Individual Counseling Hurtful in an Affair?

[n9688m]

My wife of 14 years has had an affair and a brief (and arguably insincere) attempt at couples counseling has not been successful. Hence we are initiating divorce.

 

Simultaneous with the couples counseling, my wife has chosen to attend individual counseling. Of course I am not privy to what is discussed, but from what she has mentioned to me it sounds distinctly as if this counselor endorses on a SELFISH or "me" philosophy which if anything seems to have pushed my wife further away from any chance at reconciliation. It doesn't sound as if the counselor is considering issues such as honesty, commitment, family, or trust but rather seems to be simply encouraging my wife to do what makes her "happy" without consideration of the cost to others nor consideration of morals or values.

 

Of course this is simply my perception of my STBXF tells me and she has strong motivation to justify her affair - so I certainly need to take this with a grain of salt. Nonetheless - would this sort of counseling by typical and if so then what do others think of this philosophy?

[norajane]

IC is about 'me'. It's supposed to help a person understand themselves better and work through the issues preventing them from being emotionally healthy people.

 

If, during the course of that therapy, what keeps coming up is she's unhappy being married, theoretically they would explore what's going on with her and in the marriage. I would imagine if the problems stem with her - she wants to be independent, she doesn't want to feel tied down, she wants to have sex with multiple people and monogamy isn't for her, she doesn't love you, she wants a lifestyle that's different from what marriage requires - then there's no point in staying in the marriage since neither you nor she will be happy.

 

If the unhappiness is due to issues in the marriage which can be resolved - changing schedules or jobs so you can spend more time together, finding new interests that you can share together, resolving issues about house work or child care or money matters, meeting each other's emotional and physical needs, rekindling a lost spark, etc. - then there is a point in trying to save the marriage.

 

So, short answer, it depends on what's going on in your wife's head, the causes behind the affair and why she's not happy in the marriage.

[Ronni_W]

In normal course of business, individual (or couples') counseling won't cause harm. But it likely will shine a very bright spotlight on already-existing problems.

 

For obvious reasons, it's often easier for individuals (or the couple) to blame the counselor or the counseling process but, when one goes a bit deeper, that's never the root of the problem.

 

As norajane mentioned, the role of the individual counselor is to help client think in terms of "cost to myself" and "what do I value?" instead of making it always about 'cost to others' and 'what do they want me to value?'

 

A good counselor will take hot-button words like honesty, commitment and trust, and help client bring those into context of his/her own purpose, values, needs and desires.

 

In my own experience, "selfish" is a word used to control and manipulate others to do what we want them to do, so it's unlikely that a mental health care professional would be positioning things from such a perspective.

[n9688m]

In normal course of business, individual (or couples') counseling won't cause harm. But it likely will shine a very bright spotlight on already-existing problems.

 

What happens if an individual gives incorrect information to the counselor? Could that not result in validation of improper behavior?

 

For example if a WW involved in an EA mischaracterizes her relationship with the OM, she might receive "professional" validation that her EA is not harmful to her marriage.

[norajane]

If the therapist is given misleading information, their counseling will be based on the that information. Counselors are not omniscient.

 

However, they can sometimes ask probing questions and can see there may be more to the story than the patient is telling. Still, if your wife isn't being honest with her therapist, there's a reason for it and her mind is made up in some direction.

[n9688m]

Still, if your wife isn't being honest with her therapist, there's a reason for it and her mind is made up in some direction.

 

It seems to me that she indeed wants out of the marriage but the question is whether the affair lead to a loss of emotional connection or the loss of emotional connection lead to the affair. She wants me (and I suppose herself) to believe that the affair is 100% a result of loss of emotional connection and thus the impending divorce is "my fault" for not meeting her needs and the divorce will not be in any way caused by her affair.

