How to handle OW (family member) trying to interact

[merrmeade]

I'm not sure whether to ask this in the Infidelity forum or OW/OM forum. It's a question about how to communicate with the OW, who is also a family member, not to contact me without giving her a handle to criticize me to other family members.

 

My sister-in-law, who was the OW in a LTA with my husband, seems to want back in my life. There's been complete NC after D-day two years ago between her and H. She and I talked about 5 times after D-day and I wrote her a couple of times. Then, nothing until she started contacting me again recently. Also, one of her sons sees my kids and us from time to time. My brother, her H, lives paralyzed in a nursing home and does not know about the A. I visit him when I know she will not be there.

 

She's sent a couple of friendly, cheery emails about family matters and invited me to stay at her house (shoot me now) for a funeral. I have tried to write her dozens of times and am never able to finish. I've been trying for four months. There are a number of issues for me in writing her. For one thing, anything to do with her is a 'trigger.' I get depressed and upset again. Bad. When we did speak after D-day the things she said were absolutely devastating. It particularly crushed me because I had loved and trusted her as a sister. She suddenly became angry with me (jealous? defensive?), always put H's interest ahead of mine and clearly had vilified me while hiding her feelings about my husband. She insisted their relationship was 90% friendship which they couldn't tell me about because I wouldn't understand since I didn't have any friends. It was really cruel. Even then, she actually wrote me at 1 mo. from Dday that we would be friends again one day and at six months offered her friendship to me and then decided I wasn't ready for it.

 

So here's the thing. I don't care what she thinks. I do care what she tells her sons, my nephews, and my cousins about me. I do not want to piss her off for that reason. As H says, she's nuts and will probably say she tried to befriend me and I just didn't accept. At stake also is access to the family home which my brother inherited. She wants us to go so her conscience will be assuaged. I would rather spend the weekend with a terrorist than with her.

 

So what's my dilemma? Why don't I just tell her to leave me alone? I do need to know important things about my brother if they come up. I also want to be sure she knows that neither H nor I think their relationship was even 1% okay. He's clear on that. 100% wrong if any of it was secret. 100% wrong if there was any sexual intimacy. Neither of us ever clarified this with her. (The 90% bull**** was their affair fog fairy tale that he dropped within a week following Dday.) I want to be clear with her that the nature of their relationship was so egregious and hurtful to me that I can never possibly trust her again. It is hard enough to work on my marriage; I have no interest or need to work on a relationship with her. Plus, I understand why she hurt me after I found out, but I would never put myself in a situation again where she could do that. Also, her sons seem to have the idea that somehow we have been in conflict, she and I. I told him I don't hate her, in fact I'd forgiven her or at least felt I understood her, but that is very different from pretending that everything is normal as if nothing had ever happened. That will never be possible - start over as if nothing had happened - and for her to try is a grave insult to me.

 

So if I say all this to her, my H thinks she won't get it, will see it as "vitriolic" and criticize me. My position is that she must know what I know. I was even thinking I should include a little summary of their relationship, including the average number of phone calls and text messages shared per day (3 and 17), what our attitude is about opposite sex friendships for married people, etc. She must know that H and I are on the same page and don't ascribe to any of the notions she maintained to justify some aspects of their closeness. But I need to do this without pissing her off. Isn't it possible? Because I truly wish her no ill will, have no rancor any more and have forgiven her for myself. But I cannot have my suffering and anguish dismissed. I don't expect everyone to sit around and feel sorry for me but I sure as hell will not abide letting her act like it was just a few little moments of flirtatious indiscretions that they succumbed to in their great neediness. I do not ask her to watch me suffer as H has done, but I need for her to know it was there.

 

Okay, that's enough. Any ideas? It's really, really hard for me to do it and get the outcome I want. Maybe impossible but I keep thinking I can....

Edited August 17, 2014 by merrmeade

[Mr. Lucky]

I would think your post here is a great start. Why not edit it down a bit and send it to her?

 

Was the A outed to other family members when it occurred?

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

Was sort of thinking the same thing. but then there's explaining why I feel the need to say all that. When I wrote her in the first two months, it was because I wanted her to know what I knew (which actually wasn't the whole story because H was trickle truthing me and she would not cross him, which I did not expect). I think because I was in shock it sounds almost obsessively logical, but instead she took it as "vitriolic" (her favorite word) and I think the reason is that she (they) would always say or do whatever is oblique in the name of tact, sensitivity and decorum which very easily becomes rationalizing, avoidance and denial. So when I said affair instead of a friendship, adultery instead of "losing it," lying instead of avoiding information that would be difficult it's "twisting the knife" for my husband and I think the same for her. Perhaps. I think - but not sure - that they're alike in some of the worst ways - quiet sainthood/narcissistic martyr complex that cannot bear to hear the truth that makes them just like everybody else. My husband has a very hard time with it, leading to toxic shame in his case. It's a matter for counseling. And with her, I think she's so used to being wealthy blue blood that it's like I'm calling her a slut in the town square. It burns her delicate ears and means I just don't understand. So I wrestle with that and I think it may be why H says don't say too much to her. He knows.

