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Moving 'heaven and earth' to be with you


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somanymistakes

I made another thread for this <general topic> because the thing I was going to reply to with it, it would probably have been too much of a tangent for the thread's topic.

 

 

 

I wish people wouldn't say the things about "if the MM actually loved you they'd leave their marriage IMMEDIATELY" because frankly, if they walked out on their spouses immediately, to me that would be a huge red flag that they didn't love you at all, and didn't even know what love was, but were just completely shallow and impulsive and chased after the nearest shiny thing as soon as they saw it. I could never trust anyone who threw away a relationship without a second thought, could you?

 

Most of us have had to end a relationship at some point in our lives, and I'll bet for most of us it didn't happen in a split second with zero reflection. It takes a while of pacing around, weighing up the options, fretting about the consequences, before you finally reach the point where yeah, you're done, this is over, we have to break up. And even then, there may be some messy back-and-forth for a while when your partner pleads for a second chance.

 

I know that this "heaven and earth" line of reasoning is usually being intended to break APs from their hope that something will change, but I feel like it acts as a negative reinforcement encouraging the AP to do something ridiculous and crazy right away in order to prove their love. Leaping blindly into madness is not how you prove love. Dramatic, risky gestures are not proof of a sincere and mature affection.

 

It's absolutely true that we tend let the MM/MW coast too easily and believe in the faint hope that someday they'll leave, for months and years of wasted time, and at some point we need to face up to the fact that if they really wanted to leave they could have done it already.

 

But I still feel like the "They'd move heaven and earth to be with you, because that's what you do when you love someone!" message is negative and dangerous. Certainly the first few times I read it here it made me feel pressured to do something crazy to prove my love... And given that as OM/OW we already tend to be a bit obsessive, it's probably not a good idea to encourage us to think that way!

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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I think anyone who is married would find it very difficult to leave the marriage even if they no longer loved their partner. They have shared so much and are emotionally and financially entwined as well as often sharing children and pets. Expecting them to be able to do this very quickly is unrealistic and yes I think it does show a lack of care on their part. Basically, it's best to avoid someone married.

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Keeping it in perspective, whatever earth moving they did or didn't do, they'd have done with their spouses prior to and after marrying them, so it's good to keep that little factoid in mind.

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Well, since I was the OP of some of those comments, I figured I'd weigh in and provide a little more color.

 

I think my basic message here was this; if your in an A for any significant period of time (month or more) and your married AP isn't making significant steps forward to exit his/her marriage, then you're probably not in the situation that lines up with what I see most married APs portray. My W's AP painted his marriage has horrible/dead/beyond repair/roommates/etc. So, it's not like it would have been a stretch for him to walk away suddenly after getting into an A with my W, because, he indicated all of the above about his W.

 

And I think that this is common. That men/women who get into A's honestly (with their AP knowing they are married) will often indicate that their marriage is horrible/over already, and this A is just a symptom of the dead marriage. So, is it really impulsive at that point, when you've met someone else and you're already "in a dead marriage" to walk away? I'd say it's not at all.

 

But, thing is, people are lying, often dramatically so, to justify to themselves the A. Is their marriage really dead? Or are they saying that so you'll stay in the A? Because, I can tell you, my W said that to her AP, and our marriage was anything but "dead". But is it easier to tell your AP that "I'm going to leave" and "There's nothing less to save" than to say "He bought me flowers last night and we stayed up all night talking about our plans for the future, then had sex twice". Because, very often, the "dead marriage" is in fact very, very much alive, both emotionally and sexually, while in the A. The AP's W and I communicate, and she indicated the same thing, he described his marriage as "sexless" and that his W didn't support him at all, our conversation (me and the other BS) paint a VERY different story. The marriage was not at all dead, if anything, it's amazing it was as good as it was given that he'd already had a string of discovered A's.

 

So, all that discussion hopefully gives a little color. Because, while leaving after the "first kiss" doesn't make sense if your AP says "My marriage is great, I'd just like some more sex", it does make sense if the story is "My wife hates me, we are getting a divorce". And I think the 2nd is far more common than the first.

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somanymistakes

I know we've definitely seen some cases here where the guy is straight-up lying from the beginning "Oh, we're practically divorced, we're just waiting for it to go through!" when that 'practically' means 'not at all', and they're just spinning stories to get easy access to sex, no different from the ones who hide the fact that they're married at all.

 

But surely there must be more stories of people whose marriages were troubled but not dead, who fell for someone else and were then torn between the options. Who still love their spouses, but aren't happy with the way things are, but feel guilty about giving up.

