What happens to the guys who . . .

[GoodOnPaper]

. . . are dismissed as "vanilla", "boring", "too nice", etc. in the early stages of meeting and dating? So many guys seem to be labeled this way, especially on LS. Being pegged in this category myself, I've wondered if my experience of ending up with someone I didn't fall head-over-heels in infatuation with is typical or do two "vanilla" people eventually come together and somehow it's fireworks? Or are most of these "boring" guys single forever?

 

I know to some degree, attraction can be subjective, but the doors seem to be slammed on these guys pretty hard - as if anyone would be crazy to want to go out with or have sex with them. Is there something wrong with women who decide these guys aren't so bad?

[d0nnivain]

Some boring vanilla guys do end up becoming more assertive. Some find other partners who don't think they are dull. What's vanilla to someone might be risk taking to another woman.

 

The big problem many guys suffer is being too nice. That is not to say being polite or having manners is bad. What's bad & undesirable is being obsequious. You are allowed to express an opinion even one that disagrees with those espoused by the woman you like. Don't always say "yes dear, whatever you want." Instead of constantly asking what she wants to do be assertive about what you want: "Let's go to X restaurant or see Y movie" instead of "where do you want to go? Whatever you want is fine with me" while you are secretly dreading yet another chick flick or vegan bistro.

[somanymistakes]

In my opinion men are not generally dismissed for being nice. They are dismissed for being unattractive, physically or mentally, but they get it in their heads that they were passed over because they were "nice" either because women who are trying to let them down easy tell them that they are nice, or because they compare themselves to other men and think that they are nice.

 

Let me make up an imaginary guy. His looks are just a little below average. Not ugly, but nobody would ever pick him out of a crowd and say that he's cute. Just plain. He works an incredibly uninteresting job (what's a really boring job, retail at a really dull store maybe?) and makes $30K or $40K a year. His hobbies include drinking beer and watching football. He's not interested in travel and has never been out of his home state. He likes dogs but doesn't own one. He doesn't have a strong opinion about politics or religion, preferring to live and let live. Everyone who knows him agrees that he's a nice guy.

 

I'd imagine this guy would get passed over a lot in dating situations, because there's just nothing very interesting about him. He doesn't stand out. No one's going to say "better snap that one up!" But it's not because he's nice.

 

Of course this is all totally a story I'm making up so it has no bearing on reality lol

Too nice, like actually grovelling and having no opinions of your own, can become a "not mentally attractive" thing.

[normal person]

It's not like you have the plague. Most guys are boring, vanilla, beta male drones who are average by definition, and many pair off. I think men like that often make great husbands, in part because they have less options and therefore need to make more dedicated investment into relationships to make sure they don't fall apart. There are plenty of women of equal appeal who are very happy with a guy like that for their own reasons altogether. Ex: they want a simple life, they don't want to worry about their amazing husband cheating on them with all the women fawning over him, they don't want to worry about their husband being too fit because it would mean that they would have to be fit to keep him, etc.

 

Did you ever read that woman's article that was an appreciation for "dad bod?" A lot of that sentiment was present: "As an average woman, I want a man with an average, unspectacular body so I don't feel bad about myself and so he won't cheat on me. I want a guy like James Corden because I don't want to expend the energy to keep a guy like Channing Tatum."

 

Keep in mind, that article was probably written by an average woman and not a model or a doctor who would likely have higher expectations for her partner.

 

Is it the most flattering attitude? Absolutely not. Is a woman who has no desire to improve to get a "better" guy going to apply a similar lax worth ethic to other areas of life and hinder herself and you from achieving your full potential? Most likely. This is not the women who's going to go to the gym if she's unsatisfied with herself, she's just going to accept her situation and not do much to change. But this is basically an ideal situation for people who are content to be average and don't want to expend the energy to push their lives any further.

