Is separation really just divorce?

[LookinFWD]

Hello folks-

 

I have seen a lot of good advise on here so I hope I get some cause I need it. Let me just get at it.

 

My wife of 14 years wants to see a mediator to help us separate. She doesn't exactly want a full legal separation but more of a negotiated

separation or advice from the mediator. She does want to move out that much I can tell. She is so angry she is not saying much either and seems

to be getting out a lot of built up angry etc.

 

I have told her I would change. I decided I would stop drinking completely to get that out of the picture and told her I would focus all my energy on preventing a divorce especially with the kids in mind. She does not want to have joint counseling. She basically says that I need to see someone myself and fix my problems and that she needs to get the kids out of a bad environment. She is very angry.

 

It seems she wants me to go for 3 months to a year. My kids are 10 and

7.

 

I really don't understand what separation can really do. It seems to me to really be divorce. I don't see how people that get separated can

really even get back together if they have kids and houses etc. Just to

move out is going to mean selling our house. The housing market is not the greatest so that sucks too. She knows all of this but still wants me

out and for immediate change in her life and by extension in the kids lives.

 

All the women I know say that she needs space etc and I swear I really

don't get that in the context of having kids and all of the logistical concerns of me moving out and then - what- moving back in? I completely

pay our mortgage and all bills myself. My wife has a freelance job, works from home and keeps all the money she makes in a separate account.

It seems she has been saving because she has been unhappy for a long

time and wants that money for security.

 

I am mostly to blame for the bad marriage but I just am the sort that needs a good kick and the butt and a real ultimatum to know when

to really get my act together. This is kind of shocking to me since it is

so severe.

 

I guess in a nutshell is I don't think separation makes any sense. I asked

her for enough forgiveness to get counseling together, never drink again

and fix what I needed to fix. I believe that once we go down this path with separation it is going to just make us and the kids used to being

separated and then we will just get divorced. How can you really believe

someone would reconcile? Maybe it just means that she wants a divorce but can't commit to it. What about the kids? It seems to me to get divorced is almost better for them since she will not let us take care of this ourselves. It all seems like false hopes for reconcilation to me and there is just something wrong with not doing everything possible to avoid

divorce but as I said she will not get joint counseling so it seems like a no

win situation.

 

Can someone please enlighten me on the "separation movement" if there

is one and is this something that her therapist could come up with

 

I swear I don't get it

 

Thanks for reading as I am no writer

[lovelorcet]

If you really want to win her back let her go and concentrate on yourself.

 

This may take years and maybe she is just sick your crap but the more you force her to stay the more you are going to push her away.

 

Now is your chance to get your act together and that will be positive for you with or without her in the picture.

[redblack66]

Hello folks-

 

I have seen a lot of good advise on here so I hope I get some cause I need it. Let me just get at it.

 

My wife of 14 years wants to see a mediator to help us separate. She doesn't exactly want a full legal separation but more of a negotiated

separation or advice from the mediator. She does want to move out that much I can tell. She is so angry she is not saying much either and seems

to be getting out a lot of built up angry etc.

 

I have told her I would change.

 

Wrong thing to say . Do not say it again. Work on yourself, but do not mention your changes.

 

 

I decided I would stop drinking completely to get that out of the picture and told her I would focus all my energy on preventing a divorce especially with the kids in mind. She does not want to have joint counseling. She basically says that I need to see someone myself and fix my problems and that she needs to get the kids out of a bad environment. She is very angry.

 

It seems common that wifes are angry in such situations. Often they have their own problems. I think she does not believe you that you will change. By trying to convince her that you will, you are not achieving much.

 

 

I really don't understand what separation can really do. It seems to me to really be divorce. I don't see how people that get separated can

really even get back together if they have kids and houses etc. Just to

move out is going to mean selling our house. The housing market is not the greatest so that sucks too. She knows all of this but still wants me

out and for immediate change in her life and by extension in the kids lives.

 

All the women I know say that she needs space etc and I swear I really

don't get that in the context of having kids and all of the logistical concerns of me moving out and then - what- moving back in? I completely

pay our mortgage and all bills myself. My wife has a freelance job, works from home and keeps all the money she makes in a separate account.

It seems she has been saving because she has been unhappy for a long

time and wants that money for security.

 

Do little research on what "I need space" often means. I went through this nonsense of wife needing space. We are separated (in the same house), and divorce is not far away (you can lookup my thread).

