Don't they feel ashamed?

[mikeylo]

I'm curious. In the infidelity forum , there are some BS whose WS continue to see the AP even after Dday and the apparent reconciliation. Don't the WS feel ashamed? I mean , a normal human being does feel this very normal feeling. How do they continue the behavior even after their spouse knows. How can they even look the BS in the eye and expect their love and forgiveness.

 

It's not meant to point fingers at anyone, just trying to understand.

[salparadise]

Human beings are masters of self-delusion. When people have affairs, they don't do it thinking, "this means I'm a horrible person, but I don't care." They do some mental gymnastics so they can feel justified... spouse doesn't appreciate me, withholding sex, not the right kind of attention, etc. They always have some justification that reconciles what would otherwise be severe dissonance. Everyone wants to feel that they are a fundamentally good person (except sociopaths). So after it's been going on awhile and they're attached and have this cocktail of brain chemistry reinforcing it, the justification will become a fundamental belief. It's not rational to anyone else, but it's their belief, their reality.

 

One notable exception is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" mentality. I once worked at a place where most of the guys were cheating , and they'd all say they loved their wives dearly, would never want to hurt them, but this is just the way the world turns. They weren't ashamed, they knew it wasn't right, but they also didn't think it made them a horrible person as long as they were discreet about it. They didn't subscribe to monogamy as a moral imperative for men, however, they would not have been the least bit tolerant of a cheating wife. They weren't sociopaths, they just didn't believe there was anything terribly wrong with it.

[dichotomy]

You have often heard about "I live my life with no regrets"....some people are just like that.

 

Also its clear in all aspects of society that accountability and admitting wrong is a not a common trait these days.

 

Almost most people shrug these days when hearing about affairs or cheating, there are not much consequences outside of the end of the marriage. Without social repercussions - people don't see it as hurtful.

 

Some also feel justified in cheating.

 

Others feel they still love their spouse.

 

On and on.

 

While single my (now wife) was a mistress to two married men (with kids) I was upset to hear this and had many arguments with her about why she did not feel bad or wrong. She shrugged and said "not my marriage or kids". Of course when she continued a hidden emotional affair with these guys with me - she had to then accept some level of shame - but it took a very long time for her to get there - basically only after I dragged her to consulting did she break down and feel SOME brief movements of shame. Its just not her nature to feel a lot of shame or regret. She lives in the now.

[salparadise]

This question pretty well fall under the Kohlberg/Piaget's theory of moral reasoning and the Stages of Moral Development.

 

1. Pre-Convnentional - Avoidance of negative consequences

2. Conventional - Conformance, being seen as a good person

3. Post-Conventional - Principled, because it's the right thing to do

 

Pre-conventional and conventional will allow a person to either not care as long as they don't get caught, or to rationalize doing they want to do. With Post-conventional, however, it's a person's relationship to self and being true to their own values that provides the motivation to do what's right... the fully developed conscience.

 

Naturally, we'd all prefer that our spouses be Post-conventional. I think the moral absolutists are second stage Conventional (stage 4). That mentality drives me nuts.

[cocorico]

I'm curious. In the infidelity forum , there are some BS whose WS continue to see the AP even after Dday and the apparent reconciliation. Don't the WS feel ashamed?

 

I think the bolded bit matters. Some WS are serious about reconciliation, and throw themselves into it. Others are ambivalent - sometimes still in love with the AP while unwilling to walk away from the M, so go through the motions of reconciliation while "keeping their options open" with the AP, hoping that some answer from the skies will point the way to them and save them from having to make a choice one way or thee other. And then there are others who have checked out of the M, but can't / won't pull the plug just yet... so hang around in the M and may be assumed by some (including some BS?) to be "reconciling" since they haven't left yet...

 

Of course, there are others too - some (including serial WS) who want the BS to think they're reconciling, to take the heat off so the A can resume (or the next A begin). Others who've communicated, but not been heard, that they intend leaving the M when (insert criterion here) and have no intention of reconciling- but their continued presence in the marital home is assumed / blindly hoped by the BS to signal reconciliation. Still others who commit to reconciliation but realise they erred, or it's too much hard work, or they can't deal with the BS's continued anger, and so resume contact with the AP to ameliorate the regret / disappointment / resentment / etc....

