My Wife Wants to Separate, I Don't

[cphillips]

Hello all, first post her but been reading a while. Things in my life took a turn for the worse this week and i dont really have freinds to talk to, so i need somewhere to vent.

 

My wife and i have been married for 5 years, we got married when we were 18 and things have been up and down the whole time. We have a 3 year old son together. I will get right into the major part of our issues though. I was raised in a very old fashioned family. My dad was the boss, and my mom knew it and was ok with it. He made the money, the decisions, and was the leader of the family. My wifes mother was the stronger/more vocal person in her family growing up. Her parents worked together on a lot of stuff, but they didnt have a necessarily great marriage either. So that is were we start. In our marriage i have tried to be my dad. It hasnt worked. My mother was uneducated, and needed that structure from my dad in her life. My wife is a strong independent woman, and she doesnt really need me for anything. I have been rather controlling, rude, selfish, and i have a fairly bad temper. I have never hit her, and she has never hit me. I have never cheated and to the best of my knowledge neither has she. She told me a couple of months ago she wasnt happy, and wanted us to go to marriage counseling or separate, i reluctantly agreed to counseling. I didnt really put much into it. Tried to "one up her" while we were in there. If she would say something bad about me i would say something worse about her. We quit going, but my wife kept going by herself. She later told me this counselor told her to quit trying, that she could never please me, and that the minute we walked in she didnt think there was hope for us. I think that is BS. But that doesnt really matter i dont guess. In the past month or 2 i have realized my shortcomings, and have been aggressively attacking them. Trying to help more around the house, not being so bossy, and i have tried to be the man i should have been from the start. I admit now things are 98% my fault.

 

Fast forward to last week. She left to go to New Orleans with her group from school. She is a Social Work major. This is a trip 3 months ago i told her she couldnt go on. She was really mad, and i made her feel bad about wanting to leave her son and husband at home. Well another opening came up and she told me she was going, so she went. While she was gone i got a letter in the mail from the county housing authority about her apartment being open in mid July. I questioned her on it and asked if she was moving out and she told me it was something for school. i didnt think she was telling the truth. The next day i got online and went to type in yahoo.com into the address bar. I hit enter on the first drop down box, and the page it brought me to wasnt where i expected. It was a yahoo answer question about "why am i attracted to older men" I was shocked. So clicked the history bar, and she had been asking this question everywhere. Is this normal, or how to tell if a older man is interested in you. I asked her about it and she laughed and said it was just something her and her friend were wondering. This was all while she was in New Orleans. When she got back i asked her when she planned on letting the housing authority know if she was going to take the apartment. So she admitted it, she was moving out. I didnt know what to say or do, but over the last month or so i have realized what a mess i have made of things, and i have been trying really hard to make them better. She asked me to move to my parents until she left, but i said no. She said ok, but i am still moving out. So i tried to beg, plead, bargain with her to stay. That isnt working. I know i ruined my marriage, i feel horrible. I have pushed her away, and nothing i can say will get her back. I feel like a failure, and a jerk. Sometimes i feel like she is going to say lets give it one more chance, but then she backs out. I know i have hurt her, and i now realize i cant be the kind of Father/Husband my dad was. That isnt what she needs. So now i am trying to give her space, and to quit begging and pleading with her. She is moving out on out 5 year Anniversary, thats when the apartment is open. It is only 3 blocks down the road in the tiny town we live in. She said she still loves me, but resents me. She isnt filing for divorce right away, but doesnt want to put effort into working it out. She said she wants to watch me and see how i handle this. She may give it another try, and she may not. What do i do? How can i try to show her i can be better when she isnt here? She said she thinks i can change, and she believes people do, but she doesnt think i can change completely forever. She thinks i will go back to the old me. I am 100% committed to showing her i was wrong and that i dont want to be the person anymore.

 

Anyone have thoughts/opinions. Is there any way our marriage can be saved??

[worldgonewrong]

~sigh~

Well, welcome to this forum, even though I know you wish you weren't here. (None of us want to be here, obviously.)

