Why smart men fail with women

[Male]

OK...first off, when you follow the link to the article below it says why "Very Intelligent" men fail with women. I think this article applies to more than just very intelligent guys, it can just be the way some guys are wired as well. I wouldnt consider myself to be very intelligent, but I would say just in my daily life experiences I am a few notches above the average Joe, and this article has many key points that hit home with me.

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1381074/posts

 

I think the list could be a little more condensed so here are some of the highlights below.

 

 

REASON #1: THEY'RE WRONG, BUT THEY CAN'T OR WON'T SEE IT OR ADMIT IT

 

I mentioned that smart guys are used to being RIGHT in most situations.

 

And what do most smart guys do when they come across a situation where they're WRONG?

 

They find a new situation... one that fits their strength. They know they'll be right next time, so they just walk away... knowing that it won't be long before they're right again.

 

(OR they let the "problem situation" destroy them... more on that later.)

 

Well, the BITCH about being wrong when it comes to women and dating is THERE'S NOWHERE TO RUN AND HIDE.

 

There's no quick "I'm right" around the next corner to make you feel better.

 

 

It only takes "failing" with a few women in a row for a smart guy to see the pattern... and realize that something isn't working.

 

Solution? Think harder.

 

A smart guy just assumes that his logic must be good... so he just keeps thinking harder.

 

But when no success comes, it really starts to become mentally difficult.

 

Accepting that you're wrong is a VERY hard thing for a "smart guy".

 

REASON #3: POOR SOCIAL SKILLS

It BLOWS MY MIND how many smart guys I meet that just don't GET IT when it comes to basic social skills.

 

 

It's as if they have logically reasoned that social skills are for lower beings who need to play games... and not worth the time it would take to learn them.

 

In fact, I believe that there are a lot of smart guys running around this planet who don't even have "social skills" and "be a cool guy that people like" in their "MENTAL MODEL" of what it could possibly take to be successful with women and dating.

 

Social skills are just that... SKILLS.

 

 

They're not social INFORMATION.

 

They're not social THEORIES.

 

They're social SKILLS.

 

And you don't get them by THINKING about them. You get them by GETTING them.

 

Excellent social skills are the foundation for good communication with other humans... and if you don't have good social skills, you dramatically lower your chances for success with women.

 

REASON #6: THEY FOCUS ON LOGIC INSTEAD OF EMOTION <<<< Pretty much sums up my entire existence

 

NEWS JUST IN: Women don't feel ATTRACTION for men who make them THINK.

 

 

Women feel ATTRACTION for men who make them FEEL.

 

So what do most smart guys do when they first meet a woman?

 

EXACTLY!

 

They get into a LOGICAL CONVERSATION.

 

I'm shaking my head right now...

 

Smart men try to engage women in LOGICAL conversations and interactions because that's where THEY feel comfortable... not knowing that they're SHOOTING THELSEVES IN THE FOOT by doing it!

 

 

Get this: A monkey sitting at a typewriter will type the collected works of Shakespeare before you will make a woman feel ATTRACTION for you by engaging her in logical conversation.

 

When you start a logical conversation with a woman you've just met, you are basically taking out a NEON SIGN that says "I don't get it when it comes to women" and putting it on your head.

 

NEWS JUST IN: Women don't feel ATTRACTION for men who make them THINK!!!!

 

NEWS JUST IN: Women don't feel ATTRACTION for men who make them THINK!!!!

 

/\ /\ /\ /\ I think thats my biggest downfall. I like to have intelligent conversations. Conversations that make me think, and I probably try to bounce these off the women to see how she reacts to it. Theres nothing wrong with having deep philosophical conversations, but I obviously go there too soon. When dating is just starting out it should be more about having fun and getting comfortable with each other. But my problem is that I think and act too much like a computer. I like to dig too deep too soon and that probably scares most women away.

 

 

REASON #7: THEY'RE NOT USED TO THE CHALLENGE OF THE MOMENT

Smart people usually have time to THINK about things.

 

If you're taking a test, you can sit there and work out the answers.

 

If you have a math problem, you can work on it until you've figured it out.

 

 

If you're trying to fix something, you can keep working on it until it's fixed.

 

Smart guys are used to being able to take at least a LITTLE bit of time to prepare and show off their "good sides" in most situations.

 

Not so with women...

 

If you don't know what to do at every step along the way, you'll be shut down very quickly.

 

Women have an AMAZING "He doesn't get it" radar system.

 

 

Women have all kinds of subtle and ingenious tests that they throw at men to separate the "get its" from the "don't get its".