 

I suspect the answer is that the affair and loss of emotional connection work together to worsen the marriage. But that said, I just don't buy the argument that it's "my fault" she was driven to an affair. It seems to me she ought to have sought counseling much long ago if she were that unhappy and could not communicate that to me. I think there may well have been unspoken issues in the marriage before the affair, but the affair has likely changed those from reconcilable issues to unreconcilable. That really angers me - both for her not seeking counseling with me long ago and then now for her trying to blame this on me.

[Ronni_W]

To add to what norajane has said, the counselor's role is not to just give validation to the client's feelings, perceptions and experiences, but to help the client become skilled at validating those things for her or himself...by using the client's own values and standards to validate the client's own beliefs and behaviours.

 

It may be difficult to face right now, but the state of your marriage and/or reconciliation efforts point to you and your stbx...not to biased, unethical or unprofessional conduct on any counselor's part.

Consciously or unconsciously, you played a role in your relationship every step of the way. And the effects of your own role don't belong on the shoulders of a counselor.

 

Something else to consider is that, while you are focusing on your stbx's counselor/counseling, you may be missing crucial opportunities where you can do something that will make a positive difference for you and/or your children.

 

It just is rather futile for you to be thinking/worrying about her counseling, is really the truth of it...and it zaps your power to be effective in your own life.

 

Best of luck.

[norajane]

It seems to me that she indeed wants out of the marriage but the question is whether the affair lead to a loss of emotional connection or the loss of emotional connection lead to the affair. She wants me (and I suppose herself) to believe that the affair is 100% a result of loss of emotional connection and thus the impending divorce is "my fault" for not meeting her needs and the divorce will not be in any way caused by her affair.

 

I suspect the answer is that the affair and loss of emotional connection work together to worsen the marriage. But that said, I just don't buy the argument that it's "my fault" she was driven to an affair. It seems to me she ought to have sought counseling much long ago if she were that unhappy and could not communicate that to me. I think there may well have been unspoken issues in the marriage before the affair, but the affair has likely changed those from reconcilable issues to unreconcilable. That really angers me - both for her not seeking counseling with me long ago and then now for her trying to blame this on me.

 

Cheating is always a choice. It is not an inevitable result of anything going on in the marriage. So for her to blame you for her choice to deal with her issues by cheating is unfair and is called blame-shifting.

 

As you said, she could have dealt with the issues in many ways - IC, marriage counseling, talking to you, or even just getting a divorce. Instead, she CHOSE to cheat.

[n9688m]

As you said, she could have dealt with the issues in many ways - IC, marriage counseling, talking to you, or even just getting a divorce. Instead, she CHOSE to cheat.

 

Agreed.

 

Putting aside for the moment the challenge of reconciling after an affair [as it appears we wont' even get that far], is there any suggestion for how she could come to see the impact of her cheating on our relationship and counseling?

 

It seems to me that our issues might well have been reconcilable without the affair, but now in her effort to justify her cheating she keeps bringing up all sorts of things which I have supposedly done wrong for years but which we never discussed. So that just worsens the cycle.

[Ronni_W]

That really angers me - both for her not seeking counseling with me long ago and then now for her trying to blame this on me.

Anger is a normal part of the dissolution process (so) It's just a matter of how long one wants to stay in that phase.

 

Of course, you are not 100% to "blame" for your marital breakdown. But neither is she.

 

It would just be speculation (but that doesn't necessarily make it inaccurate), that she likely is very angry at you...for not recognizing that you two had become emotionally disconnected and for you not suggesting to do counseling a much long time ago.

 

In the same way that you now want to put all of that on her, she can as easily, and with the same logic and self-justification, put all of it on you.

 

Blame and judgment, on either of your parts, will just extend negative feelings that will also affect your kids, physically, mentally, emotionally and energetically/vibrationally.

 

The other part that you may want to consider is: so what if she blames you 100% (or you blame her 100%)? -- How will it help you, personally, to focus on that? Are there more effective and empowering ways for you to look at things and do things, given the current situation?