First of all, read the other threads here to get a sense of the similar roads that people like you (and me) have gone down. It's eye-opening. You're not alone.

Secondly, I advise that you not work overtime on trying to impress her. Work on yourself for yourself, first and foremost. If she likes the changes, hooray. But even if she's oblivious to the changes, you still come out of this with a renewed sense of self and purpose.

Everyone f*cks up in marriages. The true test of strength is what you both do when the rough times happen. Here's a rough time, you're in the thick of it. And as hard as it is to admit, you cannot make her love you. It's the whole "you can lead a horse to water" thing. But you can affect changes that at least put you on solid ground.

The fact that you're expressing the will to change and you're upfront about your shortcomings says a lot about you -- that you can change things. But ultimately, it takes two to tango, so proceed with the idea in mind that you're going to be a better person FOR YOU, regardless if she notices or not.

[Le Corb]

Its good that she said she wants to watch you and see how you handle this. Certainly a lot better than my case, I am still going through hell. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t275030/ I never had a chance, or even a chance to say goodbye.

 

Be strong and be nice to people around you, its helpful considering the apartment is only 3 blocks away in your small town, so I guess people know each other well, she needs to hear it from other people, and sees for herself, do not say to her that you have changed etc. it is not going to work. STOP begging, pleading, bargaining. It will NOT work, she will see as a weak person, not the opposite, the more you do it, the further it drives her away. I know it is soul destroying, you think you have failed everything, you are a jerk, worthless, but you need to be confident, people like confident people, if you want her back you have to be confident, even if you have to fake it.

 

Who is looking after your son? because of that you guys will see each other one way or another, be a strong and pleasant person to be around with, when you are with friends. Show her that people appreciate you and that they enjoy having you around, she will see you in a completely new light for herself, she may think you are a good person that she cannot afford to let go the relationship. This way you remind her that what a great and upbeat person you were when you fell in love through your ACTIONS, NOT by telling her or texting her or reminding the good times you had. Do not do that.

 

And do NOT call her unless you have to, certainly do NOT text her, if she sees you as controlling, she is expecting you to call her and text her all the time, I know it is hard, I was terrible at it, but in my case there was no hope anyway. Maintain minimal contact, and keep the conversations SHORT, and straight to the point, and YOU should always the conversation not her, do NOT jump to the phone as soon as it rings, leave it for a while or just let it go to the answer machine, she will become curious and wondering why you are not answering, considering now she is expecting the opposite, I know it is hard, but you have to do it. Only contact her at appropriate time, don't call her during work hours or after middle night when you are drunk at the local bar.

 

Change your appearance a bit, then she can see some changes physically, do not go crazy with your new style, just be sensible, ask some of your lady friends to go shopping with you, and talk to them about this.

 

And try to support and respect your wifes decision, like I said before she is expecting you to do the opposite, asking her to come back, stop her from moving out etc. by doing the opposite you are showing her that you are not controlling and selfish. Be independent for a while, and most of all be patient! slowly you can show her the changes. Do NOT be needy or act desperate, it does not make you attractive in any ways.

 

Tell her that you need time to find a way to better yourself too, to discover where you did wrong in the relationship, and what lessons can be learned. Admit that what you did wrong, and be supportive of her, even if it means helping her to move.

 

I wish my wife ask about counseling, or even talked to me, none of what I said would work in my case, you are lucky, I hope you can save your marriage, sounds like you truly love her, I believe everyone deserves a second chance. I wish you all the best.

[worldgonewrong]

Good, solid advice, Le Corb.

[Le Corb]

Tell her that you are actually doing all this for YOURSELF, and be a better person. Be apologetic and drop your ego, especially since she viewed you as controlling, rude and selfish.