 

But do you see my point? How do I say I'm saying this and it's what it was and not the way you twist everything around so it doesn't look, sound or feel so bad you won't like it. He calls her nuts now, but clearly she is in deep denial. How do I tell her I'm just calling a spade a spade; it's you who calls it everything but what it is.

Edited August 17, 2014 by merrmeade

[Ronni_W]

I do not ask her to watch me suffer as H has done, but I need for her to know it was there.

Hugs, merrmeade. I get that you want her to understand, and perhaps even acknowledge, how much pain and suffering she caused you.

 

But it's also like trying to squeeze blood from a stone, isn't it? That's what you're asking yourself to do or at least to try to do. [because] As I I understand it, she hasn't yet shown that she's interested in helping you feel an iota better about what she did; she hasn't offered to try to understand, or say she's sorry, or make amends.

It seems that she wants to pretend it didn't happen, or wasn't really such a big deal and, especially, that it's time for everyone involved to just get over it...because SHE is ready to be "friends" again.

 

A person like this does not care if you did or did not suffer as the result her actions.

You will make yourself crazy in your efforts to try to get her to see what she did or to care that she hurt you. To her, your any efforts are going to be "vitriolic" or a show of lack of forgiveness or whatever other crap she might use to deflect and not take responsibility for her own harmful, destructive actions. (I don't call it 'denial' as much as people like this just don't give a crap.)

 

A different possibility may be to write her that you cannot be reconciled because of her lack of caring of her impact on you, your life. I would 'cc' the email to all adult family members (including nephews) so that she didn't end up "in control" of being able to tell them whatever suits her own agenda.

 

It's tough, though. In the past, I have also tried and tried and tried to explain my hurt feelings...but it was with the hope that the person would "get it" and then show some kind of understanding, kindness, remorse...to help with my own healing. BUT...when we're dealing with selfish, unfeeling, narcissistic-type people...it's just us banging our head against a wall and trying to get blood from a stone. Sadly and unfortunately.

[merrmeade]

That was very, very, very good RW and I am going to put it somewhere that I can read it easily and often.

 

I think you're right and it's why I keep getting hurt, why I'd put myself in a position to be hurt by her in the beginning. Like H, she is quiet, rarely reveals herself, and comes across as deeply interested in you and your problems when really she's just getting information that she uses later. With my very first confrontation, however, I saw the side I'd never known. She became the attorney (which she is), turning my questions back on me, accusing me of being friendless and judgmental. She said she was sorry once but not for what, and the closest she came to acknowledgement was a 3-line note: "Please forgive me. It was mutual. We were needy." On the phone, after I'd gushed, "Of course, I forgive you!" she proceeded to tell me that I owed her many apologies, that "it was fun," and that I'd taken advantage of my brother's generosity (staying in my parent's vacation home now owned by my brother). She was angry that I got to enjoy visits with my kids and her kids after D-day when she could not be there — as if I could enjoy anything. She had no clue what I'd gone through and started wailing, "What about me!" over and over.

 

I think maybe the key is that she expects to be forgiven. Like H, she makes it all about her not being a good person. And she wants to blame me if we aren't seeing each other and be able to say she tried.

[Ronni_W]

Thanks for your kind comments, merrmeade; I really do appreciate it.

 

To my mind, you are better off this woman NOT knowing or understanding how deeply she hurt, impacted, affected you...it would only be something (else) that she could use against you...to hurt you with...in the future, if/when it becomes her wish or whim to do so.

 

There also seems to be some "loss of contact with reality" on her part...in which case, it wouldn't be that she feels that she needs to be forgiven so much as a (delusional) notion that it's just time for it not to be an issue anymore.

That is, she doesn't appear capable of 'higher level' qualities like empathy, compassion...which would be critical for her to be able to understand your pain and anguish, and offer you her genuine remorse for all you lost and suffered on account of her attitude, actions, words.

 

At some point, she simply isn't worth your bother; she doesn't have anything positive or restorative to offer you. Or, if she does have it, she does not want to give it to you for whatever reason(s) she's made up in her head...making her only all the more not worth your bother.

 

In my case, it certainly would have been nice and helpful and healing if the other person did eventually get it...or if there was at least some indication that they were actually trying to. But after a couple of years I just decided to stop struggling and fighting for what, really, is an impossibility with this particular person.

 

It still sucks, though.