 

It's kind of a matter of choosing anger/resentment for yourself, or choosing to try to find a bit of a better feeling than that, for yourself.

 

There's no doubt that it sucks. But exactly how much you allow it to suck out your insides is up to you -- you DO still have that power!

[n9688m]

Of course, you are not 100% to "blame" for your marital breakdown. But neither is she.

 

Well that is the crux of the situation.

 

Of course I am partially to blame for the relationship issues. But I have a hard time accepting even 1% of the blame for the divorce if she both chose not to seek counseling and instead chose to have an affair.

 

No, I didn't see this coming. Indeed up until D-Day we continued with lots of "I love you forever" and all sorts of long-term planning and frequent sex - none of that suggested to me that she was so unhappy I should have scheduled counseling or somehow worked on other issues. It just seems ridiculous to me for a grown, educated woman to go literally from one day "I love you forever" to the next day wanting a divorce.

[Ronni_W]

It just seems ridiculous to me for a grown, educated woman to go literally from one day "I love you forever" to the next day wanting a divorce.

Yes, I know. That is exactly part of the mystery of it, when it happens.

 

The thing is that, sometimes, when that feeling hits (whether it's a man or woman who experiences it), it is 100% "logical" for that person, on a level that appears totally 100% illogical to everyone else.

 

It's cold comfort, of course, to realize that what is "ridiculous" for you seems perfectly sane, for her. You each have completely different truths and perspectives of the same circumstance.

 

The thing is, it is futile to challenge (fight against) someone else's truth. It just becomes you wanting her to see from your view, and her wanting you to see it from hers. Chance for that happening is seldom to never.

 

Have you asked her if there is anything positive that you CAN do, for her to want to make a serious reconciliation attempt?

And, pretend she says, "Well, first I want you to accept only what is your part of the lack of emotional connection in our relationship" -- would you be willing to at least try to do that, for the sake of your marriage?

 

My point is, instead of looking back and trying to figure out whose fault the mess is (and isn't), would it be worth your while to instead explore if there's a chance that you two can get on the same page long enough to try to clean it up TOGETHER...with you taking your fair and proper share of responsibility for the emotional disconnection? (NOT for the affair, which of course you had no power over.)

[n9688m]

Have you asked her if there is anything positive that you CAN do, for her to want to make a serious reconciliation attempt?

 

Indeed - and she acknowledged all sorts of things I did from her "Honey Do" list - but then she said "it doesn't matter - we just don't connect and we can't change that."

 

We tried it in counseling too. She has a list of a whole bunch of things. But then she wrote down at the bottom of her list that even if I did everything on the list, she still is not sure we would fundamentally "connect."

 

Thus she is setting up a major barrier wanting me to fail at her stated concerns. Hence a major reason why I feel her ongoing emotional affair is a huge barrier here. Yet she wont' even acknowledge it's an emotional affair ("He's just a friend") even though the volume and timing of her communication with him is extreme.

 

My point is, instead of looking back and trying to figure out whose fault the mess is (and isn't), would it be worth your while to instead explore if there's a chance that you two can get on the same page long enough to try to clean it up TOGETHER

 

Yes it would be worth my while. But she refuses to consider it. So in fact we haven't just gone instantly from "I love you forever" to "I want a divorce" but rather we have gone an additional step directly from "I love you forever" to "It is impossible for us to ever reconcile." That seems utterly ridiculous to me except for the influence of the OM.

[Ronni_W]

n9688m,

It certainly does sound as if she has removed herself from the marriage, for all practical purposes and intents.

 

So...it no longer matters whether or not she acknowledges it as an EA, or blames you, or blames herself. None of it matters, anymore.

 

In a way, for you to blame it on the influence of the OM (or counselor) is to say that you think she is too stupid to have figured out for herself that she is unhappy in the marriage and wants to get out of it.

You said she is 'educated' so I'm assuming also somewhat intelligent...she probably would have arrived at the same conclusion without any external influence at all. Maybe her timing would have been different, is all. Maybe.

