Grass greener on the other side??

[libra]

I am so glad that I found this site and was hoping someone out there may have a little advice. I will try not to ramble too much. My husband and I have just separated 3 weeks ago. We have been together 20 years with 2 kids. Just a little history... I have always been the type of person to keep the peace at all costs. I would apologize and go along with whatever throughout our marriage. I was very shy, couldn't make a decision while my husband is very outgoing, positive and makes most of the decisions. He also did most of the cooking and finances. He got home much earlier than me so it made sense. I worked in a family business for 16 of those years. It was good for everyone (kids, husband, family) but me. Didn't feel appreciated or valued. Husband liked it since it was all women,

not threatening to him.

 

Three years ago, my dad died suddenly, we had some big issues with my teen daughter and I had had it with the family business. I started having panic attacks round the clock. My husband is not emotionally supportive. During any major upsets in our lives, I had to turn to family and friends. He had a very unstable childhood with no nuturing whatsoever. I started taking anti-depressants and seeing a counselor. Both of which he was against. I got better, decided to change my life, went back to school (graduated Magna Cum Laude) and got a job in a field I'm interested in. My daughter also received counseling (again, had to really talk him into it) and is doing wonderfully.

 

The problem is that I have changed in the last few years. I realized that "life is not a dress rehearsal" and it is time to also think of what I want for my life not just what suits everyone else. My kids will always come first but I want more than to sit on the couch day after day and the big excitement is to get a video and pizza on Friday night. My husband likes to be home, I guess it's comfortable being around our little family when he didn't have that growing up. I want to go places, see and do things. But I am now told I am selfish. He says I ruined his life, he was happy and i didn't include him in my "new life". I tried for years and years to get him to do things with me (we did vacation each year and spent summer weekends at the lake) but gave up and started to go with friends. Now I don't think I would even WANT to do things with him if he agreed to. Part of me thinks that he would change for a while and then only be doing things because I want him to. I want him to WANT to do things together, be spontaneous.

 

The other problem is that he has become more controlling. What I wear to work, why I'm home 1/2 late, why I want to go out dancing (about once every 6 weeks) with girlfriends. He is not thrilled with the position I may be getting at work since I will deal mostly with men. And has admitted that he's not sure he could handle it. It's a great opportunity and something I'm excited about since the new improved me loves to be around people. I am now more outgoing, I speak my mind and much more sure of myself. I like who I have become. He has told me that he wishes I was the sweet naive girl he fell in love with.

 

All our married lives, I was told by him and our friends and family how lucky I was to have him. He's so good looking, great father, husband, stays home etc. I was never made to feel that he was lucky to have me too. I never felt special. Which leads me to the problem in the sex department. He has a high sex drive and would get moody if I turned him down and said I used it as a weapon. He complained I wasn't ever the aggressor. There was little romance I ended up feeling like a piece of meat.

 

Now the problem, we are separated. I know that I love him but don't feel "in love" and don't desire him anymore. I don't want to stay in a marriage because it's "safe and comfortable". He is a good person and I know he hasn't been happy for a few years either. He says he realizes he has control issues but can he really change? I suggested counseling but he has yet to make an appointment. i won't make it since I feel that it is something he must do if he wants to.

 

To complicate things... I have started to develop feelings for someone who is TOTALLY OFF LIMITS. We get along great, have things in common and he makes me smile and feel good about myself. I know that it is just filling a void and there can never be anything there but friendship.

 

Sorry this got so long. But, after months with the counselor, talks with friends and family and spouse, I am still no closer to figuring it all out. Stay together or go? I have been trying to take it day by day and hoping time will tell.

Thank you

[Lester]

sorry its so long

 

Does Divorce Make People Happy?

Findings from a Study of Unhappy Marriages

Call it the "divorce assumption." Most people assume that a person stuck in a bad marriage has two choices: stay married and miserable or get a divorce and become happier.1 But now come the findings from the first scholarly study ever to test that assumption, and these findings challenge conventional wisdom. Conducted by a team of leading family scholars headed by University of Chicago sociologist Linda Waite, the study found no evidence that unhappily married adults who divorced were typically any happier than unhappily married people who stayed married.