 

There are plenty of woman who will meet you and appreciate some aspect of you previously thought to be trivial or frivolous even in the absence of anything spectacular. But if you're not getting those women now, you might need to utilize a bit of testosterone to get your foot in the door, then lean back on it a little. Your sexual marketing tactic isn't money, excitement, abs, etc -- it's "safety." And that makes the average, vanilla guy pretty attractive to a lot of women, I think. Any women on here can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just making assumptions here.

Edited August 5, 2017 by normal person

[carhill]

IME it doesn't really matter how a man really is, it's how a particular woman perceives him. His being 'vanilla' or not is perceived purely through the lens of her attraction. The best way I can explain by example is that, if a 'vanilla' guy does exciting things as defined by most people, what he does is acknowledged as exciting by a woman who isn't attracted. He's vanilla.

 

Everyone perceives 'fireworks' in their own way. Two people can come together, stand side by side, look at each other, hey want to get married, sure OK, and live a contented and peaceful and loving life for the rest of their days. It works for them. That's part of what describes compatibility. TBH, of the few couples I've known who've been married for life, at my age now 30-40 years, they tend to trend to that dynamic. Their love and commitment is quiet and steady, as are they. No drama, no life is a popularity and image contest, just living and loving. Good on them.

[WaitingForBardot]

I simply do not believe that being too nice is ever actually the problem.

 

In my experience, men often conflate a lack of assertiveness, not making their interest/intentions known, with being too nice. They have somehow come to the conclusion that showing/making their interest known is somehow not nice, or even disrespectful. This simply is not true.

 

Men who are successful with women are successful exactly because they are not embarrassed to show their interest and let the chips fall where they may. They don't sit back waiting for exactly the right moment, whatever that might even mean, they are clear from minute one that they like someone that way (or at least are interested enough to see if they might like them once they get to know them a little better).

[Cookiesandough]

What kind of girls do you go for? I just want to say refuse to believe most normal, beautiful ones all want the guys who are 'exciting , unpredictable, aloof, unemotional, smooth talking etc. - all that stuff that ppl seem to associate with 'alpha'. No, I refuse to believe it because all of my sweet, gorgeous, LUCKY friends are with nice, calm, 'vanilla' guy's. I won't go deeply into how much the alpha/beta dichotomy annoys me - The confident bad boy vs the spineless nice guy. There are confident, nice, vanilla men and they are the sexiest thang ever

[Cookiesandough]

I simply do not believe that being too nice is ever actually the problem.

 

In my experience, men often conflate a lack of assertiveness, not making their interest/intentions known, with being too nice. ).

 

Exactly, all this or just being too overwhelming/clingy..they equate that with nice.

[elaine567]

In my opinion men are not generally dismissed for being nice. They are dismissed for being unattractive, physically or mentally, but they get it in their heads that they were passed over because they were "nice" either because women who are trying to let them down easy tell them that they are nice, or because they compare themselves to other men and think that they are nice.

 

Agreed.

Everyone likes truly nice guys, few want to be with players, narcissistic jerks, abusive thugs, and selfish idiots, and if they do find those types of men attractive then they probably have their own issues.

 

It is not the "niceness" that is the turn off, it is the whole package that is the problem.

"YOU are a nice guy, BUT you have no ambition..."

"YOU are a nice guy, BUT you are not very bright..."

"YOU are a nice guy, BUT I was hoping for a better looking guy"

"YOU are a nice guy, BUT you do not turn me on."

 

- forget about the "Nice guy" bit, it is the next bit that is the real turn off, but most women won't tell you that bit as they do not want to hurt you.

[GoodOnPaper]

Thanks, everyone. I definitely relate to being low-drama and avoiding all the cheating and one-partner-wants-a-threesome issues that seem to fill the marriage forum. But does that mean the highs just aren't going to be there, regardless of how compatible my wife and I are, like they seem to be for people who can regularly hook up for short-term things and FWBs?

 

I was always interested in relationships, even when I first became interested in dating as a teenager. It became apparent very quickly that I would have trouble attracting girls but I figured in a committed relationship, I could make up for all the casual dating, hook-ups, FWBs, etc. that I would miss out on. I would just get this experience with one woman instead of several but still gain the same kind of confidence and satisfaction as men who are good at attracting women. Or so I thought. This thinking seemed logical but maybe casual flings and relationships are just too different for one to "make up" for the other.