 

I would suggest that your pending divorce is the result of the problems that already existed at whatever point she met OM and decided to have an affair. The problems existed whether or not you were aware of them, and whether or not she was conscious of her own feelings within and about the marriage. OM is not the cause but the consequence.

 

It may be more comfortable to blame OM and/or Counselor for your not receiving a proper chance at reconciliation, but that would be inaccurate.

It may be easier to put it all on STBX, but that would paint an incomplete picture.

 

As Devil's Advocate, one might ask: How is it possible for a spouse to NOT have known that the other was this unhappy? What kind of ignoring and denial had to be going on, on the supposedly 'blind-sided' spouse's part?

Because, it is for certain that she didn't get this unhappy overnight; she did not all-of-a-sudden and on a whim decide that she wanted to rip apart her own life, her children's lives and her husband's life.

 

It's great to, in hindsight, say "she should/could have done this and that - that was her responsibility"...but what is it that YOU could/should have done? What was your own responsibility to the mutual relationship?

 

It's not about blaming and fault-finding but about gaining a truer picture...so that one can move forward without anger and resentment...so that one can create a vision for a brighter and happier future.

 

I am sorry that you are all going through this.

Hugs and best of luck,

Ronni

[n9688m]

As Devil's Advocate, one might ask: How is it possible for a spouse to NOT have known that the other was this unhappy? What kind of ignoring and denial had to be going on, on the supposedly 'blind-sided' spouse's part?

Because, it is for certain that she didn't get this unhappy overnight; she did not all-of-a-sudden and on a whim decide that she wanted to rip apart her own life, her children's lives and her husband's life.

 

That is a fair question.

 

But if - as she reports - even she did not know she was so unhappy, how was I supposed to know? She also admits that no one - even her closest friends and family - suspected this. So how exactly was I supposed to know? It also seems extremely disingenuous to me for someone for example to support a spouse in a vasectomy and then a year or so later decide she was unhappy for many years - is it that absurd for me to think if my long-term spouse supports/suggests this that she is indeed planning to stay with me for the long-term?

[Ronni_W]

That is a fair question.

 

But if - as she reports - even she did not know she was so unhappy, how was I supposed to know? She also admits that no one - even her closest friends and family - suspected this. So how exactly was I supposed to know? It also seems extremely disingenuous to me for someone for example to support a spouse in a vasectomy and then a year or so later decide she was unhappy for many years - is it that absurd for me to think if my long-term spouse supports/suggests this that she is indeed planning to stay with me for the long-term?

Well, that is my whole point, in a nutshell -- the lack of conscious awareness was universal, and nobody's "fault".

 

THAT is precisely why it is so damaging to now want to put it all on one or another of the individuals -- your stbx doing that is misguided BUT so are you acting in misguided ways when you try to do that. That is my point.

 

I know that it sounds impossible to not know that the Self is deeply unhappy. I really do know how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

 

 

Of course I do not know, but I suspect that whatever she did a year ago (or whenever in the past) was genuine and from her heart...that is, it was according to her own awareness of her Self/feelings at that time.

Her awareness and feelings have changed since then, but that does not make her entire life up to this point one big lie. Like the rest of us, she has been living authentically according to what she knew (or thought she knew) about herself.

 

Are you open to the smallest possibility that, when awareness of one's own deep unhappiness and discontent suddenly makes itself clear and obvious, it hits the unhappy person as hard...and perhaps with even more force? (Putting aside any affairs for the moment...or at least, putting an affair in its more accurate context of 'result' not 'cause.')

 

Because. It does come as a HUGE surprise, when one thinks one is happy in this minute...and in the next minute, everything one thought one knew is turned completely upside. That is very traumatizing and chaotic not only for others affected, but also for the Self.

