, I can also say that many women are not very good at sex. Perhaps this issue is frustrating for both men and women. The "problem" - if there really is one - isn't about sex, it's about other issues. Men and women have learned from social trends to look out for themselves, and committed relationships need greater mutual altruism, compassion, and kindness. How we can achieve more of that in our modern culture is the real conundrum, IMO.
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Old 2nd November 2017, 9:25 AM   #150
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Also, its been my experience that women who make good money still want a guy that either makes the same or more than they do...If they don't, then resentment builds...Meanwhile, many well off guys(and even some not) gladly have handed over their money, bought expensive jewelry, luxury cars and gave their wives/SO's credit cards they paid for, etc...
That's not been my experience. I've noted that successful women seem to want somebody who is not a drag,has time to spend with them, and doesn't interfere with her career. Sure, he has to have his finances in order, but he doesn't have to be her equal financially.

Granted, most of those partnerships/marriages I've seen were between generally successful people anyhow, so it became a question of investments vs. more investments, but at least at that end of the financial spectrum it is definitely possible. It's also unlikely that either the man or the woman would be particularly beta.
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