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It's always the man's fault...


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Ok, for one I'm not a man. I am 100% female. Not even a guy at birth that had a sex change...

 

After getting slammed (again) for my views about females and males in relationships, I just wanted to post this link:

 

Pouty Husband Sends Wife Spreadsheet Detailing Sex-Life Dissatisfaction

 

My message is that, it amazes me how men seem to be the "pouty" ones. IMO, the roles in relationships and how men are treated in general has flipped so much where a woman can never, ever, do wrong in a RL and men are just supposed to sit there and take it. Worst, as you can see, this article I posted is from a "male", so now males have even bought into the story that they need to be "punished" for being a male.

 

No wonder most guys won't marry now a days :rolleyes:

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We weren't talking about men in relationships, we were talking about rape. Although, if you want to go there, my mother was raped by her boyfriend, when she had an operation, was stuck in bed most of the time, and he was insecure because my Dad was visiting for the holidays, and helping to take care of things, including his own children. So, that "poor, poor man" forced himself on her.

 

I wasn't slamming you, by the way. I was making an observation. I get along with people in some threads, and disagree with them in others, just like everyone else.

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I am a man from birth and 80% of the time it is the man's fault for problems in the relationship. He is supposed to be the leader and aggressor in many areas so more often than not he let things happen and let things get out of control.

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So, that "poor, poor man" forced himself on her.

 

He also seemed to be making the moves on me one night, when I was fourteen. He was drunk, and luckily, my mother walked into the hallway and demanded to know what was going on.

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This man sounds clearly passive-aggressive and immature sitting around making spreadsheets instead of communicating like a normal, mature person.

 

Sounds like a former friend of mine who is unhinged who sat around documenting all his grievances in similar spreadsheet form about his roommate...then gave him 20 pages of them. :confused: In that time he never once opened the lines of real communication.

 

Wonder if his spreadsheet got on the internet people would be critical enough to see there are two sides to a story and chances are the person making spreadsheets about their grievances probably has a SHYT ton of issues themselves and is no surprise in certain situations as only particular types of neurotic people do this sort of thing.

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We weren't talking about men in relationships, we were talking about rape. Although, if you want to go there, my mother was raped by her boyfriend, when she had an operation, was stuck in bed most of the time, and he was insecure because my Dad was visiting for the holidays, and helping to take care of things, including his own children. So, that "poor, poor man" forced himself on her.

 

I wasn't slamming you, by the way. I was making an observation. I get along with people in some threads, and disagree with them in others, just like everyone else.

 

No, this thread isn't directed at you...

 

Actually, I'm behind in my podcasts and heard about it yesterday when I was listening to my iPod and after some responses to my thread, I figured I'd bring up the topic.

 

No worries, you aren't the first person to ask me if I'm a dude based on what I post on message boards. :):bunny:

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This man sounds clearly passive-aggressive and immature sitting around making spreadsheets instead of communicating like a normal, mature person.

 

Sounds like a former friend of mine who is unhinged who sat around documenting all his grievances in similar spreadsheet form about his roommate...then gave him 20 pages of them. :confused: In that time he never once opened the lines of real communication.

 

Wonder if his spreadsheet got on the internet people would be critical enough to see there are two sides to a story and chances are the person making spreadsheets about their grievances probably has a SHYT ton of issues themselves and is no surprise in certain situations as only particular types of neurotic people do this sort of thing.

 

 

I think the spreadsheet thing is a good idea. That's not the big issue here. I kept an internal password protected spreadsheet on my laptop in my last relationship not about sexual frequency but tracking her calling patterns and how many times a month she complimented me in some way. Unfortunately it was in the latter part of the relationship so I have alot to improvise on with spreadsheets if I get into another one.

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I think the spreadsheet thing is a good idea. That's not the big issue here. I kept an internal password protected spreadsheet on my laptop in my last relationship not about sexual frequency but tracking her calling patterns and how many times a month she complimented me in some way.

 

Darren, I don't think this is normal and I already find many of your thought patterns a bit strange and obsessive in ways that aren't healthy, so you cosigning this as a good thing makes me even more sure that only particular kinds of folks find these things acceptable and they tend to have certain kinds of neuroses where they don't see how their own strange behaviors contribute to how they're received by others.

 

Keeping a secret spreadsheet tracking how many times your partner compliments you and tracking their call patterns? Mmm yea...no one will convince me this is reasonable behavior.