 

I really do know how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

[n9688m]

Are you open to the smallest possibility that, when awareness of one's own deep unhappiness and discontent suddenly makes itself clear and obvious, it hits the unhappy person as hard...and perhaps with even more force? (Putting aside any affairs for the moment...or at least, putting an affair in its more accurate context of 'result' not 'cause.')

That's exactly what she says - an "ephiphany" - and I am having trouble accepting it. I suppose the affair makes me obviously skeptical to other things she may say.

 

And I have trouble with it because while she says that she was unaware of her unhappiness, she equally berates me by saying how could I be so unaware of her needs for so long. Well how exactly was I supposed to know if she didn't know?

 

Moreoever if this fundamentally comes down to understanding a spouse's needs and communicating those needs, then that seems to me to be a pretty straightforward problem to reconcile if both spouses are willing to do so. But the affair then throws a huge curveball inot the equation - particularly if she wants or needs to blame the affair on me so rationalize things to herself.

 

Thus my conclusion that absent the affair, this could have been reconcilable. And also thus my conclusion that her ongoing EA during marriage counseling was the final nail in the coffin of our marriage.

 

And a final thought - if someone can so instantly change from being happy for years to being unhappy, how does she know she won't wake up in a year or two and realize she is still unhappy and made a huge mistake?

[Ronni_W]

if someone can so instantly change from being happy for years to being unhappy, how does she know she won't wake up in a year or two and realize she is still unhappy and made a huge mistake?

It is NOT a change from "happy to unhappy", it is simply a change in awareness/perception. It is going from being unhappy and not knowing it, to being unhappy and knowing it without any doubt.

(I'm sensing that may not make sense to you at this time but it does, nonetheless, reflect a more accurate portrait of the inner landscape of those who do experience it -- "epiphany" is as good a word as any. There are not enough and also too many words to really do it justice, in my experience.)

 

But. The scary part is that one does NOT know if or when another such "epiphany" will come around. Nothing is ever the same, after the first one. The whole world is forever after changed.

 

she equally berates me by saying how could I be so unaware of her needs for so long. Well how exactly was I supposed to know if she didn't know?

As already mentioned, that is misguided of her. She is looking to make some sense of it by blaming you or making you responsible for all of it. AND, you are looking to make sense of it by blaming her and making her responsible for all of it. (You're both using the same [negative] coping strategy, is all.)

 

You were/are NOT "supposed" to know things about her that she didn't know about herself. And vice versa, of course. Obviously and logically. But, as you no doubt feel, this is hardly a time for "obvious and logic" -- it is just chaotic and all messed up -- for you, for her, for the kids, for your family and friends...for EVERYone!

 

You simply need to know within yourself that she is acting misguidedly, and she is wrong to blame you for her decision to have an affair.

That is within your power, to generate that within yourself. What she does or does not choose to accept about it cannot influence you internally UNLESS you allow it.

 

Moreoever if this fundamentally comes down to understanding a spouse's needs and communicating those needs, then that seems to me to be a pretty straightforward problem to reconcile if both spouses are willing to do so.

Thus my conclusion that absent the affair, this could have been reconcilable. And also thus my conclusion that her ongoing EA during marriage counseling was the final nail in the coffin of our marriage.

At some point, perhaps it was fundamentally about that. But that day is long past. In the present, sticking with such thoughts/conclusions really amounts to just clinging to false hope; wanting/needing to feel that one can regain control; that there is or may be even a small chance for reconciliation..."if only" this would happen and/or that wouldn't happen.

 

But "if only" does not seem to be part of your stbx's thought patterns and feelings about her marriage. (so) In your own thoughts, "if only" will likely serve to cause you more pain than productive thoughts and positive feelings, in the long-term.

 

After anger, blame and resentment comes acceptance of things just exactly as they are...not as we wish they would be and not is we think they could be.

 

And then we get to jump between anger and acceptance -- it's a roller coaster ride that ain't half as much fun as the term implies...and it can really suck the life out of us, if we're not very careful!