 

Depending on the reason, "shame" / guilt follows, or not.

[mikeylo]

Human beings are masters of self-delusion. When people have affairs, they don't do it thinking, "this means I'm a horrible person, but I don't care." They do some mental gymnastics so they can feel justified... spouse doesn't appreciate me, withholding sex, not the right kind of attention, etc. They always have some justification that reconciles what would otherwise be severe dissonance. Everyone wants to feel that they are a fundamentally good person (except sociopaths). So after it's been going on awhile and they're attached and have this cocktail of brain chemistry reinforcing it, the justification will become a fundamental belief. It's not rational to anyone else, but it's their belief, their reality.

 

One notable exception is the "what they don't know won't hurt them" mentality. I once worked at a place where most of the guys were cheating , and they'd all say they loved their wives dearly, would never want to hurt them, but this is just the way the world turns. They weren't ashamed, they knew it wasn't right, but they also didn't think it made them a horrible person as long as they were discreet about it. They didn't subscribe to monogamy as a moral imperative for men, however, they would not have been the least bit tolerant of a cheating wife. They weren't sociopaths, they just didn't believe there was anything terribly wrong with it.

 

The first part makes so much sense. For them, the reinforcement about being right is also coming from their AP as they too are in the same mindset.

 

The second also makes sense but seems more like entitlement of being a guy! As for women I guess , when in affair,there comes a point where they begin thinking like men!

 

Thanks. You explained it so easily.

[mikeylo]

You have often heard about "I live my life with no regrets"....some people are just like that.

 

Also its clear in all aspects of society that accountability and admitting wrong is a not a common trait these days.

 

Almost most people shrug these days when hearing about affairs or cheating, there are not much consequences outside of the end of the marriage. Without social repercussions - people don't see it as hurtful.

 

Some also feel justified in cheating.

 

Others feel they still love their spouse.

 

On and on.

 

While single my (now wife) was a mistress to two married men (with kids) I was upset to hear this and had many arguments with her about why she did not feel bad or wrong. She shrugged and said "not my marriage or kids". Of course when she continued a hidden emotional affair with these guys with me - she had to then accept some level of shame - but it took a very long time for her to get there - basically only after I dragged her to consulting did she break down and feel SOME brief movements of shame. Its just not her nature to feel a lot of shame or regret. She lives in the now.

 

How do you partner up with someone like that ? Doesn't your heart bleed ?

 

Since cheating has become easier now , it seems to have become a norm but it doesn't make it right anyway.

 

I've got a lot to say about the mindset of your wife but I'll refrain, especially about " not my marriage or kids".

 

It boils down to having a particular thought and rationalizing it to be the truth. When they are right, why should be there any shame ?

[mikeylo]

This question pretty well fall under the Kohlberg/Piaget's theory of moral reasoning and the Stages of Moral Development.

 

1. Pre-Convnentional - Avoidance of negative consequences

2. Conventional - Conformance, being seen as a good person

3. Post-Conventional - Principled, because it's the right thing to do

 

Pre-conventional and conventional will allow a person to either not care as long as they don't get caught, or to rationalize doing they want to do. With Post-conventional, however, it's a person's relationship to self and being true to their own values that provides the motivation to do what's right... the fully developed conscience.

 

Naturally, we'd all prefer that our spouses be Post-conventional. I think the moral absolutists are second stage Conventional (stage 4). That mentality drives me nuts.

 

Sounds interesting but tbh, it went over my head. Beyond my understanding!

[mikeylo]

I think the bolded bit matters. Some WS are serious about reconciliation, and throw themselves into it. Others are ambivalent - sometimes still in love with the AP while unwilling to walk away from the M, so go through the motions of reconciliation while "keeping their options open" with the AP, hoping that some answer from the skies will point the way to them and save them from having to make a choice one way or thee other. And then there are others who have checked out of the M, but can't / won't pull the plug just yet... so hang around in the M and may be assumed by some (including some BS?) to be "reconciling" since they haven't left yet...