 

And if you don't get it, then you're going to fail one of these tests VERY quickly.

 

But the worst part is that you won't ever KNOW that you were being tested... OR that you failed. Sooo TRUE!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Male

[spiderowl]

I don't know whether it's true or not that smart guys fail with women. I do know that most guys I've met (not all) have tried to tell me about something I already know about. I am widely read and have worked in environments where information and knowledge are the primary products so I just absorb what is around me. It is pretty dispiriting to talk with a guy and find out that he assumes you are not as knowledgeable as him or that you need telling how to do something you can actually do better than him. I know quite a few women my age who all say the same thing, that they can't bear to be patronised. Most of the guys I know that are in relationships treat their partners with great respect. I think there is an important message there.

[Male]

I don't know whether it's true or not that smart guys fail with women. I do know that most guys I've met (not all) have tried to tell me about something I already know about. I am widely read and have worked in environments where information and knowledge are the primary products so I just absorb what is around me. It is pretty dispiriting to talk with a guy and find out that he assumes you are not as knowledgeable as him or that you need telling how to do something you can actually do better than him. I know quite a few women my age who all say the same thing, that they can't bear to be patronised. Most of the guys I know that are in relationships treat their partners with great respect. I think there is an important message there.

 

Yes I agree. And I know guys just like you described. I am not one of those "Here, let me tell you how to do something because I know more than you" type guys. I am definitely a logic before emotion type guy, probably more so than most guys. Or maybe other guys know how to balance between the two when they interact with women and I dont?

 

The article I posted isnt perfect, and of course we all have our own opinions, but in general I think its pretty good.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Male

[anduina]

This is one big blur of issues that's being sold using the Forer Effect.

• A portion of very intelligent men are on the spectrum or near it.
  
• Some very intelligent men are socially adept and aren't dating challenged.
  
• Some who believe themselves to be very intelligent, suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect.
  
• Some very intelligent men have problems communicating with or relating to anyone who's not within one standard deviation point in IQ.
  

[xxoo]

I think this is a very good list, and explains well a lot of the issues I've observed on LS with men who struggle with dating.

 

I'm a woman, and I am perfectly capable of logic, but feelings are just as, if not more important to me when it comes to relationships.

 

To prove I'm logical, there may be a logical reason that women rely more on feelings: we are more vulnerable. We need to trust our gut so that we stay safe. A lot of time, there isn't a full set of evidence to draw a logical conclusion that a person or situation is bad or dangerous or just not right for us, but we feel it and honor the feeling. It keeps us safe.

[Keenly]

Regarding the logic vs emotion point, I can get on board with that.

 

I'm a very logically minded person. That being said, I can go 100 percent logic or I can go 1,000 percent emotion, without much in between.

 

Going to take a very special woman to put up with my crap.

[RecentChange]

I think there are a lot of good points made here, and they ring true from my experiences.

 

I am a logical person, and at least according to the IQ testing I underwent in high school - well above average intelligence. I feel I can often understand guys like this - even if I more often than not end up being their friend, and try to give relationship advice, rather than get in a relationship with them.

 

They want logical. They want formulas, "I did X, Y and Z - why didn't she respond?"

 

And this applies more to men who I would describe as "on the spectrum" as well. Coders, scientists, researchers that I have known I would put in this category.

 

While there are other very smart men I know, who have great social skills, and can "pull" woman easily - But they are also more the MBA, investor, etc type....

 

My long term F' buddy was like this - insanely smart, his thoughts were "on another level" than most of us. He didn't understand "games" and women. He certainly wasn't a pick up artist! But, I will say he was FANTASTIC in bed, and I enjoyed laying around with him afterwards engaged in intellectual conversation.

 

That said - I knew I could never have a real relationship with him. I don't know, he was too smart for his own good sometimes!

[Keenly]

I think there are a lot of good points made here, and they ring true from my experiences.

 

I am a logical person, and at least according to the IQ testing I underwent in high school - well above average intelligence. I feel I can often understand guys like this - even if I more often than not end up being their friend, and try to give relationship advice, rather than get in a relationship with them.

 

They want logical. They want formulas, "I did X, Y and Z - why didn't she respond?"

 

And this applies more to men who I would describe as "on the spectrum" as well. Coders, scientists, researchers that I have known I would put in this category.

 

While there are other very smart men I know, who have great social skills, and can "pull" woman easily - But they are also more the MBA, investor, etc type....