Even more dramatically, the researchers also found that two-thirds of unhappily married spouses who stayed married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.2

The research team used data collected by the National Survey of Family and Households, a nationally representative survey that extensively measures personal and marital happiness. Out of 5,232 married adults interviewed in the late Eighties, 645 reported being unhappily married. Five years later, these same adults were interviewed again. Some had divorced or separated and some had stayed married.

The study found that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier than unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Divorce did not typically reduce symptoms of depression, raise self-esteem, or increase a sense of mastery. This was true even after controlling for race, age, gender, and income. Even unhappy spouses who had divorced and remarried were no happier on average than those who stayed married. "Staying married is not just for the childrens' sake. Some divorce is necessary, but results like these suggest the benefits of divorce have been oversold," says Linda J. Waite.

Why doesn't divorce typically make adults happier? The authors of the study suggest that while eliminating some stresses and sources of potential harm, divorce may create others as well. The decision to divorce sets in motion a large number of processes and events over which an individual has little control that are likely to deeply affect his or her emotional well-being. These include the response of one's spouse to divorce; the reactions of children; potential disappointments and aggravation in custody, child support, and visitation orders; new financial or health stresses for one or both parents; and new relationships or marriages.

The team of family experts that conducted the study included Linda J. Waite, Lucy Flower Professor of Sociology at the University of Chicago and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Don Browning, Professor Emeritus of the University of Chicago Divinity School; William J. Doherty, Professor of Family Social Science and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at the University of Minnesota; Maggie Gallagher, affiliate scholar at the Institute for American Values and coauthor of The Case for Marriage; Ye Luo, a research associate at the Sloan Center on Parents, Children and Work at the University of Chicago; and Scott Stanley, Co-Director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver.

Marital Turnarounds: How Do Unhappy Marriages Get Happier?

To follow up on the dramatic findings that two-thirds of unhappy marriages had become happy five years later, the researchers also conducted focus group interviews with 55 formerly unhappy husbands and wives who had turned their marriages around. They found that many currently happily married spouses have had extended periods of marital unhappiness, often for quite serious reasons, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work reversals.

Why did these marriages survive where other marriages did not? Spouses' stories of how their marriages got happier fell into three broad headings: the marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic.

In the marital endurance ethic, the most common story couples reported to researchers, marriages got happier not because partners resolved problems, but because they stubbornly outlasted them. With the passage of time, these spouses said, many sources of conflict and distress eased: financial problems, job reversals, depression, child problems, even infidelity.

In the marital work ethic, spouses told stories of actively working to solve problems, change behavior, or improve communication. When the problem was solved, the marriage got happier. Strategies for improving marriages mentioned by spouses ranged from arranging dates or other ways to more time together, enlisting the help and advice of relatives or in-laws, to consulting clergy or secular counselors, to threatening divorce and consulting divorce attorneys.

Finally, in the personal happiness epic, marriage problems did not seem to change that much. Instead married people in these accounts told stories of finding alternative ways to improve their own happiness and build a good and happy life despite a mediocre marriage.

The Powerful Effects of Commitment

Spouses interviewed in the focus groups whose marriages had turned around generally had a low opinion of the benefits of divorce, as well as friends and family members who supported the importance of staying married. Because of their intense commitment to their marriages, these couples invested great effort in enduring or overcoming problems in their relationships, they minimized the importance of difficulties they couldn't resolve, and they actively worked to belittle the attractiveness of alternatives.

The study's findings are consistent with other research demonstrating the powerful effects of marital commitment on marital happiness. A strong commitment to marriage as an institution, and a powerful reluctance to divorce, do not merely keep unhappily married people locked in misery together. They also help couples form happier bonds. To avoid divorce, many assume, marriages must become happier. But it is at least equally true that in order to get happier, unhappy couples or spouses must first avoid divorce. "In most cases, a strong commitment to staying married not only helps couples avoid divorce, it helps more couples achieve a happier marriage," notes research team member Scott Stanley.

Would most unhappy spouses who divorced have ended up happily married if they had stuck with their marriages?