 

It does not sound good that she was asking questions like "why am i attracted to older men", perhaps she is not seeing anyone else, I hope not in your case, maybe she is just thinking about alternatives, you married when you were young, perhaps by older men she may be attractive to more mature people, show her that you have those qualities, obvious she did not see them in you, LISTEN to her, listen to what she has to say, and be emotionally available to her, do not argue even if you disagree, be supportive and say things like "it must be so hard for you", "what can I do to make you feel better", things along those lines, I love you will not work at this stage, stop saying that unless the time is right.

 

I repeat, "Stay away from your phone", put a note on it if you have to, do not stalk her, it may be hard in your small town, but do not.

 

Its great that you can still see her. Everything is hopeless for me, I do not know how am I going to get through this, my whole world is coming down, I have lost everything, not just my wife, but also my job, my health, soon the house, I thought about the easy way out many many times, I still do, I believe you will go through this my friend, hope she will come back to your life.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Le Corb

[Surfer203]

Le Corb .. you are giving some great advice, look what you have learned. Don't give up, you have not lost everything. You are alive right? Each day is a new one, new opportunities lurk around every corner. This will be a rebirth for you I am sure of it. Don't give up ever.

[Le Corb]

Thanks for your encouraging words Surfer. I really appreciate it.

 

I am still having difficulties linguistically as a result of the shock, still not doing great mathematically, cannot even work out the small changes when I buy coffee.

 

My apologies about the typos and the grammatical errors in my previous post, its really strange that I just left words out without knowing, my brain is still recovering from the shock, in the first week when I was in hospital I could not talk or read, drink or eat, walk or sleep.

 

It has been a discovery process, people here have been wonderful, I am still alive, although it is hard to get out of bed everyday and face life, I am doing everything I can. Sometimes its just so hard, closure just seems so comforting more than anything else, then I think about art, music, history, books and all the beautiful things around us, it helps me to get through a little, one note, one word at the time.

 

Please let me repost the first post. Sorry about it again.

 

"Be strong and be nice to people around you, its helpful considering the apartment is only 3 blocks away in your small town, so I guess people know each other well, she needs to hear it from other people, and see for herself, do not say to her that you have changed etc. it is not going to work. STOP begging, pleading, bargaining. It will NOT work, she will see you as a weak person, not the opposite, the more you do it, the further you drive her away. I know it is soul destroying, you think that you have failed everything, you are a jerk, worthless, but you need to be confident, people like confident people, if you want her back you have to be confident, even if you have to fake it.

 

Who is looking after your son? because of that you guys will see each other one way or another, be a strong and pleasant person to be around with, when you are with friends. Show her that people appreciate you and that they enjoy having you around, she will see you in a completely new light for herself, she may think you are a good person that she cannot afford to let go the relationship. This way you remind her that what a great and upbeat person you were when you fell in love through your ACTIONS, NOT by telling her or texting her or reminding her the good times you had. Do not do that.

 

And do NOT call her unless you have to, certainly do NOT text her, if she sees you as controlling, she is expecting you to call her and text her all the time, asking her where she is, what she is doing etc. I know it is hard, I was terrible at it, but in my case there was no hope anyway. Maintain minimal contact, and keep the conversations SHORT, and straight to the point, and YOU should always end the conversation NOT HER, do NOT jump to the phone as soon as it rings, leave it for a while or just let it go to the answer machine, she will become curious and wondering why you are not answering, considering now she is expecting the opposite, I know it is hard, but you have to do it. Only contact her at appropriate time, don't call her during work hours or after mid night when you are drunk at the local bar.

 

Change your appearance a bit, then she can see some changes physically, do not go crazy with your new style, just be sensible, ask some of your lady friends to go shopping with you, and talk to them about this.

 

And try to support and respect your wifes decision, like I said before she is expecting you to do the opposite, asking her to come back, stop her from moving out etc. by doing the opposite you are showing her that you are not controlling and selfish. Instead you are being supportive and showing her your understanding. Be independent for a while, and most of all be patient! slowly you can show her the changes. Do NOT be needy or act desperate, it does not make you attractive in any ways.