 

In the cases where they claim they're practically divorced already and don't have any love for their horrible spouses at all, it's not moving heaven and earth to get out of that situation, it's absolute simple common sense! :laugh:

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lostgirl87

I think the whole notion of "move heaven and worth to be with you" is part of that Hollywood/Fairy Tale/Rom-Com idea of love. Real life doesn't and shouldn't work that way. And probably more so if we are talking in the context of an affair.

 

Yes, actions need to be taken if a MM or MW is telling their AP they want to be with them. However, the decision to leave a marriage, especially if the BS is wanting another chance is something that deserves a lot of thought and possibly even effort. Yes, this sucks for us APs but it's a price we pay for becoming involved with someone else's spouse. Those relationships where the WS leaves his or her marriage right away, without any "back and forth' and immediately jumps into a relationship with the AP are usually the relationships that fail. If my MM left right away, I know I would be concerned for many reasons. My biggest concern however would be that he hadn't really taken the time to think his decision through and simply acted on impulse therefore once he "came to" he could leave me as easily (or easier) than how he left his wife. Seeing him struggle with his decision and being willing to give his wife the chance she asked for shows me that he's not a selfish monster. If they work out, then good on them and it was worth giving it a shot. If they don't, then at least they tried on their own to fix their relationship and can walk away knowing they did what they could.

 

My MM never lied to me with regard to his marriage. He never said it was terrible or that it was dead. He said they had issues and he had fallen out of love BUT that he did love her and it wasn't "all bad". They had good times, there were things about her that he loved, it wasn't great but it wasn't bad enough to leave. Towards the end when we really started talking about being together he admitted he was confused- He didn't know what to do. And he should be confused! He made a lifetime commitment to this woman and they owe it to each other to do what they can to make it work. And if he and I were to ever have a chance, that relationship has to be 100% over on its own.

 

People on this site love to oversimplify all relationships and situations but humans don't work that way. Not everything is black and white. And that is why I have really limited my time on this site recently b/c nobody knows what any two people in a relationship know. I know that's the case for my situation and we don't fit into anyone's cookie cutter idea of what it should look like or how it should be.

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minimariah

I could never trust anyone who threw away a relationship without a second thought, could you?

 

i could.

 

& to be completely honest - so could you. but your MM didn't do that, so you're rationalizing as much as you can to cope with the situation.

 

if your MM had left the wife that day the two of you got together - you'd be on this thread, writing a different story and saying how it really doesn't require a lot to leave a relationship... especially a childless one.

 

you see what you want to see, it's so painfully obvious.

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somanymistakes

Honestly, if he'd dropped her at the sight of me I suspect we would have had a passionate encounter for about two months, burned out, and broken up again, both feeling even worse about ourselves than when we started.

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i could.

 

& to be completely honest - so could you. but your MM didn't do that, so you're rationalizing as much as you can to cope with the situation.

 

 

 

I couldn't.

 

My H (fMM) took time to leave the M and I wouldn't have it any other way. Anyone who is happy to leave a 30-odd year R at a moment's notice without a backward glance would ring loud alarm bells with me. Either he was already so checked out that he simply grabbed the nearest passing thing - suggesting I was a convenience rather than The Real Thing - and would later dump me, too... or he'd reflect later and wonder if he'd been too hasty, oscillate in his decision, second guess our R... Neither of which I'd tolerate.

 

Instead, I made him wait, made him consider, made sure he was fully aware of consequences- just as I'd made him consider before getting involved in the A n the first place. He needs to nderstand what his doing, and own his choices. I'm not one to accept "fog" or other excuses.

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minimariah
...I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

moot point.

 

Either he was already so checked out that he simply grabbed the nearest passing thing - suggesting I was a convenience rather than The Real Thing - and would later dump me, too... or he'd reflect later and wonder if he'd been too hasty, oscillate in his decision, second guess our R...

 

the length of an A has literally 0 correlation with the success of said relationship - in other words, it doesn't matter if it took someone 2 days, 2 months or 2 years to leave a relationship. it won't guarantee you a thing.

 

obviously, it takes longer to leave relationships and marriages with children by default - the OP's lover's marriage is childless, however.

 

Instead, I made him wait, made him consider, made sure he was fully aware of consequences...

 

you made him test the waters, Coco. THAT's what it's called. nobody needs YEARS to think about the consequences of an A or a divorce; and you should have probably made him consider divorcing BEFORE the A.

 

you know. as a friend. because that's what friends do.