The researchers who conduced the study cannot say for sure whether unhappy spouses who divorced would have become happy had they stayed with their marriages. In most respects, unhappy spouses who divorced and unhappy spouses who stayed married looked more similar than different (before the divorce) in terms of their psychological adjustment and family background. While unhappy spouses who divorced were on average younger, had lower household incomes, were more likely to be employed or to have children in the home, these differences were typically not large.

 

Were the marriages that ended in divorce much worse than those that did not? There is some evidence for this point of view. Unhappy spouses who divorced reported more conflict and were about twice as likely to report violence in their marriage than unhappy spouses who stayed married. However, marital violence occurred in only a minority of unhappy marriages: 21 percent of unhappy spouses who divorced reported husband-to-wife violence, compared to nine percent of unhappy spouses who stayed married.

On the other hand, if only the worst marriages ended up in divorce, one would expect divorce to be associated with important psychological benefits. Instead, researchers found that unhappily married adults who divorced were no more likely to report emotional and psychological improvements than those who stayed married. In addition, the most unhappy marriages reported the most dramatic turnarounds: among those who rated their marriages as very unhappy, almost eight out of 10 who avoided divorce were happily married five years later.

More research is needed to establish under what circumstances divorce improves or lessens adult well-being, as well as what kinds of unhappy marriages are most or least likely to improve if divorce is avoided.

[bark]

Ah, Libra, what is it about 20 years of marriage? My 20 year marriage, too, is on the rocks. It's like a 7 year "itch," and a 20 year "implosion."

 

Back to you. You can tell alot about how someone feels about his or her spouse by the depiction of the spouse. These web descriptions are like marital barometers. The more "evil" the spouse, the worse the marriage.

 

You portray your husband as controlling, passive (at least with you, except as to sex), insecure and as a lousy, insensitive lover. His virtues: he's good looking, fine around the house and he has been a great dad. Let's face it: your depiction of your spouse is so negative that most posters would give you a "get out of this marriage free" card. (There are exceptions: the "stay married in a living hell for the sake of the children" crowd.). You'll probably hear from some of them.

 

I understand that your spouse is a good dad, he's not your dad, he's your husband. And it is in that critical role that you portray him as failing.

 

I suspect there are quite a few"20 year" husbands who are great dads but lousy mates. I believe I'm one.

 

What is to be done? You've already separated and I don't get the impression that either of you is clamoring to reconcile. I would lead my life, get support from family, friends, web strangers at LoveShack and even from folks who are, as you say, "TOTALLY OFF LIMITS." Life is short and you need all the support you can get.

 

You're embarking on a new chapter in your life. You'll make mistakes and wrong choices, but you'll do it with new, exciting people--not with an inert, selfish spouse in a long, dead marriage.

 

Go for it, girl. Move on. Find out if that grass is any greener...

[moimeme]

Lester - please post a link to that source.

 

Libra - I do believe marriages can be salvaged with counselling but, of course, both people have to go. The information in the article is helpful to a point. You probably can't manage the 'endurance ethic', unless your husband participates, the 'work ethic' won't work, and you're already trying the 'happiness ethic' but that itself is threatening to him.

 

There's a great passage I've quoted before; unfortunately I don't have the source handy, but it's

'She had to shrink herself to fit into his small world'. Your mate has not changed at all but you have. He may not be able to catch up with you, and he certainly won't if he doesn't even go to counselling. Bottom line, if he's not willing to work on the marriage with you by going for counselling, then it's time to cut the lines and sail away.

[Lester]

moimeme I agree with you 100%

 

I found it while surfing the other night. I'll try to remember were it can from and post it. It might have been in divorce magazine.

 

I too have been married for 20 years and am separated but we are trying to get back together with counceling but as yet I have no answers only hope. I guess only time will tell. As I said it takes 2. If he is unwilling to try then move on with your life although I believe divorce to be the absolute last step

[libra]

Thank you all for your insight. It has been a tough road although one that has been traveled down by many!