[merrmeade]

Thanks for your kind comments, merrmeade; I really do appreciate it.

 

To my mind, you are better off this woman NOT knowing or understanding how deeply she hurt, impacted, affected you...it would only be something (else) that she could use against you...to hurt you with...in the future, if/when it becomes her wish or whim to do so.

 

There also seems to be some "loss of contact with reality" on her part...in which case, it wouldn't be that she feels that she needs to be forgiven so much as a (delusional) notion that it's just time for it not to be an issue anymore.

That is, she doesn't appear capable of 'higher level' qualities like empathy, compassion...which would be critical for her to be able to understand your pain and anguish, and offer you her genuine remorse for all you lost and suffered on account of her attitude, actions, words.

 

At some point, she simply isn't worth your bother; she doesn't have anything positive or restorative to offer you. Or, if she does have it, she does not want to give it to you for whatever reason(s) she's made up in her head...making her only all the more not worth your bother.

 

In my case, it certainly would have been nice and helpful and healing if the other person did eventually get it...or if there was at least some indication that they were actually trying to. But after a couple of years I just decided to stop struggling and fighting for what, really, is an impossibility with this particular person.

 

It still sucks, though.

 

I needed to hear this from more people than the one therapist we saw for 5 weeks in 2012 (looking for a new one) - the part about I cannot change her and she's not worth it.

 

The loss of contact with reality is what H says. So, you get it. She had a fully realized co-dependence going at 3 calls/17 texts @ day with H advising her on every aspect of her life. That she's out of touch is also seen in her contention that she and I share this co-dependence. (Therapist said I'm the opposite.)

 

I can't "win," of course, and need her to feel that she hasn't "lost," whatever I do, especially if I cc other family members. Not sure about that piece.

[Ronni_W]

I can't "win," of course, and need her to feel that she hasn't "lost," whatever I do, especially if I cc other family members. Not sure about that piece.

I am not getting the bolded bit on two levels:

1. What is your investment in her not feeling that she has "lost"? (Why do you care, on way or the other, how she feels?)

2. What is there for her to "lose"...and under which scenario might she lose it?

 

What I want to ask is: Is it that you want to try to please/appease/placate a selfish, emotionally unintelligent, delusional person...even at a (high) cost to yourself; your happiness, inner peace, etc.?

 

Similarly, when you say that you can't "win"...Why not?...and...What specifically is it that you're thinking about that you can't win?

From my perspective, I want to say, "OF COURSE you can win!!!" But...what I'm seeing that you can win is not necessarily what you have as your own goals to win. (If that makes sense?)

Edited August 17, 2014 by Ronni_W
grammar

[merrmeade]

I am not getting the bolded bit on two levels:

1. What is your investment in her not feeling that she has "lost"? (Why do you care, on way or the other, how she feels?)

2. What is there for her to "lose"...and under which scenario might she lose it?

 

What I want to ask is: Is it that you want to try to please/appease/placate a selfish, emotionally unintelligent, delusional person...even at a (high) cost to yourself; your happiness, inner peace, etc.?

 

Similarly, when you say that you can't "win"...Why not?...and...What specifically is it that you're thinking about that you can't win?

From my perspective, I want to say, "OF COURSE you can win!!!" But...what I'm seeing that you can win is not necessarily what you have as your own goals to win. (If that makes sense?)

 

No, I don't want to placate her. I want her not to blame me to others and continue trying to malign and demonize me. Mostly I think they ridicule me. For example, I tried to talk to her son last week when we ran into each other at my brother's, asking him if he was okay with my calling to know if his mother might be there when I plan to go. He said he understood; it's better to avoid "conflict" - which blew me away because it implies that we are mutually culpable for something. My conversation with him was unsatisfactory. I sounded whiney and weak. It would be possible to say the problem is my inability to deal with it or something. He ended, saying I remind him of his brother (whom we all know he dislikes and considers impulsive and difficult.)

 

So my concern is not feeling as if she "loses" because I fear more retribution, more derogatory characterizations of me. My daughter has asked me to tell her when I write that her hesitation in being with her cousins is their tendency to ridicule and treat me or talk about me derogatorily. Granted, some of that started a long time ago with my own brothers. However, I learned that it was more my SIL who complained in her emails to H about my family's "lack of boundaries." My parents were extraordinary, exuberant human beings who proudly articulated and lived their values, which included constant learning, tolerance for difference and a sense of play as spontaneous as it was intelligent. (Sadly, their legacy is left to her to interpret to my brother's children.) Her problem with me apparently - and the comparison my nephew is making with his brother - is our tendency to be just like that.

 

If she perceives that I look better, i.e., "win," she will smolder resentment and more besmirching!