 

;)

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moot point.
:confused::confused:

 

 

 

the length of an A has literally 0 correlation with the success of said relationship

 

Source? What is your evidence for this assertion? Or is it just your opinion - because mine differs, and I have some evidence to back mine up.

 

you made him test the waters, Coco. THAT's what it's called. nobody needs YEARS to think about the consequences of an A or a divorce; and you should have probably made him consider divorcing BEFORE the A.

 

Test the waters? What are you on about ? :confused:

 

He didn't need "YEARS" to think about the consequences; he needed time - but he did need years to be in a position where leaving was possible, and at the point where it was becoming possible, I made sure he thought through the consequences before he raised it with his kids.

 

Nor did he need years to think about the consequences of an A - that was a matter of weeks.

 

And no, there was no reason for me to make him consider D before the A. It simply wasn't on the agenda for either of us at that point.

 

you know. as a friend. because that's what friends do.

 

Perhaps you and your friends do that. I don't walk around convincing my friends to have As or to get D. But that's neither here nor there. We weren't friends back then. We were professional acquaintances. And I hoped we'd become lovers, which we did. It was only later we became friends.

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todreaminblue

truth is you cant move heaven and earth to be with someone if it isnt meant to be......that sometimes knowing that it isnt in your control is the only way to feel or you send yourself crazy...been there....as a bs who fought for way too long...being an ow or ws..same concept...

 

some things arent meant to be......and if you have to cheat or accept a cheater...it to me doesnt bode well for a truthful honest relationship that will survive...no amount of moving heaven and earth will save a relationship based on deceit.....deb

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I didn't read replies so forgive me if I say something someone already said.

 

Just analyzing the question in the context of affairs. Most MM are already checked out of the marriage (or so they tell you). They've spent all this time during the wooing stage, telling you (meaning OW) how horrible their wife is, how bad their marriage is, there's no love, no sex etc.

 

So I guess then that begs the question, if he's so unhappy and halfway out the door already and now he has YOU (shiny shiny), why doesn't he just leave now?

 

See the thing about affairs is they're not "real" relationships. And what I mean by that is they don't follow the normal "rules" that most relationships follow. Sure, it might seem to you like he's got better character if he doesn't immediately leave because it's respectful to end it right ....but then ....it's an affair anyway so who cares about his character? You already know he's flawed on that area so it's really just a trick your mind plays on you to get youbwhat you want.

 

Then there's the fact that he could be staying for cake eating. Maybe he has no intention of leaving and it's actually not a good thing it's taking awhile for him to "figure it out".

 

See, it's hard to analyze affairs in any normal context because they're not normal. It's a fantasy world, you never know what is real and what isn't, because there always the underlying doubt

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if you have to cheat or accept a cheater...it to me doesnt bode well for a truthful honest relationship that will survive...no amount of moving heaven and earth will save a relationship based on deceit.....deb

 

I've never understood this reasoning. The deceit isn't in the A, it's in the M. It's the BS the WS is deceiving, not the AP (though, admittedly, some WS may deceive their AP too - and I'd be wary about predicting the success of those. Though, oddly, some domovercome the initial deceit- I guess the same way a reconciling BS and WS are able to overcome the deceit in the M.)

 

In a normal A, where any deceit is between WS and BS rather than between WS and AP, the A is often a haven from the deceit, a space where the WS feels they can be completely themself. To the WS in this kind of R, it feels like the more authentic of the Rs, and, if they are then able to leave and form a LTR with the AP without the vestigial M, they have an honest, truthful and authentic basis with their AP from which to build a lasting R.

 

Provided, of course, that they're willing to confront the conditions that led to their engaging in the A, and doing whatever work is needed to prevent a recurrence.

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purplesorrow
I've never understood this reasoning. The deceit isn't in the A, it's in the M. It's the BS the WS is deceiving, not the AP (though, admittedly, some WS may deceive their AP too - and I'd be wary about predicting the success of those. Though, oddly, some domovercome the initial deceit- I guess the same way a reconciling BS and WS are able to overcome the deceit in the M.)

 

In a normal A, where any deceit is between WS and BS rather than between WS and AP, the A is often a haven from the deceit, a space where the WS feels they can be completely themself. To the WS in this kind of R, it feels like the more authentic of the Rs, and, if they are then able to leave and form a LTR with the AP without the vestigial M, they have an honest, truthful and authentic basis with their AP from which to build a lasting R.

 

Provided, of course, that they're willing to confront the conditions that led to their engaging in the A, and doing whatever work is needed to prevent a recurrence.

