Why do/did you believe what your AP says

[amomwhoknows]

I am curious when OW/OM say "My AP says" and seems like they believe it, why this is?

 

Generally speaking, cheaters lie. In affairs, they generally lie with ease.

 

They say they aren't having sex with their spouses (they usually are), they say X (but mean Y), they say their spouse is awful (but often they aren't), etc.

 

I am trying to help a young relative get over hearbreak caused by her own poor choices. But, exasperating those choices is that fact that she was so naive and believed the lines that were fed to her.

 

I am struggling to relate and wonder if any of you could give insight....

[RoseVille]

See this recent thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/528045-truths

 

We all have our reasons. I trust mine because he's been painfully honest, and it's the one place in his life where he can be completely himself, warts and all, and be accepted. That's one of his needs that's met with me.

[MissBee]

In my own situation it was a little different than some others, in that because it wasn't predicated on him leaving, he wasn't actually married and he didn't spend any time telling me much about their relationship, there was little for him to lie about.

 

However, I'm not naive. I know that he probably omitted some things or downplayed some things so as not to hurt me or have it be awkward. For example, his SO worked out of town, and he would go visit her. He had mentioned the town she works in and basically on weekends he'd go visit her, he'd say something like he's going to X town for the weekend so wouldn't be on the phone much. He never said he was going to visit her most times, but I knew that's what it meant. I knew that to protect my feelings he'd probably do stuff like that where he just didn't say what the whole thing was.

 

Likewise, I talked to other men during the A and I wasn't always forthright about it. I simply didn't bring it up (omission) or only part of it. So I knew he likely did some of the same things.

[RoseVille]

Adding on: Many BW come here and say, "Oh, he was lying to you. I was nice to him, he wasn't wanting for anything. We still had sex, it was great."

 

When my MM says his wife doesn't care about him, that the sex is boring, that he feels like he's living with his roommate... Guess what? Those his feelings and that's his perception. That's his reality. That's his truth.

 

Just as a BW has her perception, and her perception is her reality, so does he. And someone's sincere perception can never be a lie. Not hers, not his. There's her story, and his story, and then there's what the real situation is. But just because two people feel differently about a situation doesn't mean either one of them is lying.

 

So if a MM presents his sincere feelings about a situation, even if an outsider looking in (like a therapist) would see it differently, it doesn't mean he's lying.

 

As such, when my MM tells me his feelings about the missing parts of his marriage, I believe him that those are indeed his feelings. Because unless he's a sociopath, he couldn't be engaged in this affair if those feelings weren't true.

[MissBee]

Adding on: Many BW come here and say, "Oh, he was lying to you. I was nice to him, he wasn't wanting for anything. We still had sex, it was great."

 

When my MM says his wife doesn't care about him, that the sex is boring, that he feels like he's living with his roommate... Guess what? Those his feelings and that's his perception. That's his reality. That's his truth.

 

Just as a BW has her perception, and her perception is her reality, so does he. And someone's sincere perception can never be a lie.

 

So if a MM presents his sincere feelings about a situation, even if an outsider looking in (like a therapist) would see it differently, it doesn't mean he's lying.

 

As such, when my MM tells me his feelings about the missing parts of his marriage, I believe him that those are indeed his feelings. Because unless he's a sociopath, he couldn't be engaged in this affair if those feelings weren't true.

 

I think perception is an important factor, which for me means also taking things with a grain of salt and realizing that if perceptions are also steeped in feelings at the time, that they may change.

 

In my situation I don't think he lied about any of his feelings, because as you said, you feel how you feel. In our case he also never said he was in an affair because of lack of anything or that his SO did something wrong...but I am sure he omitted, downplayed or told some at least white lies about certain technical and concrete things.

 

There are different lies or omissions or skewing of perceptions for different ends and I think all affairs include them. I don't think most people just lie through their teeth about every and all things, but do omit or lie if it will avoid conflict, they feel it will allow things not to be awkward, for fear of what the whole truth might result in, because it seems easier etc (which all tie back to avoiding conflict or unpleasantness). The lies a MM tells his wife are for different purposes and ends than the reasons he might have to lie to the OW. For example, he had to lie to his SO about me completely I'm sure or else it wouldn't be an affair now would it. But I knew of her existence so it's not like he had to lie and pretend she didn't exist and so on, but to spare my feelings I'm sure he simply avoided telling me certain things or downplayed them to keep the peace. I think most of us do this to one extent or another in all relationships. Our relationships even with friends and family aren't all equal, we might tell a story where to our mom we omit some aspects, to our sister we may tell all, to one friend we tell most but change one detail and the list goes on of how we weigh what to say or not say to who and why.

