StoneCold Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 http://www.thestar.com/news/article/940665--officer-apologizes-for-sluts-comment?bn=1 ....and he got in trouble for this??? What is this world coming to...this political correctness is killing us Link to post Share on other sites
ShatteredReality Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Wow....are people really that sensitive?? I mean the word slut is tossed around on TV all the time and no one thinks anything of it. I mean...I am not saying that anybody asks to be sexually assaulted or that it's ever ok...but he's got a point...dressing like a tramp or a slut is only going to make someone with strong sexual desires and the right psychosis less able to control himself. That's one of the biggest reasons I hate so much the little tiny skirts ppl send their little girls to school wearing...a child molestor (not like they have it stamped on their forehead) is going to see that and it's just going to make his itch worse... This guy maybe could have been told to tone down the language for the pansies out there just to ensure the message got through and wasn't tossed aside and ignored based on some lame technicality, but he shouldn't have gotten into trouble. Link to post Share on other sites
sweetjasmine Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 but he's got a point...dressing like a tramp or a slut is only going to make someone with strong sexual desires and the right psychosis less able to control himself. He sort of doesn't. The vast majority of rapes are pre-meditated and committed by someone the victim knows. It's hardly ever a guy losing his mind because a woman wore a mini-skirt. Telling women that they can avoid sexual assault and rape by dressing like nuns does them a disservice and could potentially put them in danger by making them think that they'll be fine as long as they don't dress sexy. Rapists don't do it because they lose control - they do it because they're entirely in control and get off on the power rush. The friends of mine who have been the victims of sexual assault were in situations that fit the common pattern: guy(s) who they knew and who hung around waiting for the right moment. For one friend who managed to fight the guy off, she had casually mentioned that her boyfriend was going to be out of town, and the would-be rapist coworker followed her home, knocked on the door, and forced his way in. It had nothing to do with what she was wearing. He was waiting for the right opportunity to make a move. Link to post Share on other sites
xpaperxcutx Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 There is a reason why certain words and terms are derogatory. I understand his intentions but the way he went about getting his message across was inappropriate. How does one influence others to take a course of action? In a well- mannered conduct that doesn't imply one needs to stoop to a low level. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Rape has nothing to do with how a woman dresses. A woman should be able to dress light on a hot day without worrying if she is going to be raped or not. Rape is about power not sex anyway. It's not about how horny a man is. Link to post Share on other sites
ShatteredReality Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) He sort of doesn't. The vast majority of rapes are pre-meditated and committed by someone the victim knows. It's hardly ever a guy losing his mind because a woman wore a mini-skirt. Telling women that they can avoid sexual assault and rape by dressing like nuns does them a disservice and could potentially put them in danger by making them think that they'll be fine as long as they don't dress sexy. Rapists don't do it because they lose control - they do it because they're entirely in control and get off on the power rush. I meant no disrespect - wasn't saying this would apply to all situations either. There will be times, though, where a man who knows a woman and wants to have sex with her will use what she's wearing as an excuse to attack her - saying she was toying with him or playing with him. Also, even in a power struggle situation with a complete stranger - that same sick self justification could potentially apply. It doesn't mean don't dress sexy...women can dress sexy with out showing everything she got to everyone willing to look. And as I stated before - I never condone rape or sexual assault - I don't blame the victim - and I have been attacked before and know other women who have been - regardless of what I or they were wearing. I'm just saying, I see his point...if you want to take precautions...what you wear could be one of them. Edited October 9, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Fix quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kamille Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 A woman doesn't get raped because of how she dresses. A woman gets raped... when another human being commits a crime by raping her. It's as simple as that and that's why this officer's comments are ignorant. He's mis-assigning responsibility for the act of rape. The victim isn't responsible: the rapist is. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
O'Malley Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) He's perpetuating a long refuted rape myth. He's doing a disservice to both genders, since men have been the victims of sexual assault, and women have been perpetrators. Appearance or sexual background does not somehow trigger an individual to rape. The rapist has long held motivations of dominance, and as sweetjasmine notes, selects and attacks victims who are distracted, unable to give consent, or have unfortunately placed their trust in him. Women in countries with more restrictive rules about their appearance still are sexually assaulted, often at higher rates than those countries with liberal attitudes towards appearance. Edited February 17, 2011 by O'Malley Link to post Share on other sites