The deceit is in the ws, they are the ones lying.

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I've never understood this reasoning. The deceit isn't in the A, it's in the M. It's the BS the WS is deceiving, not the AP (though, admittedly, some WS may deceive their AP too - and I'd be wary about predicting the success of those. Though, oddly, some domovercome the initial deceit- I guess the same way a reconciling BS and WS are able to overcome the deceit in the M.)

 

Some? I would think the majority.

 

In a normal A, where any deceit is between WS and BS rather than between WS and AP, the A is often a haven from the deceit, a space where the WS feels they can be completely themself. To the WS in this kind of R, it feels like the more authentic of the Rs, and, if they are then able to leave and form a LTR with the AP without the vestigial M, they have an honest, truthful and authentic basis with their AP from which to build a lasting R.

 

Provided, of course, that they're willing to confront the conditions that led to their engaging in the A, and doing whatever work is needed to prevent a recurrence.

 

Provided is a huge word in this scenario. What is a normal affair? How can deceit be contained between a wandering spouse and affair partner when there is a third person involved?

 

The affair partner is complicit if they are aware that they are an affair partner; therefore if any aspect of an affair relationship involves/requires the deceiving another person, the possibility of authenticity is void/null.

 

I don't see any possibility that only the ws is a contributor of deception. That doesn't make sense to me.

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somanymistakes

Provided, of course, that they're willing to confront the conditions that led to their engaging in the A, and doing whatever work is needed to prevent a recurrence.

 

That's the key, though. Because if that issue isn't dealt with, a WS who kept the affair secret from their partner has demonstrated that they are okay with lying, hiding important information about the relationship, etc, and that they might similarly quietly withdraw from future relationships rather than confront and fix problems.

 

'If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you' is not always true, if the experience and the recognition of how messed up that behavior was has an impact on the cheater. But a lot of people don't see any reason to learn or change, if they can get what they want anyway. And that's why people are seeing post-affair relationships as 'based on deceit'.

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That's the key, though. Because if that issue isn't dealt with, a WS who kept the affair secret from their partner has demonstrated that they are okay with lying, hiding important information about the relationship, etc, and that they might similarly quietly withdraw from future relationships rather than confront and fix problems.

 

'If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you' is not always true, if the experience and the recognition of how messed up that behavior was has an impact on the cheater. But a lot of people don't see any reason to learn or change, if they can get what they want anyway. And that's why people are seeing post-affair relationships as 'based on deceit'.

 

Agree.

 

Relationships beyond marital/romantic are complicated. It's highly unusual that one ends cleanly, with zero angst....including working, neighborly, friendship and such.

 

Yet if two people are engaged in building a life together while one or both are actively involved with someone else who believes they have an invested future planned...

 

This is a relationship based in deceit. It is. If it isn't then it isn't an affair. It's an open, honest, run of the mill, hello meet the kids and family relationship.

 

Said relationship may not be doomed to failure but unless the two lovers become immediately candid, it most certainly is deception.

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Cookiesandough

"Moving heaven and earth" to be with someone, while romantic, is a foolish, fairytale notion. Individuals never operate this way unless they are very unwell. People usually try to point out real life occurrences of this. My favorites are that King Henry VIII started a war for Anne Boleyn (when in reality, he wanted to break from the catholic church for his own reasons) that King Edward VIII abdicated his throne to be with Wallis Simpson (when in reality, just didn't like being king and she was a convenient excuse.)

 

A healthy person realizes there comes a point where a romantic relationship is impractical. This happens naturally for a person who is well and doesn't have scarcity mentality. A huge component of love/attraction is ease/accessibility. Yeah, people like 'hard to get', but once it reaches a threshold of just too hard to get/work out, it normally wanes. You are just another man/woman they met. Bottom line, love is ultimately selfish.

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Bottom line, love is ultimately selfish.

 

No, sweetie, Love is the opposite of selfishness and most certainly not a game.

 

Hugs Cookiesandough. Are you planning on following through with advice in your thread?

Edited by Timshel
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On a lighter note I just asked h if he would move heaven and earth to be with me and his answer was, do I have to get up....in this defense it is kinda late. :p

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I didn't read replies so forgive me if I say something someone already said.

 

Just analyzing the question in the context of affairs. Most MM are already checked out of the marriage (or so they tell you). They've spent all this time during the wooing stage, telling you (meaning OW) how horrible their wife is, how bad their marriage is, there's no love, no sex etc.