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When marriage is reduced to a spreadsheet, the ideal time for a lawsuit to end it has passed. Unfortunately, for some men, myself included for awhile, while we may not fear much in life, we fear terminating what was once a loving relationship with a woman, so some of us complain. I did most of my complaining in MC, then realized a man shouldn't complain, rather act, so I got a lawyer and did. IMO, life for the man in the article will improve once he stops making spreadsheets and moves on. 'Fault' is subjective. None of us are without fault. Our MC preferred to use 'responsibility', as we all have responsibility for ourselves and our actions in life. IMO, best to acknowledge it and move forward. Once that guy focuses on moving forward rather than chronicling or assigning fault, he'll likely be far happier.

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I think in the case of anybody who raises their marital concerns by way of a spreadsheet, male or female we can probably assume that that person bears a lot of responsibility for the marriage being a bad one. What an odd way to communicate with a partner.

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When marriage is reduced to a spreadsheet, the ideal time for a lawsuit to end it has passed. Unfortunately, for some men, myself included for awhile, while we may not fear much in life, we fear terminating what was once a loving relationship with a woman, so some of us complain. I did most of my complaining in MC, then realized a man shouldn't complain, rather act, so I got a lawyer and did. IMO, life for the man in the article will improve once he stops making spreadsheets and moves on. 'Fault' is subjective. None of us are without fault. Our MC preferred to use 'responsibility', as we all have responsibility for ourselves and our actions in life. IMO, best to acknowledge it and move forward. Once that guy focuses on moving forward rather than chronicling or assigning fault, he'll likely be far happier.

 

Ditto.

 

I think when one decides to chronicle grievances in such ways it is evident you place blame solely on the other person and don't see your own faults and your responsibility in the marriage and I'm sure this guy is no saint.

 

I think the things we do or find acceptable say a lot about us so the type of person who decides to make a spreadsheet (like this guy and my former friend) will usually have other issues of : blame shifting, passive aggression, anal retentive behaviors etc. which will no doubt also play into the current issue they are chronicling as solely the other person's wrongdoing.

 

I have no idea really what this example has to do with the idea about whether or not something is 100% "the man's fault." I don't know if it is making reference to a specific thing or not...but as far as I know and as you've said well, in most marriages, everyone has faults and both people taking responsibility where they should is more productive than one person deciding to sit around documenting all the "sins" of the other.

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Worst, as you can see, this article I posted is from a "male", so now males have even bought into the story that they need to be "punished" for being a male.

 

He's not being punished for being male. He's being shamed for acting like anything but a man: Passive aggressive, wimpy, pouty, and childish.

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I'm not sure about the spreadsheet thing with the article, but, I myself have a method to record my grievances, an "anger" journal. :laugh: So if/when I feel myself getting mad at something or someone, I write it down and reflect back/determine what caused ME to have that response.

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Getting back to the point of the thread, I do feel that there is a general belief that what ever happens in a relationship is a man's fault.

 

The woman pulls away emotionally or sexually. Maybe the man was abusive or didn't meet her emotional needs.

 

The woman cheats, most likely the guy did something to cause her to cheat.

 

People rarely blame a woman for a relationship ending.

 

I believe that's the point that Gloria25 was trying to make.

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I'm not sure about the spreadsheet thing with the article, but, I myself have a method to record my grievances, an "anger" journal. :laugh: So if/when I feel myself getting mad at something or someone, I write it down and reflect back/determine what caused ME to have that response.

 

Which is totally more productive than simply documenting all you think someone else did wrong.

 

In the case of a marriage even having such a journal is only part of it. It's good to reflect on your own feelings but as a unit having the space to be honest about your feelings, talk them through etc. instead of hoarding up grievances, like this guy, is so much more productive. As all hoarded grievances does is lead to resentment and doesn't in fact address the root of the problem.

 

In the case of cheating for example, sometimes the cheating party has a list of grievances they've expected their spouse to intuit and figure out by magic while never really sitting down to work through things together then when things come to light they pull out their figurative spreadsheet of issues that the other party is not even aware of....and I don't know about anyone else...but if my spouse handed me a detailed spreadsheet of when I turned down sex or did any other thing he deemed wrong, it wouldn't lead me to be open to working on things but I'd be angry and upset that he sat around documenting these things like some Big Brother overlord instead of speaking to me like I'm his wife! So it just compounds the problems and leads to a cycle of resentment. Resentment for the person sitting around with a detailed document of their grievances which when they read and tabulate help them to feel even more wronged and the spouse who is being documented when found out will also be resentful of this type of tactic and then everyone is upset and resentful.

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Which is totally more productive than simply documenting all you think someone else did wrong.

 

Now, yes. But, I've also done the opposite. And, it is passive aggressive.

