Training Wheels.

[minimariah]

this morning, i got a call from a VERY dear friend of mine - he is getting married. he is 34 years old & was in a 10 - year long relationship with his college sweetheart (first serious relationship). they were living together, traveled together, owned a dog, owned a car and we all thought the marriage was just around the corner.

 

last year -- they took a small break but no one thought it was a big deal because... well, crisis happen. HOWEVER - he ended up meeting someone new, fell head over heels in love & proposed to her in a matter of a year. his X is, understandably, devastated.

 

now... i noticed this happening a lot. with both genders - people will be in long, looooong relationship, first serious relationships, they will live together and they will have a life together, preparing for a marriage, blah, blah... then BOOM. suddenly, one partner (mostly a dude) meets someone new and marries that new person in a record time.

 

another example - my cousin was in a about 8 years long relationship. they planned a wedding & he had met another woman about a month before the actual ceremony; left his then fiancée & married that other girl 6 months later.

 

so it seems like the 1st person who got dumped is more like a... training wheel, practice for something serious. like a bootcamp, folks "exercise" living together and building a life together only to do ALL OF THAT with someone else. they mature through years, they learn how to treat one another, how to act in a relationship, how to be commited... only to really LIVE that with someone else.

 

anyone else noticed this phenomenon, too -- long relationships, long period of living together, doing everything together only for one of the partners to marry someone else in a SUPER short time. i've really seen it happening a lot around me, i was just curious what others thought.

Edited May 5, 2015 by minimariah

[velvette]

I noticed it, but not as a new phenomena.

 

 

As to your first example, maybe he was having an affair which prompted the "break" and didn't just happen to meet someone while on a "break".

 

 

In any case, people who live together like to say that marriage is only a piece of paper and they are just as committed to each other as those who get married. But, that's not really true imo.

 

 

I have seen research before that people who live together prior to marriage tend to have a higher divorce rate. The researchers conclusion was that the level of commitment was not the same as that found in people who got married without a "test run"

 

 

Of course its hard to measure something like emotional level of commitment, but definitely the practical level of commitment is higher in a marriage because it takes more work to undo it.

 

 

I also think the 7-10 year mark is one of the high risk areas for divorce in marriage. Perhaps the same holds true for living together relationships.

[minimariah]

As to your first example, maybe he was having an affair which prompted the "break" and didn't just happen to meet someone while on a "break".

 

probably. in a weird way... i'm not that surprised when folks dump their long-term partner and marry their AP -- but i am fascinated when they marry someone they met AFTER the break-up in a record time. it's just... interesting.

 

I have seen research before that people who live together prior to marriage tend to have a higher divorce rate. The researchers conclusion was that the level of commitment was not the same as that found in people who got married without a "test run"

 

i had no idea about this! i always thought that you have higher chances of "surviving" if you experience life together 1st.

[velvette]

probably. in a weird way... i'm not that surprised when folks dump their long-term partner and marry their AP -- but i am fascinated when they marry someone they met AFTER the break-up in a record time. it's just... interesting.

 

 

 

i had no idea about this! i always thought that you have higher chances of "surviving" if you experience life together 1st.

 

Yep, I agree its a bit unusual when people marry someone that quickly, unless they have known each other for a long time.

 

 

Ha.....don't get too attached to the research I described. That was correct, but in trying to find it a quick google turned up there is brand new research showing the original research failed to control for age.....pretty big oversight and just another example imo of how lacking psychiatric research is.

 

 

In any case, they now say its not the cohabiting that increases divorce rate but the age at which you cohabit or marry. Pretty sure they should have known without a study but who am I.

 

 

Some other interesting things is that it seems to vary by generations. With those in the 60's, 70's 80's, cohabiting as more of a political statement against marriage with no future plans to marry vs those of the current generation of marrying age more likely to be engaged when they choose to cohabit and planning to marry in a couple of years. Supposedly, they approach it with more commitment and set their arrangement up more like a marriage with buying property together or saving together for it, comingling funds, etc.