I guess I'll take it one step at a time and live my life the way I need to live it. If he decides he wants to make a change in his life and seek counseling to try and resolve some of his issues then we'll take it from there. I am not going to mention counseling again to him. He knows how I feel about it. And maybe counseling isn't the answer. But I can't just go by his words when he says he knows he is controlling and he knows he has a problem with all my changes. I have made a list of things that I would like to do and things I have asked him to do with me and I am going to start crossing them off my list as I accomplish them.

 

AS for "marital endurance ethic, the marital work ethic, and the personal happiness ethic" ... I worry that the endurance ethic would take me back to where I was before. I have come so far in finding out what i want from life and worked hard to overcome my insecurities and dependence on pleasing everyone else. I think that by waiting it out, I would just give up and settle. I'm sure that there would be happiness along the way. After all, we were happy in the roles we were in until 3 years ago. The work ethic..... agree, it takes two. And the personal happiness ethic brought everything to a head which lead us to the separation. After all, I am "selfish" now.

 

I guess I have to try to stop finding excuses and stop justifying his behaviors (old habit) and decide if it's how I want to live. Doesn't matter why he is the way he is, just if I want to deal with it anymore. It's just so hard because I know he loves me and I do love him. Just don't think it's enough anymore. As someone once told me... "It's not just the end of a marriage it's the end of a dream."

 

I wonder what it is about the 20 year marriage that goes sour? Maybe it is midlife crisis? I just turned 40, maybe that's it? I have 3 other friends who are on this same path. I don't think I like this "club". LOL

 

Thank you again

[bark]

"I wonder what it is about the 20 year marriage that goes sour? Maybe it is midlife crisis? I just turned 40, maybe that's it? I have 3 other friends who are on this same path. I don't think I like this "club". LOL"

 

libra, you're so right. Membership in the 20 year sick marriage club is hardly exclusive. Maybe, just maybe, we humans are not biologically or temper mentally disposed to stay married to the same person for 30+ years "until death do us part." Perhaps a marriage (or any mature erotic relationship) , like any organism, is born, grows, matures and dies. Perhaps the "fault" lies not in us, disaffected spouses, but with this "Procrustean Bed" of an institution. Maybe one size does not, and should not, fit all. A marriage can exhaust itself--especially after 20 years.

 

Your "thank-you" response was excellent. The theoretical arguments against divorce after a long marriage have a sour, abstract quality. Experts tell us "you both need to work harder," "long term commitment is hard work," and blame us for seeking the easy way out.

 

These "marriage as a day job exhortations" ignore the intense expectations we all hold in any relationship as to play. togetherness, sharing, desire and fun. When those things are gone all the makes the marriage are the children. An sometimes, especially when the kids are older, children are not enough to justify staying in a dead marriage.

 

Sometimes "work" and "perseverance" are just not enough.

 

Good luck in whatever the future holds in store for you.

 

You're a smart lady.

[libra]

[Maybe, just maybe, we humans are not biologically or temper mentally disposed to stay married to the same person for 30+ years "until death do us part." Perhaps a marriage (or any mature erotic relationship) , like any organism, is born, grows, matures and dies. Perhaps the "fault" lies not in us, disaffected spouses, but with this "Procrustean Bed" of an institution. Maybe one size does not, and should not, fit all. A marriage can exhaust itself--especially after 20 years]

 

I believe there is some truth to what you have said. I think that we all hope for that one neverending love, til death do us part. I am sure that most people enter into marriage with that intention. But I know that throughout our lives we are in a contant state of change. We aren't the same people we fell in love with all those years ago. Probably didn't even have a clear idea who WE even were let alone our spouses. I guess the saying about "people coming into your life for a reason...." holds true. Maybe they were there to help us get to who we are now. I guess relationships don't have to die they just change. That person will always be a part of our lives and we just have to reestablish a different type of relationship.

 

I appreciate your supportive words and your insightful responses. Here's hoping we all find what it is we are searching for.

[bark]

I agree --hope usually does spring eternal when it comes to relationships and renewal.

 

I am with you on this. I, too, am deciding whether to end my 20 year marriage.