 

In the case of a marriage even having such a journal is only part of it. It's good to reflect on your own feelings but as a unit having the space to be honest about your feelings, talk them through etc. instead of hoarding up grievances, like this guy, is so much more productive. As all hoarded grievances does is lead to resentment and doesn't in fact address the root of the problem.

 

In the case of cheating for example, sometimes the cheating party has a list of grievances they've expected their spouse to intuit and figure out by magic while never really sitting down to work through things together then when things come to light they pull out their figurative spreadsheet of issues that the other party is not even aware of....and I don't know about anyone else...but if my spouse handed me a detailed spreadsheet of when I turned down sex or did any other thing he deemed wrong, it wouldn't lead me to be open to working on things but I'd be angry and upset that he sat around documenting these things like some Big Brother overlord instead of speaking to me like I'm his wife! So it just compounds the problems and leads to a cycle of resentment. Resentment for the person sitting around with a detailed document of their grievances which when they read and tabulate help them to feel even more wronged and the spouse who is being documented when found out will also be resentful of this type of tactic and then everyone is upset and resentful.

 

Agree with everything else. :bunny:

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Call me irrational, but is it possible that maybe both men and women are to blame for breakdowns in a relationship?

 

I'm never going to pose as some sort of expert on relationships; I can only post from my own experiences. One big thing that trips up men and women is the different ways in which we communicate. I used to buy into all this new-age psycho-babble about how men and women were really more alike and that gender-typing was wrong. In a lot of cases, that's probably true, but there really are differences between men and women that can't be ignored.

 

I've noticed this. Men communicate with other men very well, but they absolutely suck at communicating with women. In the company of other men, a man will know instinctively not to whimper and whine. A man will know when it's time to speak, when to speak frankly, and when to shut up. Men communicate when they're talking. They might also be communicating with facial expressions. But that's about it.

 

Women? They're always communicating - always. They communicate when they're talking but they're communicating when they're not talking - and sometimes they're sending major signals when they're not. And that's what gets men into trouble. The biggest problems I've had in my relationships have stemmed from times when I just assumed all was well because nothing was ever said. Women will know that silence is communication and that can sometimes lead to either drama or a clearing of the air. But men won't often get it til it's too late, and drama's almost always the result.

 

The breakdown from the female side tends to be a tendency to expect men to just understand them. Again, men aren't going to understand them as instinctively as women will understand each other. Women also have a tendency to ignore and diminish the need for a male to have his ego preserved. Granted, there are times when a man needs to be neutered, but I've seen and experienced situations in which women begin to dominate a relationship, which makes a guy feel very awkward. Perfectionists might be great in business or many aspects of life, but in relationships, they tend to drive people away. People - men and women - have to be pragmatists and compromisers.

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Rejected Rosebud

If somebody is a big enough baby to present their marital woes in spreadsheet form that is their fault, whether it's a man or a woman! :sick:

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fortyninethousand322

Well, I don't know whose "fault" it is, but if you have to document your sex life like you're trying to bring a grievance to court, perhaps the relationship just isn't that good...

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When you give a training session, meeting, or presenting your case in a courtroom...visuals are essential. With a PowerPoint and/or Excel spreadsheet you can present images, graphics etc. that will "hit home" with your audience.

 

I believe the guy who did the spreadsheet was trying to put in black and white the bigger picture of how many times and for what reasons his wife was blowing him off in the bedroom.

 

Another reason I think he did it like that cuz you can tell from her responses, she was being unreasonable (i.e. saying she was "gross" from going to the gym then sleeping in her grossness - next to her husband, instead of having sex with him). I'm sure if he tried to "talk it out" without the spreadsheet, she would have gotten defensive and argued, argued, and argued....And, we know men hate arguing and/or having the dreaded "talk" with women.

 

People do "passive-aggressive" things because they are usually trying to get their point across w/o entering into a confrontation. On my podcast there was a story of a guy who's wife was angry cuz he cut the bushes to the ground...his response was something like "but honey, I finally cut the bushes after you told me to do it over and over". In other words, he was tired of her nagging him about the bushes, so he cut them to the ground.

 

People say he should have divorced her and not play stupid games. I don't think this was a game. He lined out for her his frustration and as you can see, instead of her taking note, she ridicules the list. Well, maybe he shouldn't have even bothered to do the list - knowing what she's like. But then, she'll probably be crying on some message board about how her husband just "out of the blue" cheated and/or dumped her. :rolleyes:

 

I guess another good reason for the "visual" from the spreadsheets is that women communicate differently from men. On my job one time, I circled in red and put sticky notes where on a subordinate's document I wanted her to review and rewrite. Instead of her taking note, all she turned it into is how her feeeelings were hurt. I don't argue feelings, I argue the facts. The spreadsheet was needed so he could focus his wife on what's going on, but again, she and others turned into "oooh, look at the baby crying over how he's not getting laid".