 

I would think your post here is a great start. Why not edit it down a bit and send it to her?

 

Was the A outed to other family members when it occurred?

 

Mr. Lucky

My H and I told our three grown children. I told a cousin later who had often been present when H used to Skype me from SIL's house while remodeling. I was hoping for a sympathetic family member to confide in since I didn't see any use in telling my brother, the other BS. I think SIL finally told her sons. My daughter alluded to the A, she said, to my other brother's daughter. As far as I know, that's it.

Edited August 17, 2014 by merrmeade

[Ronni_W]

Ah, okay...I think I get it: maybe always but definitely currently she is just an all-around toxic person and has influenced/poisoned (some of) her children's ways of perceiving and treating people? (Is that it, more-or-less?)

 

It's natural to care about how the people we care about perceive us. We want them to know, especially, our kind, positive, nice-and-good side. She is precluding/preventing your nephews and other family members from seeing you as you truly are.

 

I've been on the side of people having wrong, distorted, negative impressions of me...basically, she is scape-goating you for her lack and failings and mistakes.

At the end of the day, the only thing is to not care about it when other people have the wrong impression of us...no matter how much we care that they'd have an accurate, more positive view. I just had to learn to content myself with knowing who I am, what I stand for...and find my esteem and dignity and self-respect in my own knowing of me, and regardless of the crap that others were spouting about me. I can't control it.

 

I think I have a sense of what you're going through; a smidgen of a sense. Feel free to PM me, if/when it feels that may contribute something positive.

 

 

Btw, your parents sound wonderful! It's sad and disappointing that not all their grandchildren will know and be able to remember them like that; with their uplifting and inclusive values. Obviously, though, she never saw the positive aspects. That's her loss and just a lack and failing on her part.

 

 

Hugs. I know that it can really suck when it starts to suck...not that it is necessarily a constant thing.

[BetrayedH]

In these situations, there is no winning. The person who cares the least, wins. She is a narcisist and you are an empath. The fact that you care what she (or others) think makes her the 'winner' by default. That's the game they play.

 

Sadly, the more you read on NPD, the more you'll find that there is no curing them and frankly, no real way to tolerate them in a healthy fashion either (because they constantly cross boundaries that you shouldn't tolerate). The only way to deal with them is to remove them from your life.

 

Not so easy when it's family, huh? This sums up the challenge that I have with my exwife and her family. I have to coparent with her for another ten years (and that's if my youngest's graduation from HS counts as some magical separation). There's no winning to be done, no real separation to be had, and no way to tolerate their piss-poor behavior.

 

Quit trying to find the answer thru her. I think the only thing you can do is separate yourself from her and to otherwise feel free to bond and speak the truth to those who matter most to you. The others, you just have to let go. As they say, the people who matter will understand and those that don't understand, don't matter. That's as close to a win as you're going to get.

 

BTW, great posts from Ronnie. Same wavelength, I think.

[merrmeade]

In these situations, there is no winning. The person who cares the least, wins. She is a narcisist and you are an empath. The fact that you care what she (or others) think makes her the 'winner' by default. That's the game they play.

 

Sadly, the more you read on NPD, the more you'll find that there is no curing them and frankly, no real way to tolerate them in a healthy fashion either (because they constantly cross boundaries that you shouldn't tolerate). The only way to deal with them is to remove them from your life.

 

Not so easy when it's family, huh? This sums up the challenge that I have with my exwife and her family. I have to coparent with her for another ten years (and that's if my youngest's graduation from HS counts as some magical separation). There's no winning to be done, no real separation to be had, and no way to tolerate their piss-poor behavior.

 

Quit trying to find the answer thru her. I think the only thing you can do is separate yourself from her and to otherwise feel free to bond and speak the truth to those who matter most to you. The others, you just have to let go. As they say, the people who matter will understand and those that don't understand, don't matter. That's as close to a win as you're going to get.

 

BTW, great posts from Ronnie. Same wavelength, I think.

 

Yes, Ronni has been amazingly attuned and articulate. Very grateful. More voices helps, too. My husband keeps telling me this, too, begging even to let her go that she's not worth it and will not 'get it' - and he should know!

 

I'm trying to write it today. He and I have an appointment with a therapist this afternoon to 'interview' and find the right one - at last. Lot of work to do. Thank you both.

[merrmeade]

I'm trying to write it today..

My brother's health is failing and I heard yesterday he's got pneumonia. My priorities just changed. I'll probably have to communicate with her soon and so am thinking about this a different way...

[Ronni_W]

merrmeade,

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

He, and you also, are in my thoughts.

 

Ronni

[merrmeade]

merrmeade,

I'm sorry to hear about your brother.

He, and you also, are in my thoughts.

 

Ronni

 

Thank you very much, RW.