Jannah Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 http://www.thestar.com/news/article/940665--officer-apologizes-for-sluts-comment?bn=1 ....and he got in trouble for this??? What is this world coming to...this political correctness is killing us How about this.... Would it be acceptable for a parent to call their daughter a slut or to refer as such? I certainly hope not..... As such, part of a Police Officer's role is to ensure the overall safety of his/her community. That includes setting a good example. Link to post Share on other sites
OldSkool Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 In the Muslim community, the Hajib is supposed to do exactly what is being debated here. Does it work? Ask a Bosnian. Link to post Share on other sites
SincereOnlineGuy Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 sexual background does not somehow trigger an individual to rape. Ahhhhhhhhhh yes, the person who believes the choir boy raised in an angelic environment is just as likely to commit rape as is the like-aged person who was horrifically sexually abused throughout his childhood. It's pure brilliance! Link to post Share on other sites
Author StoneCold Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 Somehow I knew I'd get these responses Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Unfortunately, he is completely wrong. Back where I come from, many rape victims are either schoolgirls in uniform (and trust me, our uniform is nowhere NEAR 'slutty'), or Muslim women covered from head to toe. I think he deserves it, not because of the use of the word 'slut', but simply because of the sexist, patriarchical attitude that it's a woman's 'fault' she got raped. Rape is the committer's fault, plain and simple. No excuses for the people who perform the act, not even if their victim was prancing around nude. Can't stand it? Pop into a toilet and masturbate, or go pay for a hooker. Link to post Share on other sites
PurpleReign Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I DON'T GIVE A FRICK WHAT I'M WEARING, NO ONE HAS ANY RIGHT TO TOUCH ME WITHOUT MY PERMISSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ONLY a WEAK, PATHETIC, MAMMA'S BOY would even ENTERTAIN that idea. Link to post Share on other sites
Author StoneCold Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know I started this thread but I'm going to hold my tongue on this because it will just be a slug fest where one side wont understand the other Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 *shrugs* Should have thought of that BEFORE starting a controversial thread and then ignoring any opinions (which are 100% as of now) that disagree with yours. You can't finish a debate, why start it? Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 There is nothing to understand. You know I am not Mr feminist but a woman should not be raped based on how she dresses. Blame the rapists and hold them accountable. Once again this is an example of a society that does not want to blame person who commited the action. Link to post Share on other sites
Author StoneCold Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 *shrugs* Should have thought of that BEFORE starting a controversial thread and then ignoring any opinions (which are 100% as of now) that disagree with yours. You can't finish a debate, why start it? See thats part of the problem... how exactly do you know they disagree from mine? ...I was just testing the waters to see the responses and it became clear that we wouldn't be arguing the same topic. so I withdraw so as not to waste anybody's time Link to post Share on other sites
Duckduckgoose Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Police say dumb **** all the time. They are humans just like everyone else. Link to post Share on other sites
Scottdmw Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I really think there could be a happy medium between these two views. Whenever ANYONE commits a crime, of whatever type, it is always a criminal's fault. It is never the victim's fault, no matter what they do. That said, no one has a problem with advising people to lock the doors of their houses when they leave to reduce the chance that they will be robbed. No one says that that is blaming the victim of robberies. People commit rape for a variety of reasons--we do ourselves a disservice when we try to simplify issues like this and make them black-and-white to fit a political ideology or an academic theory. Yes, probably most rapes are about power, are premeditated, and have little to do with how the victim dresses on a given day. But, I think it's going too far to say that that is always the case, that it never happens that a rape occurs spontaneously, or that a rapist never selects a victim he doesn't know based on what she's wearing. If a rich guy flashes tons of gold jewelry while walking alone on the streets of Detroit at night, and gets robbed, would people really have a problem saying that he did something foolish? Would they talk about how anyone who robs him must've been planning to rob him anyway? Is there never any idea of a “crime of opportunity”? Can we not then also admit that a woman who walks around in “slutty” dress in the same rather extreme situation has done something foolish? Yes, in a perfect world both of