 

 

I am mostly to blame for the bad marriage but I just am the sort that needs a good kick and the butt and a real ultimatum to know when

to really get my act together. This is kind of shocking to me since it is

so severe.

 

No matter what, you are not 100% to blame. You have done things, but perhaps she has been part of why you have done certain things.

 

 

I guess in a nutshell is I don't think separation makes any sense. I asked

her for enough forgiveness to get counseling together, never drink again

and fix what I needed to fix. I believe that once we go down this path with separation it is going to just make us and the kids used to being

separated and then we will just get divorced. How can you really believe

someone would reconcile? Maybe it just means that she wants a divorce but can't commit to it. What about the kids? It seems to me to get divorced is almost better for them since she will not let us take care of this ourselves. It all seems like false hopes for reconcilation to me and there is just something wrong with not doing everything possible to avoid

divorce but as I said she will not get joint counseling so it seems like a no

win situation.

 

There are situations when separation works, but to my limited knowledge, rarely. I am also pessimistic about these separation experiments.

 

Can someone please enlighten me on the "separation movement" if there

is one and is this something that her therapist could come up with

 

I swear I don't get it

 

Thanks for reading as I am no writer

 

 

I am enlightening myself, and I don't get it that much.

 

I would recommend: get your act together and work on yourself as hard as you can and as fast as you can.

[Ronni_W]

It probably is not as easy for your wife as you might be thinking. Her anger right now is also helping her do what she MUST do to get her children "out of a bad environment" (as well as remove herself from it.) And in order to do that, she must SEPARATE them from that environment.

 

She is doing the adult thing...thinking of her children. That she wants a mediator and is aware of the housing market only shows that she has thought this through, and is fully aware of the decisions she needs to be making.

 

By your own admission, you needed this "good kick, real ultimatum" -- so why not be thanking her for finally giving you what/how you need in this area. Instead, you now seem to be looking for a kinder, gentler approach. Is it a case of, "But Honey, I didn't know you were really, really, really, REALLY serious that last time!" Do you get how that can frustrate ANYone?

 

You are talking about improving what you know needs improving BUT you haven't mentioned that you've taken one single concrete step in that direction.

 

Just a guess that you two have been here before...and you likely "promised" to do something about your drinking, and did nothing -- I guess because the "kick" wasn't "severe" enough??? You've just taken her to the wall one too many times.

 

She has NOTHING to go on, to think that this time is going to be any different than any of the prior times. You have yet to do one single thing differently!

 

It sounds as if individual therapy for your self is more in order than couples' counseling. You need to get your drinking under proper control (she's already heard the vague and ineffective "promise" that you'd stop drinking. That lie has stopped working for the both of you.)

And therapy will also help you understand that you can't keep pushing people to THEIR limits just because you can't/won't hear them the first time round.

 

No, a therapist can't "make" a client do anything that goes against the client's desires or instincts. But clients do gain an understanding of what they want, need and deserve...and clarity around their options.

 

I'd suggest to get yourself to counseling, change your current living situation to something more tenable for your wife and kids, and PRAY LIKE HECK that she will someday feel that your efforts at improving the things you KNOW must be improved were successful and sufficient.

 

You were in the batter's box...You are now at the plate! She's on the DL - not even traveling with the team - and needs you to hit a home run. Take the best swing you've ever taken, and just hope it is good enough. (It might hit foul but please don't let that stop you from trying.) Best of luck.

[Tripper]

Hello folks-

My wife of 14 years wants to see a mediator to help us separate. She doesn't exactly want a full legal separation but more of a negotiated

separation or advice from the mediator.

 

LFWD, given this situation, the first thing I would do would be to make sure that you are protected legally with respect to your financial equity position on property etc. and what access and responsibility you are going to have with respect to your children.

 

I have told her I would change. I decided I would stop drinking completely to get that out of the picture

 

I don't mean to be harsh, but if you are an alcoholic, do you have a plan for this??? Do you know what the success rate is?? I say this because what you say won't mean much to your wife HOWEVER your actions will. This is what will prove to her you're serious.. and this will also take time. So as the others have said, go to work on yourself.

 

 

I really don't understand what separation can really do. It seems to me to really be divorce. I don't see how people that get separated can

really even get back together if they have kids and houses etc.

All the women I know say that she needs space etc and I swear I really

don't get that

 

Yeah, I gotta agree with you. This is usually the beginning of the end. However men and women are different. We like to fix things; they want to mull, feel and reflect on things. Do you have a chance of reconciling?? If you want to have that chance you need to set up some ground rules. The main one being that during separation ABSOLUTELY NO DATING other people. Also set a time limit of 6 to 9 months for you to get sober and prove by your actions that you can be what you say you want to be.