 

We have two children--they're great kids--a 14 yo son and 16yo daughter. They're the 2 reasons I've not left my marriage.

 

May I ask how your two children are reacting to your searation?

 

I know everyone is different but any info is appreciated before I separate.

 

Thanks.

[libra]

My daughter is 16 and very mature for her age. She actually approached us because she suspected something was going on (before we told them). She says she realizes it would be selfish of her to want us together just for their sakes and realizes we need to be happy too. And that she will be off to finish college in two years. She is taking college classes now instead of high school. She seems to be adjusting well but with school, work and a boyfriend off in the service.... she has alot of other stuff on her mind. she has really been totally understanding (too much so?) and seems to be in a good mood most of the time. I think that missing her boyfriend is her biggest concern. The one thing we have noticed is that she is suspicious now. She asks us where we are going, who with etc. If her dad isn't home when she calls, she wants to know where he was. I think that we have tried to be honest with them but she is looking to see if there are other reasons (infidelity... which wasn't the issue)

My son (12) has always been kind of quiet. He keeps alot inside. He showed signs of depression for the last year or two. We are thinking it's hormones, my daughter went through a real rough time at that age. We took him to counseling yesterday for the first time. He was angry with us for making him go but he is angry with us for this whole situation anyway. He is very regimented and doesn't like change. He is still doing great in school and has times when he laughs but has been much more negative and argumentative with us and his best friend.

I don't know the best way to handle it. I guess as honest as you can. We haven't told them that its' definately divorce because I guess we aren't definate. We spend time together and as a family but I don't want to give them false hopes.

I think that alot depends on how you and your spouse deal with it. If there isn't too much anger (or you keep it in check and not let the kids see.........he has alot of anger toward me) and not lay blame, then its possible to end it with some compassion and consideration. We get along almost too well which leaves us both confused. But, It's still nice doing something as a family each week.

Counseling is always a good idea expecially for the kids

 

Good luck to you, let me know how things go.

[bark]

Thanks, Libra. Our families, at least superficially, appear as mirror images. Quite weird.

 

I'll keep you informed. Hang in there.

[Kay]

Hi, Libra. Sometimes it's just so surreal reading other people's posts when they appear so similar to your own situation. (yours, too Bark - we've talked before under "Controlled separation ...")

 

I am really struggling right now also. Two years ago, my husband expressed that he no longer loved me, that he didn't know what he wanted to do but knew that he could not be happy with me anymore. I've come to understand that it is indeed possible to be caught completely unaware; which I absolutely was. I also found out that he had been confiding in my best friend of 15 years who was also struggling with whether or not she wanted to stay in her marriage (ironically with her husband who was also my husband's best friend) Strictly emotional, not physical but sometimes I think I wish they would have just had a one night stand instead of a year of betrayal, deceipt, lies and dishonesty.

 

Husband moved into the guest room of our house, we appear to be the perfect family to others, we don't openly argue though our conversations behind closed doors usually result in my husband's stony silence and my uncontrollable crying. Not the ideal way to communicate on either of our parts. I hate hate hate crying in front of him but I am absolutely heartbroken over the loss of my life as I knew it.

 

Fast forward to now. I have a 16 year old daughter who sounds quite similar to yours, except that she suffers from depression and was diagnosed three years ago as obsessive compulsive. She is brilliant, beautiful and intuitive. No boyfriend and only a few close friends. She appears to be trying to accept our strange home situation but really struggles to understand why her Dad (whom she loves dearly and rightfully so) can't make up his mind about whether he stays with us or if he is planning on leaving. Way too many mixed messages all around. When she asks me about him, I simply direct her back to him. I completely adore, love, respect and treasure her.

 

My son, like yours, is also quiet, reserved and withholds emotions. He is almost 14 and the light of my life. He makes me laugh, but worries about me too. I worry even more about him and the message he is getting from his Dad and from me as a husband and wife, or a man and a woman. He wants to respect and love his Dad and I do everything I can to encourage this, but he is angry and confused.