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Call me irrational, but is it possible that maybe both men and women are to blame for breakdowns in a relationship?

 

Ahem.....irrational, you know for most women, denial is not just a river in Egypt :rolleyes: There aren't many women that will even admit to 1/3 of the fault as to why a relationship broke down, they just always think their crap doesn't stink.

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todreaminblue
Ahem.....irrational, you know for most women, denial is not just a river in Egypt :rolleyes: There aren't many women that will even admit to 1/3 of the fault as to why a relationship broke down, they just always think their crap doesn't stink.

 

 

and you arent bias at all are you....i am sorry a woman did the wrong by you tayken i really am ....not all women are like your ex......just like not all men are like mine.....i think any relationship is a two way street.....it needs to be equal to work....and the bad ones...they arent equal...they dont work.and they end........deb

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and you arent bias at all are you....i am sorry a woman did the wrong by you tayken i really am ....not all women are like your ex......just like not all men are like mine.....i think any relationship is a two way street.....it needs to be equal to work....and the bad ones...they arent equal...they dont work.and they end........deb

 

 

Listen Sheila....it was actually me that ended the marriage (9yrs). If you've read my previous posts, you will know. I don't hide the fact that there was a fork in the road and am a guy that doesn't take BS or allows himself to be a slave to some woman.

 

She didn't like that, and decided to get vindictive, which is typical for most women scorned. So now you have the picture..Deb down under.

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When you give a training session, meeting, or presenting your case in a courtroom...visuals are essential. With a PowerPoint and/or Excel spreadsheet you can present images, graphics etc. that will "hit home" with your audience.

 

I believe the guy who did the spreadsheet was trying to put in black and white the bigger picture of how many times and for what reasons his wife was blowing him off in the bedroom.

 

Another reason I think he did it like that cuz you can tell from her responses, she was being unreasonable (i.e. saying she was "gross" from going to the gym then sleeping in her grossness - next to her husband, instead of having sex with him). I'm sure if he tried to "talk it out" without the spreadsheet, she would have gotten defensive and argued, argued, and argued....And, we know men hate arguing and/or having the dreaded "talk" with women.

 

I see. So the smart thing to do was sort of build a case against her and present that case in a spreadsheet...and make sure it was a really rock solid case so that she would be lost for words. How sexy and masterful is that? I'm sure she couldn't wait to get her kit off and vow that she would never again in her life find an excuse to avoid having sex with Mr Spreadsheets.

 

 

People say he should have divorced her and not play stupid games.

I don't think this was a game. He lined out for her his frustration and as you can see, instead of her taking note, she ridicules the list.

 

As anybody with the faintest sense of the ridiculous would do...

 

Well, maybe he shouldn't have even bothered to do the list

 

That would probably have been a good plan...

 

 

I guess another good reason for the "visual" from the spreadsheets is that women communicate differently from men. On my job one time, I circled in red and put sticky notes where on a subordinate's document I wanted her to review and rewrite. Instead of her taking note, all she turned it into is how her feeeelings were hurt. I don't argue feelings, I argue the facts. The spreadsheet was needed so he could focus his wife on what's going on, but again, she and others turned into "oooh, look at the baby crying over how he's not getting laid".

 

So, another good reason for the spreadsheets is that in terms of assisting effective communication between them, it will fail? For a lady of logic, Gloria, you're struggling a bit here.

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as far as a spreadsheet, it's possible he wanted to document and see if there really was as much of a lack of sex as he was thinking there is. that doesn't bother me.

 

Getting back to the point of the thread, I do feel that there is a general belief that what ever happens in a relationship is a man's fault.

 

The woman pulls away emotionally or sexually. Maybe the man was abusive or didn't meet her emotional needs.

 

The woman cheats, most likely the guy did something to cause her to cheat.

 

People rarely blame a woman for a relationship ending.

 

I believe that's the point that Gloria25 was trying to make.

 

yeah I have to agree with this. A lot of the times on LS the man is automatically asked basically "well what did you do to cause this" and man I remember one thread where the dude listed sooo many nice, thoughtful things he did for his wife or gf (iirc she no longer wanted to have sex with him), and people were still like "well you probably had an attitude when you bought her flowers" and "ew you're just trying to be nice for sex" and stuff.

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