 

Of course, there are others too - some (including serial WS) who want the BS to think they're reconciling, to take the heat off so the A can resume (or the next A begin). Others who've communicated, but not been heard, that they intend leaving the M when (insert criterion here) and have no intention of reconciling- but their continued presence in the marital home is assumed / blindly hoped by the BS to signal reconciliation. Still others who commit to reconciliation but realise they erred, or it's too much hard work, or they can't deal with the BS's continued anger, and so resume contact with the AP to ameliorate the regret / disappointment / resentment / etc....

 

Depending on the reason, "shame" / guilt follows, or not.

 

This sounds more like the WS asking for karma to come back to bite them sooner or later !

[dichotomy]

 

 

1)How do you partner up with someone like that ?

 

 

2) Doesn't your heart bleed ?

 

3) Since cheating has become easier now , it seems to have become a norm but it doesn't make it right anyway.

 

4) I've got a lot to say about the mindset of your wife but I'll refrain, especially about " not my marriage or kids".

 

5) It boils down to having a particular thought and rationalizing it to be the truth. When they are right, why should be there any shame ?

 

 

 

1) I found out after we married so I did not know. She hid her past very well, and presented a side (a real side but just one side) of herself to me during dating and engagement. I had run out of time to have children and stuck with it because of that and also "for better or for worse" kind of commitment post wedding.

 

 

2) Very much so - it did for a long while. Only once she was in front of a female therapist with me - did she break down. It helped, but I know she will only every be 50% regretful over both her PA as a single person, and EA while with me. Many years now have passed since all this and I am left with a different (but related) issue of a low/no sex marriage.

 

 

3) Yes. Also at the time her father had died suddenly and she found out then that her late father cheated for decades with different women while married to her mom. It hit her hard - how can cheating be bad if her beloved dad did it ? Maybe it was ok - he loved her mom right ? Also MM was older and he "played into that part" of her cheating dad. Sick crap.

 

 

4) You would be preaching to the choir with me. I had many arguments with her about that (her single mistress time) and her MM's wives and kids. The Female therapist gave her what for - and then she took some (some) responsibility. This was many years ago now.

 

 

5) Yes rationalization. Also blame shifting - it was MM issue, it was MM's wife issue, yada yada.

Edited May 24, 2017 by dichotomy

[salparadise]

Sounds interesting but tbh, it went over my head. Beyond my understanding!

 

I doubt that it's beyond your understanding, but anyway here's a classic example that Kohlberg used in assessing a person's stage of development. The key thing is the reasoning they used, not their conclusion as to which was the right thing.

 

Heinz' Dilemma

[stillafool]

I'm curious. In the infidelity forum , there are some BS whose WS continue to see the AP even after Dday and the apparent reconciliation. Don't the WS feel ashamed? I mean , a normal human being does feel this very normal feeling. How do they continue the behavior even after their spouse knows. How can they even look the BS in the eye and expect their love and forgiveness.

 

It's not meant to point fingers at anyone, just trying to understand.

 

Some people have no soul.

[mikeylo]

This one is interesting article

 

No matter how we put it, this really becomes a very black and white thing and hard to comprehend. Really, no shame? Then you have some , who plead up and down that they are ashamed but blame the AP for not letting them go , that's why they have to see them one ( aka some months ) more time to tell them that the affair is over !

 

I guess I shouldn't even try to understand this mindset. It's nerve wrecking!

[Birdies]

Yes, I imagine that the ones who do this and *aren't* sociopaths feel deeply ashamed. I have to admit that I did this for a little while, and it was horrible. I HATED being dishonest even after seeing my husband's pain. Ugh. It makes me nauseous and tearful just to think about. I can't believe I was that cruel.

But I was in love with my AP and just couldn't find the self-discipline to go cold-turkey. Ugh. It's a terrible thing to do to someone you love and it feels terrible to do it