 

My long term F' buddy was like this - insanely smart, his thoughts were "on another level" than most of us. He didn't understand "games" and women. He certainly wasn't a pick up artist! But, I will say he was FANTASTIC in bed, and I enjoyed laying around with him afterwards engaged in intellectual conversation.

 

That said - I knew I could never have a real relationship with him. I don't know, he was too smart for his own good sometimes!

 

Your story makes me kind of sad.

[empresario]

I have a 150 IQ and am doing just fine. Though I could be what we consider an 'outlier' in the standard mathematical distribution.

 

 

I used to be awkward, but then I took an arrow to the knee. And by arrow to the knee, I mean I studied everyone else until I learned how to fit in. Don't judge me, it worked. In programming we call it 'brute force'.

[Imajerk17]

Interesting article. This is what I have noticed, on this forum: Many many guys here (and getting back to the OT, many left-brain-oriented High-IQ guys) struggle with the "illogical" nature of the mating dance. They either resent, or just don't get, their expected role as the man, how it is on us to meet the woman a bit more than halfway early on. It is the underlying issue behind bunches of threads on here.

 

Women indicate receptiveness, men initiate. Meanwhile women are the ones concerned with their safety--physical, social, and emotional. So it is typically on us to make the moves and risk rejection, all the while reading a woman's signals so we don't creep her out.

 

Yes, this may sound "unfair". But when you consider the fact that women are the ones who risk getting pregnant--and being hamstrung for several months carrying a baby to term--it starts to make more sense.

 

There actually is also a lot of power in this role too. WE get to decide whom to approach, whom to ask out, what to do on the early dates (we pay but can keep them inexpensive so its nbd either way) whether to see her again, and whether we want to have sex with her.

Edited August 21, 2015 by Imajerk17

[RecentChange]

Your story makes me kind of sad.

 

He ended up marrying the girl I used to give him "advice" on how to approach if that makes you feel any better! Funny thing, she went to the same college as I did, and was studying the same subject, but she was in the PhD program, while I was only still an undergrad.

 

Guess she was on his same level - does that make you feel any better?

 

He was just too awkward for me to have a "full" relationship with. I couldn't read him, we didn't share the same interests etc.

[GoodOnPaper]

Interesting article. This is what I have noticed, on this forum: Many many guys here (and getting back to the OT, many left-brain-oriented High-IQ guys) struggle with the "illogical" nature of the mating dance. They either resent, or just don't get, their expected role as the man, how it is on us to meet the woman a bit more than halfway early on. It is the underlying issue behind bunches of threads on here.

 

Exactly. I've read this article before and it does a great of describing why cerebral, intelligent guys are susceptible to "nice guy" qualities like analysis-paralysis.

 

 

There actually is also a lot of power in this role too. WE get to decide whom to approach, whom to ask out, what to do on the early dates (we pay but can keep them inexpensive so its nbd either way) whether to see her again, and whether we want to have sex with her.

 

This "power" is only to the extent to which you have options. With no options, everything becomes about taking who you can get. This can help you move your life forward, but it's not a particularly inspiring existence.

[Gloria25]

He ended up marrying the girl I used to give him "advice" on how to approach if that makes you feel any better! Funny thing, she went to the same college as I did, and was studying the same subject, but she was in the PhD program, while I was only still an undergrad.

 

Guess she was on his same level - does that make you feel any better?

 

He was just too awkward for me to have a "full" relationship with. I couldn't read him, we didn't share the same interests etc.

 

Great, so he took what he learned with you to get with another woman...gotta love it!!! Classy dude!!!

 

Similar situation I am in...he learns from "me", but treats "her" with what he learns...go figure. So, all she does is sit on her fatt duff and twirl and smile and get rewarded for that... **pfft**

 

I need to start charging for my services

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Number 3 is probably the biggest achillles heel

[autumnnight]

They want logical. They want formulas, "I did X, Y and Z - why didn't she respond?"

 

I think this is pretty much a summation of why some men fail. Women are not math problems.

[Keenly]

Great, so he took what he learned with you to get with another woman...gotta love it!!! Classy dude!!!

 

Similar situation I am in...he learns from "me", but treats "her" with what he learns...go figure. So, all she does is sit on her fatt duff and twirl and smile and get rewarded for that... **pfft**

 

I need to start charging for my services

 

 

I think you missed the part where she herself said she would never be with him.

[Phoe]

but then I took an arrow to the knee.

 

aaaaaaand yes. thank you for making my afternoon.

[spiderowl]

Yes I agree. And I know guys just like you described. I am not one of those "Here, let me tell you how to do something because I know more than you" type guys. I am definitely a logic before emotion type guy, probably more so than most guys. Or maybe other guys know how to balance between the two when they interact with women and I dont?