 

Tell her that you need time to find a way to better yourself too, to discover where you did wrong in the relationship, and what lessons can be learned. Admit what you did wrong, tell her that you are doing this for YOURSELF, only then the changes can be lasting, not temporary (if you are doing it for her), and be supportive of her, even if it means helping her to move."

Edited June 15, 2011 by Le Corb

[worldgonewrong]

I thought about the easy way out many many times, I still do,

 

Le Corb: DON'T.

Stop and think about the hot piece o' ass out there that's willing and waiting to love you in the future.

[worldgonewrong]

p.s. apologies for the crude expression above that I used.

I'm just trying to convey that there's a hot & intelligent woman out there that's waiting for him.

[Mauschen]

All good advice.

 

I also recommend visiting marriagebuilders.com and reading His Needs Her Needs. You don't have to use everything in the book, but I think it is helpful to understand what the other gender desires in a relationship. Obviously, you can't put this information into practice right now (and I wouldn't recommend it either since you'd seem smothering), but it will be very helpful in the future.

[carhill]

My sympathies, OP, and welcome to LS

 

What are the ground rules for your separation, as you will be living separately?

 

As an example, is each party free to date others?

 

How will financial aspects be handled?

 

What kind of timeline is reasonable?

 

IMO, having gone through all of this, if she moves out, says she loves you, resents you, is unwilling to work on the M in MC and has no definite timeline in mind, it essentially puts you in limbo. If I were in such circumstances, I'd file for divorce. If she loves you, she can clarify her resentment and love for an hour once a week in MC. It's not a big burden.

 

I wouldn't roll over on her leaving with you just dangling there. Either take concrete steps to save the M or to end it.

 

FWIW, our MC opined that separation without working to reconcile the M is a pathway to divorce. Having seen it firsthand, I understand why he would offer that opinion. I hope you find your path.

[cphillips]

Wow, thanks for all the advice and opinions. LeCorb, I'm sorry to hear about how hard things have been for you, but thank you for the great advice above. The hardest thing right now is we are still living together, sleeping in the same bed, and getting along great. She hasn't tried to force me to leave or anything. It kind of sends mixed signals/ false hope to me. We are going to live together up until the day she moves out I guess, which is a month away. So some of the advice I can't even apply right now since we currently live together and probably will for about another month. I see it getting much harder than it is now.

 

She also doesn't want to file any legal paperwork right now. She said we can be mature enough to separate things without getting the Court involved. I can't figure this one out. She wants to leave, and live separately with no divorce or legal separation. Makes me wonder what the motive for that is? I think if we are married for 5 years then I will owe alimony, and or 5 years is July 15th. Maybe she is trying to drag it out until then?

 

Carhill, I tried to talk about the boundaries for separation today and what we seemed to agree to is: no dating, but she seemed a little weird about it. She will take her name off all the bills we have together, and take her name off all our accounts. All she wants me to do is pay her car payment, and pay for daycare. At this point she isn't willing to set a timeline. That bothers me. I can't just hang around forever.

Edited June 15, 2011 by cphillips

[carhill]

So, how is custody/visitation for your son going to be handled?

 

The problem with informal verbal arrangements is that they are left open to interpretation. This is especially a critical issue where a child is involved.

 

What assets are in both your names? Vehicles, watercraft, homes, etc?

 

How about debts for same? Additionally, joint credit cards?

 

My exW and I arranged for all of our financial affairs to be settled prior to filing for divorce, but I had an attorney advising me strategically along the path, so that things were done in a proper and legal manner and to prevent me from making mistakes. It ultimately saved me a lot of money.

 

With a child involved, I'd suggest erring on the side of caution. Once she moves into her new apartment, anything can happen, regardless of what has been said. As I like to say, hope for the best and plan for the rest.

 

Has she discontinued counseling? Will she consider interviewing a new MC which you and she could jointly visit? IMO, continue to work on yourself and attempt to keep her engaged in MC as much as possible; keep the focus on the M. If she chooses to move out, accept that. As I suggested prior, if she makes no proactive moves to work on reconciliation, go down to the courthouse and file your petition. Our courthouse has a self-help staff who assist in preparation of legal forms but do not give legal advice. They referred us to a law school which does mediation for free and that was a great help in preparing the settlement forms properly. With a child, you'll likely want to have a lawyer, but it's not required.