[n9688m]

But "if only" does not seem to be part of your stbx's thought patterns and feelings about her marriage.

 

I suppose I am proving your point by not "accepting" this - so I do apologize for seeming argumentative. Your thoughts are helpful indeed.

 

Nonetheless it seems she cannot possibly be thinking in a realistic manner about our relationship when she is involved in an EA. For that manner it is clear her behavior overall is extremely uncharacteristic for her and rebellious in many ways - very much like a teenager's behavior patterns. That makes me wonder if a year or two from now she will wake up and think this was all a huge mistake - by which time it will be too late.

 

I suppose you will say that's out of my control and I should just accept it. Indeed I am - it's just a bit tough in particular now because due to the need for her to be able to share custody, it will take a while for her to find a home suitable for the kids half-time. So I can't go NC while I am in this never-never land of being semi-married.

 

And while I clearly do need to accept it, that is really hard to do when I think of the implications for our kids. And it's also hard to think about what happens if I move on to someone else and thereafter she outgrows this rebellion and realizes she made a mistake.

[Ronni_W]

Well...no! I don't feel that you're being argumentative, nor did I say that 'acceptance' will come easily and suddenly...like an "epiphany" or something .

 

Speaking only from my own experience, one realizes that one is acting out of character and being "unrealistic"...and at the same time there is this other part that is saying, "but this feels as if it is leading me to my true character"...and that also feels like a realistic goal and worthwhile journey to at least start to take. Of course, there is fear that it may end up being a misinterpretation of the "signs", or a total, colossal mistake. But one is just about compelled to do it, anyway.

 

It hardly makes sense to the Self, is what I'm saying. And I'm sensing that you are not only trying to make sense of it from your own perspective but from hers, also. That is just an impossibility, n9688m -- you will hurt your head and your heart if you continue to try to do that...and especially your head! I'm not kidding about that. You will not find sense/logic from within the confines of what we see as day-to-day reality and physics and such.

 

 

It can be difficult to be in the same house BUT, again from my own experience, it is not impossible. One just makes the decision, sets the goal to make the best of it, and then one just works minute-by-hour to live up to one's own intentions.

 

And it's also hard to think about what happens if I move on to someone else and thereafter she outgrows this rebellion and realizes she made a mistake.

Sorry...I'm not getting the problem with that(?) Obviously, you WILL move on and with Universe's assistance will find someone else with whom you can be happy.

(so) If/when she does realize it is a mistake, that will not be your problem to handle nor to help her handle.

 

To be honest with you, however, if she does now do the personal development work that is necessary for her to really get to know, understand, accept and communicate all about herself, chances are extremely slim that she will come to regret this at some point in her future.

 

Again, that's just my own view, from my own experience -- which is eerily similar to hers, but without an affair. That is, an "epiphany" experience does not need to include an affair for it to appear "ridiculous" to observers and feel crazy to the individual.

It is very much about the individual who undergoes the process...and really, ONLY about that individual.

 

(Notwithstanding that there is fall-out that one wishes could be avoided.)

 

My suggestion for acceptance and forgiveness is about you finding your way back to some semblance of 'normalcy' -- but I'm not suggesting that you can rush those things...they will come almost automatically, when your 'Angry Self' is ready to feel better and experience better things.

 

'Angry Self' is busy protecting you from further pain, and that is perfectly fine for right now. But there are more, er, 'accepting' and compassionate ways of looking at the whole picture, that will serve you and your kids better.

[n9688m]

Speaking only from my own experience, one realizes that one is acting out of character and being "unrealistic"...and at the same time there is this other part that is saying, "but this feels as if it is leading me to my true character"...and that also feels like a realistic goal and worthwhile journey to at least start to take.

 

Well that is a helpful way of looking at it.. but if true, doesn't that more or less put a huge question mark on the whole concept of a committed relationship? What's the point if someone can say "I love you - let's grow old together" every day for 14+ years and then one day wake up and say "Sorry - only joking" ?