 

 

And then of course you have the seniors, who are committed but cohabiting solely to preserve financial benefits like social security benefits or pension benefits from previous spouses. Some of those things terminate if you remarry.

 

 

So apparently researchers have not been able to nail it down yet either.

Edited May 5, 2015 by velvette

[cocorico]

There is also the "starter marriage" phenomenon - a brief, tumultuous first marriage when you're really young, followed by divorce and a time alone, and then by a longer, stable second marriage when you're more mature.

 

Most of my friends are on their second marriages (or happily divorced, with no plans to remarry, enjoying their own space).

[cocorico]

Yep, I agree its a bit unusual when people marry someone that quickly, unless they have known each other for a long time.

 

 

Ha.....don't get too attached to the research I described. That was correct, but in trying to find it a quick google turned up there is brand new research showing the original research failed to control for age.....pretty big oversight and just another example imo of how lacking psychiatric research is.

 

 

In any case, they now say its not the cohabiting that increases divorce rate but the age at which you cohabit or marry. Pretty sure they should have known without a study but who am I.

 

 

Some other interesting things is that it seems to vary by generations. With those in the 60's, 70's 80's, cohabiting as more of a political statement against marriage with no future plans to marry vs those of the current generation of marrying age more likely to be engaged when they choose to cohabit and planning to marry in a couple of years. Supposedly, they approach it with more commitment and set their arrangement up more like a marriage with buying property together or saving together for it, comingling funds, etc.

 

 

And then of course you have the seniors, who are committed but cohabiting solely to preserve financial benefits like social security benefits or pension benefits from previous spouses. Some of those things terminate if you remarry.

 

 

So apparently researchers have not been able to nail it down yet either.

 

My H and his xW were of that cohort who cohabited with no plans to marry - though she'd been married before. Then the political climate changed, cohabiting became very costly and it made financial sense to marry, which they did reluctantly. I suppose it's unsurprising that that wasn't destined to last forever.

[velvette]

My H and his xW were of that cohort who cohabited with no plans to marry - though she'd been married before. Then the political climate changed, cohabiting became very costly and it made financial sense to marry, which they did reluctantly. I suppose it's unsurprising that that wasn't destined to last forever.

 

 

The opposite is actually true in the US.

 

 

If you get married your taxes are higher than they would be as two singles living together. There is a new phenomena amongst high earning young couples to have a traditional wedding ceremony without actually obtaining a marriage license that makes it a legal marriage in the eyes of the state.

 

 

Instead they draw up a contract to cover financial aspects of the union.

[cocorico]

The opposite is actually true in the US.

 

 

If you get married your taxes are higher than they would be as two singles living together. There is a new phenomena amongst high earning young couples to have a traditional wedding ceremony without actually obtaining a marriage license that makes it a legal marriage in the eyes of the state.

 

 

Instead they draw up a contract to cover financial aspects of the union.

 

Back home, it used to be like that too - married men were taxed at a lower rate than single people, but married women were taxed at a much higher rate, with the nett effect being that a married couple paid more in tax than two cohabiting, unmarried people. Luckily the tax system was modernised, and tax is now based on your income, irrespective of marital status.

 

The UK is still pretty archaic though. The state is definitely invested in people being (and remaining) married. Divorce laws are ponderous and procedures lengthy.

[lana-banana]

I find this phenomenon super interesting! I've been on one side of it before and now I think I may be on the other.

 

Independent of your example, the training wheels phenomenon seems to go like this: a couple gets together at a very young (<25) age. It's often the first truly serious relationship for one or both partners. After a few years together it seems marriage is on the table and then the guy just suddenly splits, meets someone new, and gets married to his next partner. Women are capable of this too, but all of the cases I've seen have been in men. I've seen it happen with dozens of my friends. It's definitely a real phenomenon, but why?