 

Sorry ... I'll wrap this up ... Bottom line, I don't know what I want anymore. I really believed with all my heart that I wanted and was willing to keep my marriage together. Now, the pain is so great I, too, am considering my options; separation is looming larger every minute. (altho, Bark, I still respectfully disagree that dating others while separated is a good thing and don't plan to go there)

 

My husband and I have been married 20 years. He is 43, I am 44. High school sweethearts. In three years time (just before my husband's "declaration") I lost my Dad suddenly, we moved into a 7,000 sq.ft. house, my husband lost his job in an extremely high level executive position, my husband started a fledgling new business without taking a salary, his 38 year old sister committed suicide, my 26 year old neice died of an accidental overdose of cocaine and my Mom is in critical condition with congestive heart failure. (incidentally, my husband's own 44 year old father took his life when my husband was 17 after fighting MS for most of my husband's childhood)

 

A little drama, yes? Despite all this, I have remained supportive, loving and kind to my husband, accepting his emotional and physical rejection for almost 2 years now. I just don't know, like you Libra, what is ahead. I never in a million years thought this would happen to my marriage. I thought I would continue to accept the "status quo" but now our house in on the market (over a year!!) and when it sells, if my husband continues to live under the same roof but apart, I will be forced to make a decision that I truly don't want to make but feel I have done everything I could. This makes me so incredibly angry and I am beyond sad. A divorce simply does not have to happen for us, but I am at the end of my emotional rope.

 

Yikes. Way too much information - sorry! I'd be very interested in what you think, Libra and Bark. Thanks and the best of luck to both of you.

[bark]

Kay, how tragic. My heart bleeds for you and your family.

It appears you and your husband already have separated in a legal, sexual and most importantly, emotional sense. Your strained home life must have a jarring impact on your adolescent son and daughter.

 

I honestly don't know which is worse: telling your spouse and kids that you're separating and then moving out of the house but remain nearby or telling your spouse you no longer love him or her and then remaining in the house living as strained roommates. This is emotional chinese water torture.

 

What is worse:an absent dad or one that remains but exists as a facade in a failed marriage? I don't know.

 

Your family sounds like it's in a state of suspended animation--the worst form of limbo. While you've reached a tense equilibrium it is one fraught with pain, tension and unhappiness. Your children may believe you're staying "together" for them, yet see your unhappiness and feel guilty.

 

I believe it's time to physically separate from your husband. The status quo can't be good for your self-esteem and your son's and daughter's mental health.

 

Their father can remain in their lives, just not in the house. And you need to be reborn socially, spiritually and psychologically.

 

A fast death is preferable to a slow death.

 

A quick end to a failed marriage, if done right, is preferable to the sheer torture you and your loved ones have undergone these past two years.

 

Have him leave--do it for your kids and, most importantly, yourself.

 

Move on, Kay. You fought the good fight.

[Kay]

Thanks, Bark. Legally, at least in Michigan, I can not force my husband to leave the family home, nor can I leave him and move out without being charged with abandonment.

 

As soon as the house sells, I plan to move forward with my life and children. If he comes with us, but continues sleeping apart, I will have no other choice than to file for a divorce. If he stays with us, begins sleeping in our bed again and appears to want things to work, I will insist on counseling. There has been way too many issues to go it alone without getting help with a future "game plan." It will be interesting to see what he actually does, once we sell the house.

 

I have been told by many people NOT to file first; to wait until the house sells for financial reasons. I have been a stay-at-home Mom since my children were born, (but have a Master's in education and taught special ed) H has been the primary wage earner for the past 17 years.

 

I probably need to know more about what a "legal separation" means. Is there an advantage to a separation vs. divorce? Thing is, I really don't think he wants a divorce -- it wil be devastating for everyone -- but especially because our marriage COULD have been saved. How can he not see that?

 

Again, I thank you for your input and wish you well.

 

Kay

[libra]

Each day I look forward to reading the helpful input and words of support I find on this board. Amazing that sometimes web friends can be more insightful than real time friends/family. I'm sure that it has to do with unbiased opinions and not knowing all the incidental muck.