[RoseVille]

Yup, totally agree, MissBee!

[gettingstronger]

In general, people believe what they need to believe, what validates their position. This goes for pretty much any relationship. They key is figuring out when you're being manipulated. The problem is, the more trusting and invested you are, the easier you are to manipulate. This goes for all human relationships, friendships, business, etc.

[Midwestmissy]

But you can't forget that he is lying to his bw. So her perceptions of the marriage are based on lies he's telling her, convincing her that he's committed to the marriage and devoted to the family, working extra hard at work. He sometimes twists perceptions of the marriage to the ow to justify his affair. He's not going to spend time with his ow glowing about his marriage, the ow would find someone else - not sexy. So we know that the mm is a liar based on that alone, he's lying to at least 1 person (and probably more, including himself).

[RoseVille]

But you can't forget that he is lying to his bw. So her perceptions of the marriage are based on lies he's telling her, convincing her that he's committed to the marriage and devoted to the family, working extra hard at work. He sometimes twists perceptions of the marriage to the ow to justify his affair. He's not going to spend time with his ow glowing about his marriage, the ow would find someone else - not sexy. So we know that the mm is a liar based on that alone, he's lying to at least 1 person (and probably more, including himself).

 

With each MM, his perception is that something is missing from his marriage, emotional, physical, or both. That's how he feels. Whether his wife feels otherwise or has been convinced everything is glorious and rainbows doesn't really matter, as his perception that something is missing is not a lie, otherwise he simply wouldn't be having an affair to find what's missing.

[adna89]

In my own situation it was a little different than some others, in that because it wasn't predicated on him leaving, he wasn't actually married and he didn't spend any time telling me much about their relationship, there was little for him to lie about.

 

However, I'm not naive. I know that he probably omitted some things or downplayed some things so as not to hurt me or have it be awkward. For example, his SO worked out of town, and he would go visit her. He had mentioned the town she works in and basically on weekends he'd go visit her, he'd say something like he's going to X town for the weekend so wouldn't be on the phone much. He never said he was going to visit her most times, but I knew that's what it meant. I knew that to protect my feelings he'd probably do stuff like that where he just didn't say what the whole thing was.

 

Likewise, I talked to other men during the A and I wasn't always forthright about it. I simply didn't bring it up (omission) or only part of it. So I knew he likely did some of the same things.

 

So how did your affair end?

[ladydesigner]

With each MM, his perception is that something is missing from his marriage, emotional, physical, or both. That's how he feels. Whether his wife feels otherwise or has been convinced everything is glorious and rainbows doesn't really matter, as his perception that something is missing is not a lie, otherwise he simply wouldn't be having an affair to find what's missing.

 

Honestly that is the problem with WS's they would rather find what's missing somewhere else then deal with the actual problems in the M head-on. It's very conflict-avoidant.

[RoseVille]

I also think it's really hard for BSes to admit that the one person a MM might actually be fully honest with is his OW. It seems unfathomable that someone who'd lie to you wouldn't lie to another, but it does happen.

[ladydesigner]

I also think it's really hard for BSes to admit that the one person a MM might actually be fully honest with is his OW. It seems unfathomable that someone who'd lie to you wouldn't lie to another, but it does happen.

 

Oh I'm positive my WH was honest with MOW, she gave me A LOT of details my coward of a WH would have never given to me. I too shed some light on things that made no sense to her. Ugh it was awful. WS lie period even to themselves.

[RoseVille]

Honestly that is the problem with WS's they would rather find what's missing somewhere else then deal with the actual problems in the M head-on. It's very conflict-avoidant.

 

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, they try very hard, and engage in the conflict, and don't find resolution. They cannot repair or find what's missing on their own; their wife has to be willing and able to come to the table, too.

 

For my MM, I know that he's been trying for years to repair and find what's missing within his marriage. It didn't work. For him, his options eventually turned to going without his needs met and sending him into a deeper and deeper depression, going outside the marriage to have those needs met, or to divorce. And for many reasons, divorce isn't an option for him.

[bentleychic]

Some things I believe b/c I've seen or been shown proof, some things I believe because I don't have a reason to doubt them, some things I believe b/c he has been brutally honest with me from day 1 sometimes to the extent that I wish he'd use a little more tact when telling me things.