 

 

It is very much about the individual who undergoes the process...and really, ONLY about that individual.

 

So marriage vows basically have no place in this? Just wake up one day as part of a family and say "Sorry - got a better plan" and that's it?

 

My STBXW used to vehemently detest men who left their spouses in midlife for younger women. Yet somehow she thinks her current actions [at least minus the affair] are morally justified "so I am happy for my children." Give me a break. So if I had decided one day I would be "happy" sleeping with a 20-year old then it it would have been morally right to leave my wife for a college co-ed so that I am happy for my children?

 

Again, that's just my own view, from my own experience -- which is eerily similar to hers, but without an affair.

 

And there's the rub. Do you think it is realistic for her to be able to assess our marriage and her feelings for me while she is still involved in at least an EA if not also a PA? Didn't she at least owe me a realistic attempt a counseling to include ending the competing relationship?

 

But there are more, er, 'accepting' and compassionate ways of looking at the whole picture, that will serve you and your kids better.

 

Why would/should I be compassionate toward her if her actions in this process have been extraordinarily selfish? And as for serving the kids better, that seems a non-starter considering the impact her actions will have on the kids.

[Ronni_W]

Why would/should I be compassionate toward her if her actions in this process have been extraordinarily selfish?

[1] For your own peace of mind and heart. For your own sense of self-worth.

[2] So that you can nurture compassion in your children; teach them the value and benefits of it; role-model it for them.

 

Those are really the main reasons I can think of. But if you do not value compassion, then of course it will not be a priority for you. That's perfectly fine, too.

But.

Yes, she CAN assess her relationship with you independent of ALL her other relationships. We do know how to assess relationships: we just say, "Do I want this from/with this person?" The process is the same, whether it is Mom, Spouse or Best Friend.

 

NOT saying that she is doing that...only that it is possible for human beings to do it, regardless of the depth or superficiality of their emotional ties to others. (Using a physical or emotional affair to say, "she isn't giving me/us a fair chance" might just be grasping at false hope, is what I mean.)

 

Your other questions - about the purpose and meaning of marriage, love, vows and life...well, they are BIG questions. I think it is best left for each person to arrive at her/his own choices, decisions and conclusions about what it all means on a personal level.

 

For me, I don't find it so far-fetched that my own needs, desires, insights, knowledge, etc. can change independent of my partner's -- which means that there IS a very real chance that some day our individual "stuff" won't be as complementary and 'in sync' as they are now.

Sure, I can pretend that's not the case. And I can pray and dream that won't be the case. But, for me to deny that such a possibility exists would be "unrealistic" (and stoopid, too, in my own opinion about my own self.)

 

What's the point if someone can say "I love you - let's grow old together" every day for 14+ years and then one day wake up and say "Sorry - only joking" ?

So marriage vows basically have no place in this? Just wake up one day as part of a family and say "Sorry - got a better plan" and that's it?

I'm not sure if you're being facetious(?)

 

Personally, I would not even consider that your bride took her vows in the flippant manner in which you are suggesting. Nor do I believe that she decided to become a parent like that. Nor do I think that she chose you as the father of her children, in such a manner.

 

But, if it makes you feel better to believe then, of course, that is what I would urge you to do for yourself. To me, feeling better is a very worthwhile pursuit.

 

Now also. I did ask my current partner that very same question, when we started dating and I was still wondering WTF had happened to my own marriage: "What is the point of relationships? Aren't they all just doomed to failure, anyway?"

 

And his answer was profound and simple: Maybe...but what if they're not?

[n9688m]

[2] So that you can nurture compassion in your children; teach them the value and benefits of it; role-model it for them.

 

But I also want my children to value commitment and honesty. And I want them to think their marriage vows mean something and don't just run away instantly if one day they wake up and "discover" they have been unhappy.