 

Kay, I have to agree with Bark on this one. I think that the situation you describe has to be very confusing, not only for yourself and H but for the kids. You said that this arrangement has been going on for the last two years? I believe that if there was hope of a future, things would have started to improve by now. Why don't you insist on counseling now? Don't wait until HE makes the decision on if he wants to move back into your bed or not. YOU need to decide if you deserve more for yourself than a man who is unwilling to give you any part of himself emotionally or physically. If he won't go to counseling, go for yourself. Ironically, I have a sister in law who is filing for divorce from my husbands brother (all 3 brothers and myself and 2 sister in laws all separated at the same time) just because Virginia law requires you MUST go to counseling. My thought is that if you have to force someone to seek help, then they must not value the relationship as much as you do. It's obvious that you cannot "fix" this on your own or would have done so by now.

 

We were very afraid to tell our kids about the divorce/separation and it was very hard but not as hard as the stress involved in anticipation of how they were going to take it. In a perfect world we would all go on living the "American Dream" but the truth is that it just doesn't always work out that way. I had a mini meltdown when my dad died suddenly 3 years ago and it took me a while to deal with his death. But there are stages and you deal with them and keep going. It's all you can do. I think in some ways, divorce is harder because you move onto the next stage then something happens to send you back to square one again. Should we, Shouldn't we? It's a terrible rollercoaster. I totally understand when you say that you just don't know what you want anymore, I feel the same way. But I DO KNOW THIS....... I dont want what we had over the last few years. Do something for yourself. What about substitute teaching until you get back into the swing of things? I think the pain involved in trying to hold onto this relationship has got to be more severe than just moving on and making a life for yourself and kids.

 

Remember there will always be a relationship with your husband, it is just changing. And this change may be that you no longer live as husband and wife (which basically holds true now).

 

Hope this helps, my prayers and thoughts are with you Kay and Bark

[libra]

Don't mean to be a pain but I have another issue. Actually, I have all kinds of issues! LOL

Bark, Kay would appreciate your input ..... again.....

 

My husband has started to show signs and make comments leading me to believe that he would maybe like to work this out. He is disappointed if I havent' called him to talk or don't want to see him. He continues to say I ruined his life and he was happy. He forgets he has been unhappy for the past 2 years. But, I guess maybe for him, it was better than what his life is now. For some reason he wants me to sleep over his place. I have let him sleep here with me about once a week. I know that it isn't healthy for me and I am probably doing it for all the wrong reasons. If you remember from my 1st post, sex was always an issue. Not the same sex drive, he would pout if I didn't want to have sex at least 3 times a week. So, I would give in then he accuses me of using it as a weapon and I ended up feeling like a piece of meat. Over the years it has taken it's tole (sp?) on our marriage and as a result I don't really desire him anymore. There was NEVER romance, I was never told or made to feel like I was beautiful to him just that he desired me.

 

I caved and when he called tonight, sounding sad, I told him to come for dinner tomorrow. I don't know if I am ready to tell him that I am happy (? not sure if happy is the right word here but very comfortable) with us being apart now. I am very afraid that I will end up that insecure dependent person I was when we were together. I am still doing things to make HIM happy and justifying his behaviors and we are separated.

 

To complicate matters, I went out with friends and ran into an old crush from high school. Seems he just went through divorce and we had a really nice conversation and enjoyed talking. He made me feel wonderful! The whole time he continued to tell me how beautiful I was and that I haven't changed since high school (minus freckles) and actually more gorgeous now than then. I have only heard the word beautiful coming from my husband on a handful of occasions, none that come to mind, unless you count comments on certain body parts.

Anyway, the old crush would like to get together for a drink or coffee because he really enjoyed my company. I am by no means ready looking for a relationship but feel extremely guilty for wanting to go. Why is it that words from a stranger, well practically since I haven't seen him since high school, are so impressionable to me? He was amazed that my husband wasn't thrilled for me that I went back to school and got a job I am excited about and supportive of my new direction. Husband just feels threatened that I will be in contact with..... OH MY LORD...MEN.!

 

Should I just tell him I need space? I don't want to string him along while I get my head together. I don't want to hurt him more (seems to me Kay, that your husband should feel the same and give you that respect instead of keeping you in a holding pattern).