 

The more plausible theory to me involves brain development. Women tend to mature at a steady rate. By contrast, men mature at a rate usually reserved for snails and frozen cough syrup---until they hit their late 20s, "snap" and then mature five years overnight. I'm kidding, but not much. We've all seen this, haven't we? The guy who seems to be bumbling along until he just grows up out of nowhere? The statistics bear it out too. If you look at contemporary marriage rates by age you'll see a dramatic spike as men near 30.

 

But contemporary trends don't tell us too much, right? I wonder if it's related to the alleged "seven-year itch" phenomenon from the early-to-mid-20th century. When you consider the average marriage age at the time, the "seven-year itch" set in when men hit their late 20s. I think they could be related.

 

About your friend: maybe it's a separate but similar issue. Most people don't go on to marry their first love. There are probably a lot of reasons that precipitate breakups in these situations, like boredom and anxiety and a yearning for something new. And sure, maybe some of it is experience too. I fully believe that some people "teach" us how to be good partners. We aren't consciously using them, it just ends up that way.

 

So what do you do? There's no way to tell if your partner will leave you for some floozy who ends up being his One True Love. You can't really prepare for it, either, since it almost always seems to happen ex nihilo. My guess is it's more likely to happen if you're both relatively inexperienced and under the age of 25. The only thing you can do is keep your eyes open and a stock of good ice cream on hand.

[minimariah]

I find this phenomenon super interesting! I've been on one side of it before and now I think I may be on the other.

 

would you mind sharing your experiences/sides?

i've never been in a situation like that, but i have been thinking about it a lot lately -- i've seen it happen a lot during these last couple of months and i guess it just got me thinking.

 

i agree with you, you've made some really great points & indeed, men do it far more often. i don't know any other women who did it either... i have a feeling that men "crossover" easier than the women?

 

and you know, i understand when folks are in a relationship & dump their partner for someone else they like better... but situations when a long-term relationships ends & then he meets someone and marries her in just a couple of months? that kind of thing really interests me. it's like folks suddenly know what they want so they don't waste any time.

 

I fully believe that some people "teach" us how to be good partners. We aren't consciously using them, it just ends up that way.

 

THIS.

 

this is so true. some people truly do "prepare" us for someone else, as harsh and silly as it sounds. and sometimes, it is us who serve as some kind of bootcamp for others, such is life.

[minimariah]

There is also the "starter marriage" phenomenon - a brief, tumultuous first marriage when you're really young, followed by divorce and a time alone, and then by a longer, stable second marriage when you're more mature.

 

this too! i know folks who had a short, 2 or 3 years long marriage & married their next partner and THAT marriage lasts for over 20 years.

 

i might be wrong but i have a feeling that 2nd marriages are usually more successful than the 1st ones even though i did read a research saying otherwise.

 

Then the political climate changed, cohabiting became very costly and it made financial sense to marry, which they did reluctantly.

 

it's like this in my country, too (i think it's like that in most European countries) - you get far more privileges when you're married and financially, it is far more beneficial than just living together/staying single.

 

The opposite is actually true in the US.

If you get married your taxes are higher than they would be as two singles living together. There is a new phenomena amongst high earning young couples to have a traditional wedding ceremony without actually obtaining a marriage license that makes it a legal marriage in the eyes of the state.

 

wow, i had no idea about this! thanks for sharing.

[minimariah]

maybe another phenomenon -- i know two men, late 20ies, they never wanted to commit, never wanted to marry. so they usually have one casual, FWB or just not that serious relationship... & it's the "not you, it's me" excuse. then BOOM, they meet The One, suddenly they marry, they want kids, they literally change over night into these super responsible and committed men.

 

i think that's what usually hurts the most - knowing that your ex is doing everything he never wanted to do with you, never bothered... with someone else.

[velvette]

Back home, it used to be like that too - married men were taxed at a lower rate than single people, but married women were taxed at a much higher rate, with the nett effect being that a married couple paid more in tax than two cohabiting, unmarried people. Luckily the tax system was modernised, and tax is now based on your income, irrespective of marital status.