 

The article I posted isnt perfect, and of course we all have our own opinions, but in general I think its pretty good.

 

It is an interesting article. I especially agree with the bit about social skills. Examples of disappointing social skills in my age group (me being perfect of course (not)):

 

- Browsing smartphone all the time instead of engaging with people sitting close by

- Drinking too much, much too much

- Not offering a seat or drink - nice gentlemanly behaviour that does get noticed

- Being patronising

- Calling women by pet names - sexy, babe, hun, darling - just makes him sound like a spiv

- Not asking woman questions just doing all the talking

- Indiscretion is a biggie - e.g. talking about previous girlfriends in too personal a way (e.g. what she enjoyed him doing in bed!)

- Talking cars, vans, gadgets

- Swearing a lot

- Talking over women

- Commenting on women's bodies

[Keenly]

- Talking cars, vans, gadgets

QUOTE]

 

 

Men talking about their passions = poor social skills? I thought women liked passionate men, but is it really just things that women are also passionate about?

[xxoo]

 

Men talking about their passions = poor social skills? I thought women liked passionate men, but is it really just things that women are also passionate about?

 

A good conversation topic is generally interesting to both parties, yes.

 

That said, some women love to talk about cars and gadgets! Not sure about vans, unless meaning the shoes. I'd go shop for Vans, sure

[Woggle]

I always advise men to be themselves because if she falls in love with you actually are then chances are she won't try to change you.

[Imported]

- Talking cars, vans, gadgets

QUOTE]

 

 

Men talking about their passions = poor social skills? I thought women liked passionate men, but is it really just things that women are also passionate about?

 

I'm pretty sure she was talking about talking cars. And she raises an interesting point. What if K.I.T. from Knightrider was transplanted to the van of The A team? It would be an unstoppable force!

[Gloria25]

I think you missed the part where she herself said she would never be with him.

 

Well, if I read her post correctly - cuz of her bf's "perceived" low skill, education level, etc. - he saw himself a better match with the chick he married; AND, that he used what he learned from her to marry the other chick. Low if you ask me.

 

So, I don't see where "she" was the one not considering them a match - he did, and was low enough to take her advice and use it to woo and marry another woman.

 

In my case, I don't know if dude considers me a "match" for him or not. All I know is I've done more than enough to get with him and he's shot me down. And yea, while I get that we learn things from people we date and there's no law telling us what to do with that intel - I get upset with my dude cuz it's like he "seeks" info/intel on me and uses it to woo other women and then blasts it on social media for me and others to see. Not cool...

 

If he's gonna steal info from me to woo other women - then keep it to himself, I don't wanna know about it. OH, and YES, the kicker for me is the chick he's doing it for? For the life of me, I thought that the way it works is the guy studies the chick he wants to woo and uses what he learns about "her" to woo "her". In other words, he's busting his butt to woo "her" and she has no role in it - yet reaps the benefits because he woos her from what he learns about "me". So, she gets Class A treatment when she doesn't even know what Class A is and probably can't even appreciate it. Like if he takes her to a particular restaurant, she might be like "ok, why?" and could care less if he ever does it again, cuz that's not her thing and she doesn't appreciate nice places like that. Take her to a McD's and she'd be in hog heaven

[anduina]

If a guy really is smart, why would it be so difficult to figure dating and people out? Dating is quite logical.

 

• Boy spots attractive girl.
  
• Talks to attractive girl and asks her out.
  
• Girl says no. Abort.
  
• Girl says yes, firm up date.
  
• Girl won't firm up date. Abort.
  
• Girl firms up date. Continue.
  
• A day before date, contact.
  
• Girl doesn't return text. Abort.
  
• Girl returns text. Continue.
  
• Girl doesn't show up for date. Abort.
  
• Girl shows up. Continue.
  

[Keenly]

If a guy really is smart, why would it be so difficult to figure dating and people out? Dating is quite logical.

 

• Boy spots attractive girl.
  
• Talks to attractive girl and asks her out.
  
• Girl says no. Abort.
  
• Girl says yes, firm up date.
  
• Girl won't firm up date. Abort.
  
• Girl firms up date. Continue.
  
• A day before date, contact.
  
• Girl doesn't return text. Abort.
  
• Girl returns text. Continue.
  
• Girl doesn't show up for date. Abort.
  
• Girl shows up. Continue.
  

 

 

I'll take this one! You are assuming the woman is going to be logical. That was your first mistake.

 

(No Offense, Ladies)