One more interesting note (promise this is it) .... when we were separating my husband wanted to know where we stood with sex. He said that he doesn't see why we can't continue a sex life since we still love and care about each other. And .... here comes the threat........ if we don't continue to have sex, he will probably be the one who ends up screwing up because he can only last a couple months without. So,here we go, if I don't give it to him, he will go elsewhere. Sad but I am starting to think that I almost wish he would go elsewhere.

 

HELP (again)

[bark]

An eloquent post to Kay, Libra--one beautifully espressed.

 

In the "Isn't is ironic department," my ex-lover's husband has 2 brothers, both married, with pre-teenage kids. Within a couple months of the end our affair, both of her brothers-in-law announced to their shocked spouses that they didn't love them anymore and both guys immediately moved out of the marital homes. These were always viewed as "American Dream" marriages. My ex-lover's marriage, after a torrid 3 year affair, appears to be moving along in a more stable fashion now that I am completely out of her life. My marriage is on the rocks.

 

You can never tell...

[libra]

Good morning

Bark, mirror image lives......... I think you are right. I guess some people would take comfort in knowing that they aren't the only ones living this life but instead it makes me terribly sad.

[libra]

Bark & Kay

It seems that we have much in common is there anyway we can email directly off the boards? Bark, I am afraid I may end up going down a path you have already travelled and would love to hear some of your thoughts on this.

[bark]

Good morning, Libra.

 

You have recently separated from a man whom you describe as controlling, manipulative, emotionally cold, unsupportive and anti-romantic. On top of that, he uses threats of extra-marital relationships to extort sex from you. As husbands go, he's no poster boy.

 

While your husband mopes and pleads for sex from his "piece of meat," you've made major strides in changing your life around--school, job, etc. These changes, I gather, have been both internal and external and substantially for the better.

 

You have drawn a despairing portrait of what I can only describe as a "toxic spouse." A toxic spouse is one who poisons his spouse's life by his words and actions--makes her feel small, inadequate , ugly, insignificant.

 

I don't know you but I do know from reading your thoughtful and, at times, eloquent posts, that you are none of the above. You're an extremely bright, insightful woman who deserves better--much better.

 

Despite my past mistakes, I know marriage is important and that we should love, respect and honor our spouses. But sometimes a relationship is so sick, a spouse so toxic that the ideal of marriage must yield to the dark reality of that person who is your spouse. This sounds like one of those times.

 

With apologies to all the marriage idealists out there, sometimes an exit is the only rational, sane and self-protective response in a toxic marriage such as yours.

 

Your husband will never be completely out of your life given your children. I would tell him to take his hyper sex drive, controlling personality and whining someplace else.

 

Libra, you have too much to give, and experience, to waste any more of your valuable time mired in this bleakly unsatisfyingand destructive "relationship."

 

Break free, girl, break free.

[Kay]

Just wanted to clarify my situation, for what it is worth ...

 

I got the "don't love you anymore" speech 2 years ago. H moved into the guestroom in January, 2003, so nine months ago.

 

Libra, I am in therapy; have been for over 2 years. H will not go to counseling, marital or individual. I mentioned in my earlier post, that I would insist on counseling if we do in fact stay together in a new house with the intent on making our marriage work.

 

I feel confident that I will be ready to "make it or break it" as soon as we sell the house/move. We didn't anticipate it would take this long to sell, but I think that 's why my husband is clinging to this holding pattern because it gives him reason to delay making a decision. Likely, it will end up being my decision to divorce, not his as he expects.

 

I would like to suggest to both of you two excellent sources that have given me a great deal of food for thought as I wander on this journey:

 

"Uncoupling" a book by Diane Vaughan and a website called http://www.midlifeclub.com. The website allows individuals to chat online and also provides hundreds of personal stories from both husbands and wives experiencing what we are. I found this website after reading the book, "How to Survive Your Husband's Midlife Crisis." (Bark, both "Uncoupling" and the website include both a man's perspective as well as a woman's)

 

Kay

[bark]

Thanks, Kay, I joined the Club under "bark."

 

I certainly belong there!