 

I don't think he's ever intentionally outright lied to me. I believe he believes what he's saying and I believe certain things he's told me are his truth at the time or the way he thinks things will happen, even if they don't actually end up happening. None of us can tell the future so what we expect may not actually be what happens. Hell, if we're going by this sentence and he judged me, I likely would be considered a liar as well. Although I do hope/try to only say exactly what I'll do, sometimes things don't work out right and I'm not able to do things 100% as I'd hope/like/assume they'll happen.

[GoldieLox]

In general, people believe what they need to believe, what validates their position. This goes for pretty much any relationship. They key is figuring out when you're being manipulated. The problem is, the more trusting and invested you are, the easier you are to manipulate. This goes for all human relationships, friendships, business, etc.

 

This, a hundred times over. People also say what they need to say to put themselves in the position that they want to be in, regardless of if it's true or not.

[Got it]

I am curious when OW/OM say "My AP says" and seems like they believe it, why this is?

 

Generally speaking, cheaters lie. In affairs, they generally lie with ease.

 

They say they aren't having sex with their spouses (they usually are), they say X (but mean Y), they say their spouse is awful (but often they aren't), etc.

 

I am trying to help a young relative get over hearbreak caused by her own poor choices. But, exasperating those choices is that fact that she was so naive and believed the lines that were fed to her.

 

I am struggling to relate and wonder if any of you could give insight....

 

Because the rules aren't always laid out like that. I lied to my husband. I didn't lie to my AP.

[carhill]

I am curious when OW/OM say "My AP says" and seems like they believe it, why this is?

 

From my experiences.........Strong socialization to believe in, and trust, women, combined with being young.

 

Generally speaking, cheaters lie. In affairs, they generally lie with ease

Generally, I agree and that first time was a great learning experience, since the person lied about being married too. After that I became more 'trust, but verify' but still had those strong socialization messages regarding women which took a number of years to break down.

They say they aren't having sex with their spouses (they usually are), they say X (but mean Y), they say their spouse is awful (but often they aren't), etc.

Never heard the lack of sex part from any MW but, yeah, plenty groused on the acts of their spouses. Early on that lined up with what I knew of men from past violent encounters and being cheated by men, etc, etc, so, again, they were feeding into my stereotyping of men from past experience.

 

I am trying to help a young relative get over hearbreak caused by her own poor choices. But, exasperating those choices is that fact that she was so naive and believed the lines that were fed to her.

Acceptance really helps, IME. Accept that we're human, we learn each day and we have choices and can make different ones once accepting our path.

 

I am struggling to relate and wonder if any of you could give insight....

The person is young and life goes on and will be full of many experiences and, yup, sometimes they're negative ones. Process them and move on.

[Confused48]

The point of the original question though, what about MM/MW who are clearly and obviously lying about very big important things? Why do their APs believe them when to all those around them, the objective truth is obvious?

 

The answer is that affairs produce changes in the brain similar to those found in people addicted to crack. Affairs make you crazy and you believe totally insane things that are told to you by your AP. It is sometimes called the "Affair fog." No amount of rational talk or presentation of facts can match the power of the affair fog.

[GoldieLox]

The point of the original question though, what about MM/MW who are clearly and obviously lying about very big important things? Why do their APs believe them when to all those around them, the objective truth is obvious?

 

Validation. Self-esteem boost. They may think, "Wow, he/she is breaking their vows for me, I must truly be special. Of course what he/she says is true". Feelings also play a part. You know when you have strong feelings for someone, sometimes you completely put them on a pedestal and elevate them to god-like status?

 

Confused, you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes the truth is so, so obvious, but OW eat the breadcrumbs like their starving and haven't eaten in weeks. It's sad.

Edited May 27, 2015 by GoldieLox

[gettingstronger]

Interesting point on lying, lying became a way of life for my husband during his affair and it crossed over to all parts of his life. Some of the lies were small and insignificant like having a pet as a child that he never had, to puzzling like the size of our ski house (he said it was smaller, not larger than it is which seems off to me). I asked him why he thought he did this, he just said I blurred the lines so many times it became a habit. So odd from a guy that values truth.