these people would be completely safe. But, we are doing these two people a strong disservice when we insist based on a political idealistic viewpoint or an academic theory that they should be able to do what they are doing without anyone suggesting otherwise. Yes, in an ideal world that is true. But given the world we live in anyone who really cares about helping these people would suggest that maybe they should be a little more careful. Anyone who tells these two people that they are fine doing what they are doing is not interested in helping these people, but interested in promoting a political viewpoint only. Please do not read this as I am somehow suggesting that all women should dress in burquas, or not dress sexy, or whatever. Just be reasonable. Everything that a person does is a spectrum of risk and reward, and it is reasonable to take reasonable risks. If a woman goes to a party with friends and dresses “slutty” the risk that she will bring on a rape is very very small—kind of like the risk of getting struck by lightning from carrying an umbrella. If she does the same thing at a drunken college party, alone, with no one she knows around, she is taking a somewhat larger risk. Again, in an ideal world that would not be true. But, we do harm to that woman when we try to make the actual world fit political ideals and not warn her that she is taking more of a risk than she maybe should. Scott Link to post Share on other sites
O'Malley Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Ahhhhhhhhhh yes, the person who believes the choir boy raised in an angelic environment is just as likely to commit rape as is the like-aged person who was horrifically sexually abused throughout his childhood. It's pure brilliance! I never made that claim in my post; it's your projection. It's a rape myth that the appearance and sexual background of the victims somehow incites a perpetrator to rape. To sexually assault someone, even having been the victim of sexual abuse themselves, still is a choice. It's in no way a legitimate defense. Police say dumb **** all the time. They are humans just like everyone else. And while I agree that people say stupid crap, he is in a position to investigate sexual assaults. He could believe that the victim somehow incited the perpetrator to rape her, by dressing or acting in a manner that fits his definition of a 'slut'. He could make a comment to a victim about what she/he did 'wrong' to cause someone to assault them. There's a valid concern about the bias he would bring while investigating this type of crime. Edited February 18, 2011 by O'Malley Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I know I started this thread but I'm going to hold my tongue on this because it will just be a slug fest where one side wont understand the other So, you're going to complain now because no one agrees with your point of view, when you even say that you even knew this before you posted? That makes no sense It also has never made any sense to me to blame the victim for the crime. Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If a rich guy flashes tons of gold jewelry while walking alone on the streets of Detroit at night, and gets robbed, would people really have a problem saying that he did something foolish? Would they talk about how anyone who robs him must've been planning to rob him anyway? Is there never any idea of a “crime of opportunity”? I'm not sure your comparison holds here, in two ways. First, my guess would be that the 'opportunity crimes' are much more highly represented when it comes to robbery and someone flashing their money, than what is the case with rape. I don't know the theft and robbery stats, but I've repeatedly seen stats which say that rape conducted by strangers account for only a very small (much less than ten per cent) proportion of the total number of rape cases. I've never seen ANY research which supports a correlation between 'slutty' dress and rape, but I've seen the opposite. For example, a 2008 report by the Centre for Women's Rights in Egypt (a country where one would expect 'slutty dress' to be an important factor) showed that incidents of sexual harassment did not appear to have any connection to dress style, as three quarters of the victims had been veiled at the time of being assaulted. I would guess that the correlation between flashing your wallet or fancy camera in a crowded tourist spot in a city and being mugged is statistically significant in a way that the dress code/rape relationship isn't. The second way in which the slutty-dress argument is different from flashing a gold watch, is that the 'slutty dress' argument has been used for centuries as a patriarchal mode of argumentation for justifying men's sexual assaults. Light dress = triggers men reactions in ways that they simply can't control = the woman's responsibility that she was harassed/ assaulted/ whatever. It's an age old discourse of control and it's not to be tolerated, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