 

For me to be compassionate to my STBXW sends the message "It's OK" and "Don't feel bad about what you did" and "It's Ok if our kids do this in their marriages." Well that is NOT my view on this.

 

For me, I don't find it so far-fetched that my own needs, desires, insights, knowledge, etc. can change independent of my partner's

 

But don't you think you at least owe your partner the benefit of substantial discussion and counseling before making such a decision? Not a couple of pretend counseling sessions after you made your mind up and moved on to another partner?

 

 

Personally, I would not even consider that your bride took her vows in the flippant manner in which you are suggesting. Nor do I believe that she decided to become a parent like that. Nor do I think that she chose you as the father of her children, in such a manner.

 

Oh I could not be more serious. It speaks for itself. We were committed for years and then one day - poof - it's all over with no realistic option to even try to work things out.

[norajane]

And I have trouble with it because while she says that she was unaware of her unhappiness, she equally berates me by saying how could I be so unaware of her needs for so long. Well how exactly was I supposed to know if she didn't know?

This is also common amongst cheaters - they rewrite history in order to fit their current state of mind. Also common is the affair 'fog'. Google it for more information, but it is as you suspect, she cannot think clearly about what she wants or doesn't want while she is in the midst of the affair (though she denies it).

 

It works like this: wife meets someone who pays attention to her, flatters her, and makes her feel sexy, charming, beautiful, interesting. She falls for him and believes there is this intense connection. Suddenly, home life with hubby isn't as much fun, isn't exciting, and she starts to rewrite history in her mind in terms of how unhappy she has been and must be in order to rationalize why she's having the affair.

 

Yes, people can snap out of the affair fog, but first they have to stop the affair and cut contact with their affair partner. Then it takes a while for them to grieve the loss of the affair, or rather, the loss of the person who was giving them those huge shots of validation at every turn. It may take them completely losing their spouse in order to realize what they've lost.

 

But your wife does not sound like she is anywhere near the stage of wanting to end her relationship with this other guy, nor to realize that she may be throwing away her marriage only to regret it deeply later.

 

There really isn't anything you can do, other than to take the steps to walk away. You can't make her see anything - she has to get there for herself.

[Ronni_W]

But don't you think you at least owe your partner the benefit of substantial discussion and counseling before making such a decision?

Well...any decision about that would be based on what I most value -- as is human nature.

 

For example, you seem to value commitment higher than compassion -- your decisions will have huge globs of commitment attached to them, and maybe some compassion, maybe none of it.

Your stbx obviously values something different than that, and her decisions will have globs of whatever she is valuing. (It could be personal empowerment, happiness, or whatever else.)

Let's say that my important decisions include, to the best of my ability, compassion and objectivity.

 

None of us is "right and better", and neither is any one of us "wrong, flawed and immoral." Further, I do not have the right to judge you negatively just because you don't value the compassion and objectivity that I do. It is absolutely your prerogative to value whatEVER the heck you prefer, as it is your stbx's and mine.

 

For myself, I do not equate qualities like acceptance and forgiveness with the act of condoning behaviour that I, personally, do not appreciate or will not tolerate. That is, I can forgive "you" AND still never want to see "you" again. Forgiveness, I do for me...and not seeing you again, I also do for me. "You" don't enter into my choices and equations, in any significant way. Yes, it is a struggle, sometimes. And sometimes it is a bit easier.

 

 

Now, I do understand your disappointment. And I appreciate the fact that, if the situation plays out according to current appearances, you may be having a tough time seeing a 'happy/noble' role for you to step into.

 

Reading between the lines (which of course, I may be totally wrong and way off), you're seeing for yourself only [a] role of victim -- of your wife's 14-year-long lies and deception, and/or the OM, and/or the counselor, and/or some combination; or role of inadequate and unable to fulfill your 'man of the house' obligations.

 

But, IMO, another option is that you can decide that you are perfectly adequate, a wonderful human being, and 100% empowered to choose your own thoughts, feelings and interpretations of Life and your life experiences.