 

Good Luck

[LookinFWD]

You are talking about improving what you know needs improving BUT you haven't mentioned that you've taken one single concrete step in that direction You need to get your drinking under proper control (she's already heard the vague and ineffective "promise" that you'd stop drinking. That lie has stopped working for the both of you.).

 

I have not drank one drop since the moment she told me she wanted

me to separate about 30 days ago. I have also gone to counseling for the

first time ever and I am trying to give her space too so I guess that is 3

concrete things. I have no urge to drink at all but only to prevent divorce

from happening. Nothing else matters except this right now.

 

I just don't understand why I need to move out and pay for an apartment

and the house for her and what "space" really is. I can only really get

a one year lease and it would not be a good place and my kids would think

I was no good living in a dump while my wife lives in a palace that I pay for and for a year?.

 

Thanks for everyones advise it is great but I just don't understand making someone move out of their house and having to get a lease on a second

place for a year, leave their kids, etc is going to do anything but make things worse especially for the kids. Now that I am not drinking and really

know what I need to do the environment is good for the kids and they

can tell it seems to me.

 

It seems like separation on these terms is supposed to punitive and humilating. Why would it be good for a marriage and especially for the

kids to "need space" when what is needed is change and not alienation,

punishment, humiliation, despair, lack or further break down of trust

 

My wife will only talk about the past, not the present or possibly a brighter future. She seems to have to do this to me as punishment and

humiliation which I think is draconian and not progressive at all.

 

I do not get it at all

[Ronni_W]

I have not drank one drop since the moment she told me she wanted me to separate about 30 days ago. I have also gone to counseling for the first time ever and I am trying to give her space too so I guess that is 3 concrete things.

 

That is excellent! - Congrats.

 

It would just seem that your wife needs a minimum of 3 months sobriety (and whatever other changes), perhaps as much as 12. I guess she has stopped trusting your commitment to stop drinking. I can't see as how I blame her.

 

It is likely that your wife has already suffered the alienation, punishment and despair that you are now experiencing; and for a lot longer than you. From that perspective, a "brighter future" seems less possible for her. I do understand that this is not your view. For her, it may be that she just doesn't want to set her hopes too high AGAIN, and be disappointed all over AGAIN.

 

...it would not be a good place and my kids would think I was no good living in a dump

In truth, your kids are going to take their cue from how YOU present your Self and your living arrangements.

 

A friend turned his "dump" of a bachelor apartment into a lovely little place for them -- bunk beds with cool stuff that turned it into their "fort", lots of "picnics" on the floor, etc. (Needs to be age-appropriate, of course, but can be done.)

Yes, their mom had the big house but they used to really look forward to visiting Dad -- they never noticed whatever "crummy" stuff the grown-ups saw...unless those were pointed out to them.

 

Not that it'll be EASY but there are ways around the challenges.

[lovelorcet]

I dont want to kick you when you are down but can you please explain your drinking problem a bit more to us?

 

How many times have your tried to stop in the past?

 

While 30 days is great she is going to want to see that you are in this for the long haul.

 

I grew up with an alcoholic father and he would dry out for a month or 2 maybe even a year but we always found ourself having to deal with him drinking again.

[redblack66]

The main one being that during separation ABSOLUTELY NO DATING other people. Also set a time limit of 6 to 9 months for you to get sober and prove by your actions that you can be what you say you want to be.

 

Again from experience: I asked for "NO DATING" when my wife wanted space, but she DID NOT commit. Now I know why--she had a plan to cheat.

I wanted both of us to commit to not seeing other people, let alone getting involved.

 

I do not want to give bad advice, or to be extreme, but if a partner does not commit to no dating, I would seriously consider going for divorce.

[lovelorcet]

Again from experience: I asked for "NO DATING" when my wife wanted space, but she DID NOT commit. Now I know why--she had a plan to cheat.

I wanted both of us to commit to not seeing other people, let alone getting involved.

 

I do not want to give bad advice, or to be extreme, but if a partner does not commit to no dating, I would seriously consider going for divorce.

 

You know what, you can suggest this but in the end she is going to do what she wants to do. She has been pushed this far away and HE is the one with the real work to do here.

 

I would say take care of yourself finically but give her all the space she needs. You really are not in much of a position to be making demands.

[amaysngrace]

Have you considered entering a rehab? Some companies will foot the bill if you are insured through them and will hold your job until you return.