OldSkool Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If a rich guy flashes tons of gold jewelry while walking alone on the streets of Detroit at night, and gets robbed, would people really have a problem saying that he did something foolish? Would they talk about how anyone who robs him must've been planning to rob him anyway? Is there never any idea of a “crime of opportunity”? Can we not then also admit that a woman who walks around in “slutty” dress in the same rather extreme situation has done something foolish? Yes, in a perfect world both of these people would be completely safe. But, we are doing these two people a strong disservice when we insist based on a political idealistic viewpoint or an academic theory that they should be able to do what they are doing without anyone suggesting otherwise. Yes, in an ideal world that is true. But given the world we live in anyone who really cares about helping these people would suggest that maybe they should be a little more careful. Anyone who tells these two people that they are fine doing what they are doing is not interested in helping these people, but interested in promoting a political viewpoint only. I hear your point, but I completely disagree with it. You are advocating a type of social engineering. A viewpoint of "this is a dangerous world, so we had all better change our behavior", a slippery slope to say the least. A man should be able to flaunt his wealth if he wants, and a woman should be able to flaunt her body (as long as it doesn't violate decency laws) without fear that someone else is going to try to take it away from them. Both have (ostensibly) worked hard for what they have. They have the right to enjoy it as they see fit, regardless of how jealous and bitter other members of society are. When I used to teach firearms safety classes, we always had an inside joke. "Nobody ever raped a .38" or a Robert Heinlein stated "An armed society is a polite society" Political viewpoint, maybe but no less so than advocating that we all become scared little mice who are afraid to show the world what we have worked so hard to achieve. Link to post Share on other sites
Scottdmw Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'm not sure your comparison holds here, in two ways. First, my guess would be that the 'opportunity crimes' are much more highly represented when it comes to robbery and someone flashing their money, than what is the case with rape. I don't know the theft and robbery stats, but I've repeatedly seen stats which say that rape conducted by strangers account for only a very small (much less than ten per cent) proportion of the total number of rape cases. I've never seen ANY research which supports a correlation between 'slutty' dress and rape, but I've seen the opposite. For example, a 2008 report by the Centre for Women's Rights in Egypt (a country where one would expect 'slutty dress' to be an important factor) showed that incidents of sexual harassment did not appear to have any connection to dress style, as three quarters of the victims had been veiled at the time of being assaulted. I would guess that the correlation between flashing your wallet or fancy camera in a crowded tourist spot in a city and being mugged is statistically significant in a way that the dress code/rape relationship isn't. The second way in which the slutty-dress argument is different from flashing a gold watch, is that the 'slutty dress' argument has been used for centuries as a patriarchal mode of argumentation for justifying men's sexual assaults. Light dress = triggers men reactions in ways that they simply can't control = the woman's responsibility that she was harassed/ assaulted/ whatever. It's an age old discourse of control and it's not to be tolerated, IMO. I agree that the large majority of rapes are not committed by strangers, but by someone the woman knows. That said, that particular line of argument does not eliminate the possibility that someone the woman already knows might decide to rape her based on what she's wearing. I'm not saying it happens often, but it could. I did spend a few minutes looking for evidence that dress influences probability of being raped. It's kind of interesting. There are many many studies that talk about whether people _think_ dress should influence rape, ie polls of men that ask them whether if a woman dresses like a slut she is asking to be raped. For me that is neither here nor there. I would like to see a study of actual rape victims that compares what they were wearing at the time of assault, to see whether there is a correlation. Your study from Egypt would seem to support your view, although I would hesitate to generalize it to the US based on radically different cultures. Also, I am in no way arguing that slutty dress is a definitive cause or even a strong cause, only that it can be in some cases. The Egypt study would not rule that out. You may be right that opportunity crimes are more common in the robbery scenario. But. . . . seriously. Let's say that your sister or best female friend made a practice of walking around the streets of a city in a bikini by herself at night. Would you really not say something to her, something to the effect that even though it should not matter and you think it usually doesn't matter, she is going too far and taking a foolish risk? Maybe that example is too extreme. What would you say if your sister or best female friend made a practice of attending drunken college fraternity parties by herself wearing “slutty” clothing? Would you suggest that maybe that wasn't a good idea? I just feel like we have to get beyond this simplified notion that because we don't want to let men off the hook for responsibility we are completely unable to admit that there are things women can do to keep themselves more safe. I'm sure you're right that these kind of arguments have been inappropriately used by men to rationalize and justify their assaults. I fully agree with you that that is not right. Nothing justifies assaults. But, if I am right and there is a grain of truth in these arguments, it is not wise to ignore that grain of truth simply because people have misused it. Scott Link to post Share on other sites
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