[elaine567]

Did you ever read that woman's article that was an appreciation for "dad bod?" A lot of that sentiment was present: "As an average woman, I want a man with an average, unspectacular body so I don't feel bad about myself and so he won't cheat on me. I want a guy like James Corden because I don't want to expend the energy to keep a guy like Channing Tatum."

 

Yes but James Corden is also funny and a sense of humour is very very important to many women, many women can easily pass on on the film star good looks to instead grab a man who is funny and entertaining

[thefooloftheyear]

The Island of Misfit Toys??....

 

 

(just kidding)....

 

I think when their attractiveness meets a women's needs, they find their way...

 

TFY

[carhill]

Yes but James Corden is also funny and a sense of humour is very very important to many women, many women can easily pass on on the film star good looks to instead grab a man who is funny and entertaining

Good point, witness The Bullet and Mr. Warmth, as he was variously known, who was married for over 50 years and died this year. People remember him for his often perceptibly cruel humor but the real man away from the shtick was a very different person. However, to all the women who found him unattractive before Barbara came along, he was a vanilla guy who had a biting sense of humor, exemplified by the reality that he didn't get married until 38, a butt of many jokes by his longtime foil and straight man, Johnny Carson. What I noted over the decades was a decided lack of 'image' away from the 'job' in favor of an everyday guy with everyday people.

 

What usually happens to the vanilla guys is either they adapt and overcome or happen to meet a lady who enjoys them as they are and is attracted to that style and they remain vanilla until they die. Or they live alone, as many people today do. Once one takes group dynamics and pressures off the table, life gets pretty simple. Vanilla, almost. That old adage about a tree falling in the forest and no one hearing it. The tree did.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I often have trouble connecting with "vanilla guys" because they seem to lack an identity. Sometimes they actually do have one, but mask it with being "too nice" because they think they will appeal to a wider variety of women. I just don't feel like I ever know them because they are too generic.

 

The guy that came close to raping me was the most "vanilla" and well mannered guy I ever met He was super nice in every way except I never really knew him. His niceness was fake and I discovered a deep well of darkness and supresed anger that lied underneath.

 

At my age, I need someone that knows who he is and is not afraid of expressing it.

[preraph]

I often have trouble connecting with "vanilla guys" because they seem to lack an identity. Sometimes they actually do have one, but mask it with being "too nice" because they think they will appeal to a wider variety of women. I just don't feel like I ever know them because they are too generic.

 

The guy that came close to raping me was the most "vanilla" and well mannered guy I ever met He was super nice in every way except I never really knew him. His niceness was fake and I discovered a deep well of darkness and supresed anger that lied underneath.

 

At my age, I need someone that knows who he is and is not afraid of expressing it.

 

I agree. I like someone who's got some momentum, and that clearly shows in someone's personality. Someone self-actualized who isn't being neutral and thinks a woman will define them and validate them and make them feel more of a man. i like a man who's already a man, girlfriend or no.

 

And Eternal Sunshine, that near rape you referred to, "nice guys" are a category of they several (about nine) known rapist categories.

Along with "boyfriend," delusional and act like you're now in a consensual relationship, and the more obvious ones, control rapists, inadequate rapists (which crosses most of the categories), sadist, sociopathic, necrophiliac types who only want sex with unconscious or dead with whom they don't have to interact, etc.

[aurelius99]

Women like guys who are jerks to others because kindness is perceived as weakness by society and women care very much about society's views. While she might like a guy who says please and thank you, etc, she doesn't want a truly altruistic man because such men get trampled. Look at Christ.

[somanymistakes]

Women like guys who are jerks to others because kindness is perceived as weakness by society and women care very much about society's views. While she might like a guy who says please and thank you, etc, she doesn't want a truly altruistic man because such men get trampled. Look at Christ.

 

It wasn't women who nailed him up there.