 

So I guess then that begs the question, if he's so unhappy and halfway out the door already and now he has YOU (shiny shiny), why doesn't he just leave now?

 

See the thing about affairs is they're not "real" relationships. And what I mean by that is they don't follow the normal "rules" that most relationships follow. Sure, it might seem to you like he's got better character if he doesn't immediately leave because it's respectful to end it right ....but then ....it's an affair anyway so who cares about his character? You already know he's flawed on that area so it's really just a trick your mind plays on you to get youbwhat you want.

 

Then there's the fact that he could be staying for cake eating. Maybe he has no intention of leaving and it's actually not a good thing it's taking awhile for him to "figure it out".

 

See, it's hard to analyze affairs in any normal context because they're not normal. It's a fantasy world, you never know what is real and what isn't, because there always the underlying doubt

 

I guess I don't understand the perspective that this is all a binary issue. Even if someone is in an affair, isn't it better to leave the marriage in a way that does as little damage to the spouse and family as possible? Obviously it will be terrible no matter what. But there are degrees of terribleness.

 

And if someone being a cheater makes them devoid of good character, how does that align with all of the spouses who reconcile with their cheating spouses? If it's automatically foolish to enter a real relationship with your affair partner because obviously they're a bad person and your relationship is based on lies, it seems equally foolish to reconcile with your cheating spouse. I just don't think these things are black and white.

 

I absolutely do agree with you though that affairs are fantasy relationships. Some much more so than others, but there is a degree of fantasy that is inherent.

Edited by Birdies
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I've never understood this reasoning. The deceit isn't in the A, it's in the M. It's the BS the WS is deceiving, not the AP (though, admittedly, some WS may deceive their AP too - and I'd be wary about predicting the success of those. Though, oddly, some domovercome the initial deceit- I guess the same way a reconciling BS and WS are able to overcome the deceit in the M.)

 

In a normal A, where any deceit is between WS and BS rather than between WS and AP, the A is often a haven from the deceit, a space where the WS feels they can be completely themself. To the WS in this kind of R, it feels like the more authentic of the Rs, and, if they are then able to leave and form a LTR with the AP without the vestigial M, they have an honest, truthful and authentic basis with their AP from which to build a lasting R.

 

Provided, of course, that they're willing to confront the conditions that led to their engaging in the A, and doing whatever work is needed to prevent a recurrence.

 

I'm sure there are A's like that. But I'm equally sure that they are extraordinarily rare. A's are primarily built on lies, lies about yourself, lies about how you feel about the AP, and especially lies about both relationships with the BS's. I mean, really, if your marriage is as bad as most AP's make it out to be, leave. It's not that hard. You don't get stoned to death. And, having an A is going to take "bad" and turn it up to "7th circle of h*ll". It makes no sense. Unless, of course, you really just want some fun on the side, then it makes all the sense in the world (but this is only typically for male APs).

 

Is it possible to turn an A into a marriage? Yes, it is. About 10% of people who get married out of an A are able to make it work. I don't know the stats on how many A's ever get to the "married" stage, but I suspect it's a shockingly low number. Let's call it 10% as well. So, starting today, if I kick off an A, I have what, a 1% chance of it leading to marriage? Most A's are broken off without the BS even knowing. Those that are discovered, most R. Those that D, most don't keep at it with the AP. Those that do keep at it with the AP typically don't marry. And those that do marry have a shockingly high divorce rate. I'm thinking that playing Powerball might be a better idea if you're dedicated to the idea of "I'm going to get into an A and marry/live happily ever after with the AP".

 

If you want some sex on the side, an A will give you that. If you want some validation/ego kibbles, you'll probably get that too. But authentic love leading to a "real" relationship that sustains you for the rest of your life? Ugh, your probably better off waiting outside the supermax prison and asking the first attractive guy who comes out to marry you, I'd hazard a guess that you have better odds.

 

Also, if anyone, for one second thinks that their AP is "only" deceiving their spouse, but is telling you the "truth", how they really feel, what they intend to do.. You need to really examine yourself closely. My wife's AP told her his marriage was dead. No sex. No affection. Well, I got the wonderful pleasure of speaking to the other BS after this was over. Sex, yup, probably on the same day he had sex with my W. Affection? To hear her tell it, yup, plenty of that too. Did she think the marriage was dead? Well, no, but he was a serial cheater, so, yea, they had problems, caused primarily by him!

 

You are almost certainly NOT getting the "real man" and the wife getting a phony. Again, I'm sure it does happen, but it's not your typical A, that's for sure.

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