 

The UK is still pretty archaic though. The state is definitely invested in people being (and remaining) married. Divorce laws are ponderous and procedures lengthy.

 

 

The original US Tax Code was the same, but it was designed at a time when marriage overwhelmingly included a SAHM who was not earning taxable income. At that time, as a couple they paid less.

 

 

It is only since the majority of married women work that the math now results in a "marriage penalty" when it comes to taxes. Its never been rectified because it would cost too much. The hit to low or middle income is not that significant especially once they have children which provide offsetting credits.

 

 

However its a huge hit to the upper 5-10%, hence they have come up with the ceremony with no license. They live and present themselves as married but don't pay the tax hit. As it was explained to me they legalize the marriage once they have kids and get the offsetting credits and also to minimize risks related to custody/support rights in the event the relationship fails.

[lana-banana]

would you mind sharing your experiences/sides?

 

Sure! My negative one was very similar to what you described below. I spent way too long tangled with a guy who wouldn't and didn't commit, but didn't bother to disengage either. He was always very adamant about how foolish marriage or long-term commitments were. At the time I was too young to know any better and couldn't get past his gorgeous smile, amazing physique, and incredible talents (he was a classical pianist and a physicist). I deluded myself into thinking if I hung around long enough there'd be some magic moment when he just changed and realized how wonderful I was. When that didn't happen, I tried to seduce him and, well, I've mostly blocked the memory out to this day.

 

Just writing that triggered a rush of memories and awful feelings I didn't even know I still had. Yikes. I don't miss or want him at all, but apparently there's still a little raw nugget of hurt all these years later. For whatever reason I felt compelled to check out the site where I first met him (a community website for my city)...and his account is closed. Because of the way the site works, closed accounts are wiped from the archives too, so there's nothing there to see. Gone. Wow.

 

maybe another phenomenon -- i know two men, late 20ies, they never wanted to commit, never wanted to marry. so they usually have one casual, FWB or just not that serious relationship... & it's the "not you, it's me" excuse. then BOOM, they meet The One, suddenly they marry, they want kids, they literally change over night into these super responsible and committed men.

 

i think that's what usually hurts the most - knowing that your ex is doing everything he never wanted to do with you, never bothered... with someone else.

 

It hurts like the dickens, but ultimately I think it's easier to swallow that way. If your ex suddenly becomes the best version of himself when he's with someone else, it sure as hell isn't your fault. It just means you weren't a good fit, and you can take comfort in knowing it wouldn't have worked out in the long run.

 

My current boyfriend dated his then-girlfriend for almost four years. It was a consistently mismatched relationship: she had never had a boyfriend before and just wanted to be with someone, period, while he was still deeply missing his ex-fiancee who cheated and left him. Their relationship was very unhappy, and he tried to end it several times. When he finally ended it she went...nuclear, for lack of a better term.

 

On our first date he told me he found the idea of marriage terrifying and unpalatable. After about two months of dating he confided his ex-fiancee was getting married that night, and it hadn't upset him much at all because he was so excited to be going out with me. At six months we started talking about long-term plans, and a month later he said he loved me and was thinking "all kinds of things [he] never expected to think ever again". We attended a wedding two weeks ago when he swung me close on the dance floor and told me he could think of worse things than being married to me. And just over the weekend we talked about hypothetical future children.

 

Am I his be-all end-all? Too soon to tell, it's only been 10 months. For all I know I'm a third set of training wheels. But his attitudes and perspectives have changed dramatically since we began dating, and his oldest friends say they can't believe how much he's matured. They say he treats me better than he's ever treated anyone. I could flatter myself and assume it's because I'm just the greatest girl ever, but it's nothing like that. It's likely a combination of his age (28), the timing, our chemistry. So it goes.