[preraph]

^^^^ Thank you!

[Birdies]

I agree with the women saying nice vanilla guys are great! My guy seems vanilla on the surface - he's mid 40s, balding, nice looking but wouldn't turn your head, not super funny or charismatic. But! He's also brilliant, kind and sweet and loving, so comfortable in his own skin that he gives off a humble but strong air of confidence, loves to travel and bike and backpack and go on new adventures, interested and informed about politics and world events, and he's an enthusiastic and generous lover.

 

Women find guys with personalities and interests, well, interesting! You don't have to be drop dead gorgeous or ripped, or a ladies' man. But if all you do with your time is go to your boring job and play video games / drink beer with your buddies / whatever, you won't give them a reason to be interested.

[Birdies]

What kind of girls do you go for? I just want to say refuse to believe most normal, beautiful ones all want the guys who are 'exciting , unpredictable, aloof, unemotional, smooth talking etc. - all that stuff that ppl seem to associate with 'alpha'. No, I refuse to believe it because all of my sweet, gorgeous, LUCKY friends are with nice, calm, 'vanilla' guy's. I won't go deeply into how much the alpha/beta dichotomy annoys me - The confident bad boy vs the spineless nice guy. There are confident, nice, vanilla men and they are the sexiest thang ever

 

Exactly! Nice, confident, interesting guys who are kind to others are so sexy.

[preraph]

I agree with the women saying nice vanilla guys are great! My guy seems vanilla on the surface - he's mid 40s, balding, nice looking but wouldn't turn your head, not super funny or charismatic. But! He's also brilliant, kind and sweet and loving, so comfortable in his own skin that he gives off a humble but strong air of confidence, loves to travel and bike and backpack and go on new adventures, interested and informed about politics and world events, and he's an enthusiastic and generous lover.

 

Women find guys with personalities and interests, well, interesting! You don't have to be drop dead gorgeous or ripped, or a ladies' man. But if all you do with your time is go to your boring job and play video games / drink beer with your buddies / whatever, you won't give them a reason to be interested.

 

Yes, and that is one of the problems. Some just go off and do what they do and won't get involved, so they are boring. I have trouble calling that nice, actually. I think it's selfish and not right for marriage if they can't take part with family stuff. But find yourself a match because there's plenty of nice and boring of both sexes to go around.

[preraph]

^ I agree. There's plenty of bland people to go around, but what I've always wondered is where they meet each other. Probably work or church.

[Cookiesandough]

Along with "boyfriend," delusional and act like you're now in a consensual relationship

 

Nailed it. Sometimes, I think the ones that call themselves "nice guys" are the true bad boys. A lot of them are a step away from murder-suicide.

[CptInsano]

Nailed it. Sometimes, I think the ones that call themselves "nice guys" are the true bad boys. A lot of them are a step away from murder-suicide.

 

I wouldn't go that far. However, there is indeed a semantic difference between the common term "nice guy" and how it is used in this context. I remember a guy being angry at a woman who liked him just as a friend. He was going into the whole nice guy routine, overlooking that this woman was the only person who tolerated him, and the only thing between this situation and having an actual girlfriend was a question of personal hygiene and the ability to show some honest affection.

 

He was neither dangerous nor suicidal, but extremely annoying.

[Chilli]

All a load of , if you ask me.

The first thing any women on this site will say about some guy she's seeing , is how NICE, he is, how ATTENTIVE , he is, bla bla bla bla.

 

It's when he's not like that, she's on here asking , how he feels , why is he doing this, why is he doing that , he's got problems , ra ra.

Can't believe people miss this stuff so forget the nice crapola, there's nothing wrong with you.

Go , read around , check it out , it's all there.

 

Besides , the most success full marriages l know of are from guys and brothers l know, are usually the most conservative nicest blokes of the lot.

Think about that. Talking 30yrs of marriage when everyone else , like me , mr evil ,are divorced.

Go look around at that too in older people you know .

 

You just need to find the right girl man , just like anyone else, male or female.