 

I'll mention one last time... don't let her put you in limbo. Be proactive. Good luck.

[cphillips]

We quit going to marriage counseling, neither one of us liked her approach. Then I found out the lady told my wife to stop trying to please me because it would never happen, and that she didn't have hope for us from the beginning. I'm trying to get her to go back, but she is saying it isn't an us problem its a me problem. And that marriage counseling won't help that.

[fltc]

It's entirely up to her, all you can do is try to follow the advice given here and wait it out. Personally, I don't think it looks good but you already know that.

 

I hope she changes her mind but I suspect she's already found a replacement for you some time back.

[Le Corb]

To me it sounds like she wants to test water out herself by moving out, it will be hard to stop her, check if there is someone else involved, it seems like she wants to try something that she cannot / couldn't do with you. It does not sound good that she is taking her name off all the bills and accounts. Somehow I think she is still hanging onto you as a fall-back if things do not work out for her in the new move, which is very selfish of her, I would not consider it as hope of reconciliation, but use it to your advantage if you want to win her back.

 

Since you are still living together, now she is guided with suspicion and mistrust, she will also need time to heal and forgive, but give her a good impression that you can change for YOURSELF before she leaves, just start acting differently, but don't go completely the opposite, it will be hard for her or anyone to believe, do not say emotional things that she has already heard a million times, "I love you" and all that will only back fire, now to her "I love you" means "I need you", "I am a very needy person", "I am trying to guilt trip you", at the moment ACTION means more than words. Think back at the start of the relationship what did you guys use to do at home? cook breakfast or clean the drive way or take your son out for a fun day or something, you need to earn some extra brownie points. Whatever you do, do NOT buy her gifts, book holidays etc. its too much, and your motive is too clear. There is difference between cooking her breakfast and cooking breakfast and say there is something for you if you want, you need to play it to your advantage now without looking too obvious, its very subtle or she will suspect and choose not to believe. I know it is crazy but agree everything she says, help her to change the name on the bills, call the bank etc. then she will see that you are supporting her. Also create some distance even when you are living together, do not do it as a form of revenge or neglect, but as creating some kind of personal space to YOUR own, also it will give her space and time to heal and forgive. Do things that you enjoy at home, read a book, or listen to some music, go to galleries, or something that you are both interested in by yourself, then come back and share your experience and thought with her, kind a way to reconnect with her from some distance. You need to improvise now, you know each other well, I cannot tell you what to do, but I hope it makes some sense in term of the principle. Lastly you need to be emotionally available to her, whether she is seeing someone else or not, clearly she did not get it from you in the past, now you need to listen to what she has to say and be comforting. Good luck.

 

ps: "worldgonewrong" no need to apologize, at the moment at least crude expressions bring some crude humor into this madness.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Le Corb

[Le Corb]

I would like to emphasize, since she is still there, now you really need to LISTEN, by listening you are giving understanding and acceptance, she will see it, thats the best way to start to change.

 

Your response should not be defensive, but supportive, say things along the lines of "I want to listen to what you have to say, is there anything I can do to help you." "You must be so frustrated, angry and hurt. I want to hear more reasons why, so I can change for MYSELF". whatever she says about you and what you did, even if it is not true, or make your angry you must say things like "It was indeed unacceptable, I am sorry and I am responsible for you feeling that way." "My own beliefs has made it hard for me to completely understand your perspective at the time." Like I said before you really need to improvise, but do NOT act out of your character, she knows you too well, you need to be subtle. Best of luck my friend.

[worldgonewrong]

We quit going to marriage counseling, neither one of us liked her approach. Then I found out the lady told my wife to stop trying to please me because it would never happen, and that she didn't have hope for us from the beginning. I'm trying to get her to go back, but she is saying it isn't an us problem its a me problem. And that marriage counseling won't help that.