 

Also, I just wanted to add that tax rates don't necessarily go up for married couples in the US. It depends on the earning disparity between partners and their individual tax brackets, and while taxes can go up when you're married, it's not common. I personally don't know anyone who's decided against getting married for tax reasons.

[Gloria25]

Sorry to disappoint, but there's no supernatural thing taking place here...

 

What is taking place is what happens when do don't follow "tradition".

 

See, us older folks (who haven't succumb to catering to their kids whims) did certain things a certain way, for a certain reason....call it "old fashioned" or whatever buzzword to put a negative spin on it.

 

I couldn't help but notice a lot of comments about these couples "doing things the way you're supposed to" - which is date, shack up and/or have kids out of wedlock then eventually marry.

 

Sorry, shacking up is not "progress" in a RL. It is many things. It is "desperation", it is "getting the milk w/o having to buy the cow", it is "one foot outside of the RL"...

 

Also, "dating" even being engaged for years on end is not being in a committed RL. "Marriage" is a committed RL.

 

That's why it was so easy for these people to cheat - especially just before the marriage. That's why people who shack-up divorce sooner than people who didn't.

 

See, when you shack up and play house, you put pressure on the other person to stay with you - even though the RL isn't what you really wanted...cuz, now you got comingled finances, having sex, and start making up excuses to make it work.

 

Also, in a shack up situation usually one or both people go for it cuz they wanna keep one foot out of the RL. They wanna be like married people, but incase it doesn't work out, they can bail w/o the responsibilities, commitment, etc that is binding in an actual marriage.

 

And finally, for all the others who thought they were in "loooove" and saw shacking up as progression in the RL? They just put a bullet to their RL's head. See, there's something motivating and magical about carrying your wife over the threshold when you become actual "man and wife". If you're already shacking up with them, what is new/unique about the day after you marry? Gotta love the ones who wear a "white dress" when they aren't even freakin' virgins. I admire Angelina Jolie for wearing an "off-white" dress.

 

See, people cherish and respect what they had to work hard for. All this rush into shacking up, even if it ends up in marriage - will soon be followed by divorce. Because if after two years of dating (does not include shacking up, being friends, LDRs, being co-workers) you do not put a ring on it, you never will...

 

Also, in a shackup you're under pressure to push it into marriage.

 

What's being discussed in this thread is nothing new to me. My fav podcaster has fun reading the statistics of divorces following people who shacked up.

[cocorico]

maybe another phenomenon -- i know two men, late 20ies, they never wanted to commit, never wanted to marry. so they usually have one casual, FWB or just not that serious relationship... & it's the "not you, it's me" excuse. then BOOM, they meet The One, suddenly they marry, they want kids, they literally change over night into these super responsible and committed men.

 

i think that's what usually hurts the most - knowing that your ex is doing everything he never wanted to do with you, never bothered... with someone else.

 

I've been on the flip side of this, too... a few times too many! You see the guy with the casual, FWB lifestyle, and think, I'll have some of that, that suits me... And next thing he's all moon-eyed professing undying love and wanting you to wear his ring and have his babies. While it might be what _some_ people dream of, if it's not what you want, then it gets old very quickly. Being loved when you do not reciprocate is a heavy weight, especially if you do actually like the guy.

[toolforgrowth]

There is also the "starter marriage" phenomenon - a brief, tumultuous first marriage when you're really young, followed by divorce and a time alone, and then by a longer, stable second marriage when you're more mature.

 

Most of my friends are on their second marriages (or happily divorced, with no plans to remarry, enjoying their own space).

 

This was me. 5 year M, xWW cheated, I divorced her, had a GF for a while, then was single for a while longer. I'm never going to remarry, marriage is like the plague to me, but I have a very stable relationship with my now GF. Probably the most stable relationship I've ever had. I learned so much from my prior relationships that I can apply to the one I'm in now, and it works!

 

I don't fault people for needing to learn how to be in a relationship. But I do fault people who make the same mistakes over and over again...that's just insanity.