[sandylee1]

No matter what the perceptions are, he's either sleeping with his wife or he isn't. This is one of the biggest lies they often tell. Some guys are such sweetalkers and they tell you what you want to hear

 

Your special

My princess

My soul mate

Two peas in a pod

 

To get someone in an affair you need charm, because why else would a woman accept a ready made cheater. The stories of my wife doesn't get me or I'm so deprived tug at the heartstrings and OW sees herself as MMs comfort and escape. She's what makes his marriage bearable. This is often what MM tells her. You believe what you want in affairs.

 

Quite often people are at a low and vulnerable point in their lives, so being showered with compliments and getting loving attention from a man is a huge ego boost. When your down and have your confidence knocked or low self esteem, you are perfect for the MM to pursue relentlessly if needs be.

 

But the kicker is always. ...I can't leave because of the kids.

 

ETA There will be some truth in what he says, but it's naive to believe EVERYTHING your affair partner says.

[MissBee]

So how did your affair end?

 

It was a slow build up to the end, I got more frustrated and wanted more and more, he couldn't give it, my frustration led to more arguments, I tried a couple of times to distance myself and say let's just be friends (which was silly as there was no way to immediately just be friends so it was still very much the same dynamic), he got busy with new clients at his job that had a different time zone which made him work odd late hours, and overtime we were communicating less until it went into full NC mode initiated by him. At first I fought it, then I accepted it and decided to move on. We didn't speak for a year at all, but we did end up reconnecting and did have a chance at a normal relationship, but that still didn't work for various reasons. There was also an element of trust that was missing as well where nothing he ever expressed made it seem like he was remorseful for the A or that it was a one time thing...I couldn't and still can't really trust that it's something he wouldn't do again and that bothered me.

[cocorico]

I am curious when OW/OM say "My AP says" and seems like they believe it, why this is?

 

Generally speaking, cheaters lie. In affairs, they generally lie with ease.

 

They say they aren't having sex with their spouses (they usually are), they say X (but mean Y), they say their spouse is awful (but often they aren't), etc.

 

I am trying to help a young relative get over hearbreak caused by her own poor choices. But, exasperating those choices is that fact that she was so naive and believed the lines that were fed to her.

 

I am struggling to relate and wonder if any of you could give insight....

 

He was not my only source of information, and concerning the state of his M, he wasn't even a source of information at all. That information I was given by others - long-time friends, family, neighbours, colleagues. They had witnessed enough over the decades to cite incidents and dynamics.

 

He has never lied to me (well, aside from pretending my birthday present was a box of cornflakes). I'm not a trusting person, so I always triangulate what I'm told, and not once has he been shown to have lied. Also, he is the most emotionally transparent person I know. Anyone can read him like a book.

 

I believed him - and continue to believe him - because all the evidence supports what he says. How do I know he and the XBW weren't having sex? Because that was what *she* claimed, in her emails, etc. How do I know they lived completely lives? Because we were able to conduct a R openly, in full view of his family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, etc and she simply wasn't a part of any of that. How did I know he would leave her, when he said he would? Because I saw the evidence - we looked together for suitable properties, online; he and the kids went to view them, and we discussed their impressions, and when they found something suitable, they moved out. We looked for suitable divorce lawyers online, shortlisted a couple, he phoned around and settled on the best one and retained him, and filed.

 

I believed him, because I had good reason to. Several years later, I still do.

[goodyblue]

He was not my only source of information, and concerning the state of his M, he wasn't even a source of information at all. That information I was given by others - long-time friends, family, neighbours, colleagues. They had witnessed enough over the decades to cite incidents and dynamics.

 

He has never lied to me (well, aside from pretending my birthday present was a box of cornflakes). I'm not a trusting person, so I always triangulate what I'm told, and not once has he been shown to have lied. Also, he is the most emotionally transparent person I know. Anyone can read him like a book.

 

I believed him - and continue to believe him - because all the evidence supports what he says. How do I know he and the XBW weren't having sex? Because that was what *she* claimed, in her emails, etc. How do I know they lived completely lives? Because we were able to conduct a R openly, in full view of his family, friends, neighbours, colleagues, etc and she simply wasn't a part of any of that. How did I know he would leave her, when he said he would? Because I saw the evidence - we looked together for suitable properties, online; he and the kids went to view them, and we discussed their impressions, and when they found something suitable, they moved out. We looked for suitable divorce lawyers online, shortlisted a couple, he phoned around and settled on the best one and retained him, and filed.

 

I believed him, because I had good reason to. Several years later, I still do.

 

^^^^^ This.