 

I swear, after reading that, I really intensely wish that some marriage counselors could be SUED royally.

[cphillips]

Ok a little update here. She has been very cold to me here lately. We arent fighting, but probably would be if i was showing how she was talking to me is making me feel. The thing i still cant figure out is why she wants to move out without filing any legal papers. She says we dont have to file anything, but when she talks she acts like she never intends to move back in or give it another try. I did see on our internet history that she is looking for a lawyer, and researching divorce. I think for whatever reason she just doesnt want to tell me she wants a divorce. She is sending a lot of mixed signals. I have been talking with people at work, and they seem to think there is someone else involved. Not that she is cheating now, but she wants to keep me on the backburner and see if this other guy is any better. If that is true, that is completely against her nature. If she is cheating/actively searching it would really surprise me. I almost wish it was happening, maybe it would make it easier to get over her.

[carhill]

IME, it's called 'souring the milk', ostensibly to assuage guilt down the road. Done incrementally, eventually the object/victim breaks/cracks and does/says something outrageous and then there's justification. Time-honored manipulation trick. Combined with light switch behaviors ranging from hot to 'cold', it can be crazy-making.

 

You'd have a whole new perspective if you were one of her girlfriends right now, sans penis or not. Having seen the inside of some of this stuff, it keeps me happily single now.

 

If she doesn't agree to see a new marriage counselor prior to moving out, file for divorce. Once she's out of the house, *anything* can happen and you have a child here to consider. That's job #1.

[Mauschen]

She probably IS cheating and you just don't know about it. Perhaps she wants to see if it will work out while you're patiently waiting around for her. As said by others, don't beg or plead. Just appear happy, confident, and like you're having a wonderful time in life. Go out a lot, look your best, and never tell her where you've been or what you've been doing. She will probably become very curious about your life.

 

Just make sure you have you kid (I think you mentioned you have one) most of the time during this waiting process if you want custody.

[2sunny]

she's probably already cheating... with an older guy.

 

don't pay her way... let her figure out how to pay for things herself - since she is the one who intends to leave.

 

take care of you... and your child.

[cphillips]

Wow,10 minutes after making my post, I found some interesting things. She has fallen for some guy from the new Orleans trip. Found a facebook conversation they had. They are planning a date for the weekend she moves out. Telling him how happy he makes her, and how she can't wait to get to know him better. She longs for him to hold her, makes me sick. I have been literally sick all day. I also found out she will be filing for divorce, and is getting a lawyer. What she doesn't know is I already have an appointment for Monday morning, and I'm filing. Trying not to let her know I know because it is the only way I know what she is planning. Also, the more dirt I get on her, the more ammo I will probably have. It is hard not to flip out. We are still living together and are married, and she is planning all this under my nose.

[carhill]

Sadly, not a surprise to many who have been through it. I hope you can find some peace. I also hope you have a good lawyer. It does get better, eventually.

[Steen719]

Wow,10 minutes after making my post, I found some interesting things. She has fallen for some guy from the new Orleans trip. Found a facebook conversation they had. They are planning a date for the weekend she moves out. Telling him how happy he makes her, and how she can't wait to get to know him better. She longs for him to hold her, makes me sick. I have been literally sick all day. I also found out she will be filing for divorce, and is getting a lawyer. What she doesn't know is I already have an appointment for Monday morning, and I'm filing. Trying not to let her know I know because it is the only way I know what she is planning. Also, the more dirt I get on her, the more ammo I will probably have. It is hard not to flip out. We are still living together and are married, and she is planning all this under my nose.

 

Sorry for your situation. It really stinks. Do you live in a community property state? Does your state consider infidelity when considering child custody? Do you have somewhere to go for the weekend so you do not do anything rash, like telling her you know and telling her you have an attorney and an appointment? Or at least can you go for a few hours to somewhere else? I would be careful not to show anything and it will be hard if you are right there with her. Best to you.