 

I'm not sure if you'll get a paycheck though. Maybe you could look into it.

[blind_otter]

My SO recently quit drinking because I'm pregnant. To be honest with you, being the partner of an alcoholic who was herself an alcoholic in the past, when it comes to people "quitting drinking" -- heh. I'll believe it when I see it. VERY few people can quit cold turkey on their own without some kind of support system in place. It took me several years and AA to get out of my hole.

 

Personally I don't see a problem with taking a step back and separating for a while so you can see an individual counselor and work on yourself. Look, you can say "I'm changing" all you want -- but until you've done the work, taken the steps, and maintained your changes for several months it just looks like bullcrap and lip service. I'm sorry to be harsh but I speak from experience.

[lovelorcet]

"I'm changing" all you want -- but until you've done the work, taken the steps, and maintained your changes for several months it just looks like bullcrap and lip service. I'm sorry to be harsh but I speak from experience.

 

That is most likely how your wife feels. Like I have said, work on yourself.

[Ronni_W]

...if a partner does not commit to no dating, I would seriously consider going for divorce.

 

I really wanted to disagree with this BUT...

In the context of separating to "build a stronger marriage" and reconcile later, I think it is spot on. To me, it isn't *always* a sign that the person wants or plans to start dating anytime soon but it is a for sure sign that, at their deepest, they're done with the marriage.

[Meaplus3]

I have not drank one drop since the moment she told me she wanted

me to separate about 30 days ago. I have also gone to counseling for the

first time ever and I am trying to give her space too so I guess that is 3

concrete things. I have no urge to drink at all but only to prevent divorce

from happening. Nothing else matters except this right now.

 

I just don't understand why I need to move out and pay for an apartment

and the house for her and what "space" really is. I can only really get

a one year lease and it would not be a good place and my kids would think

I was no good living in a dump while my wife lives in a palace that I pay for and for a year?.

 

Thanks for everyones advise it is great but I just don't understand making someone move out of their house and having to get a lease on a second

place for a year, leave their kids, etc is going to do anything but make things worse especially for the kids. Now that I am not drinking and really

know what I need to do the environment is good for the kids and they

can tell it seems to me.

 

It seems like separation on these terms is supposed to punitive and humilating. Why would it be good for a marriage and especially for the

kids to "need space" when what is needed is change and not alienation,

punishment, humiliation, despair, lack or further break down of trust

 

My wife will only talk about the past, not the present or possibly a brighter future. She seems to have to do this to me as punishment and

humiliation which I think is draconian and not progressive at all.

 

I do not get it at all

 

It sound's to me like you really want to change and save your marriage, I really repsect that. If this was an issue of an addiction for you than perhap's she may need to contact alanon or another support group to help her understand your addiction. There's just as much support out there for her as there is for you. Do you think she might try that? I bet it would help with her anger. Good Luck to you.

 

AP:)

[LookinFWD]

Thanks to everyone but I guess I will just have to remain puzzled and

confused with the concept of separation being a good way to save a marriage especially one with children. Somebody somewhere came up with

this...

 

Either way I guess if my wife doesn't want to give me a chance after I quit drinking, entered therapy, and told her I would make my husbandry and parenting my lifes work than it is not meant to be and would probably

end in divorce anyway.

 

In my opinion a quick break with the most limited transition will be the best for the children so I think I will tell her I will not move out and we should go directly into a divorce with a mediator.

 

Does anyone agree with a long multi living arrangement separation causing more disruption to innocent children than a quick divorce. I really do and so that is why I am so against the concept of separation. This is in addition to the fact that I think it only leads to divorce anyway except

maybe if there are no children involved (in which case I believe a cooling

off period can be constructive).

 

The kids are completely innocent and deserve the least amount of disruption as possible. In my opinion that is my wife working together with

me (despite my greater share of the past problems) and working out our problems as a family in our marital home with me drink free.

 

If she says no then I say for the children a quick divorce that lands the

kids in a house with their mother as quickly as possible is better than a drawn out separation

 

Does anyone of you wise persons have advice on what is best for children

in a case like this.

 

To answer people's questions about my drinking...My wife did not like my drinking around the children I guess more than it really being a serious dependency problem. I did drink a lot I suppose but never did I get really very drunk but I knew that if I stopped (which I did without problems) it would not be an issue and eliminating issues is what I am about in trying

to turn this relationship around. I know a lot of people believe in AA and

recovery in general but I just don't think that everyone who drinks needs

to make not drinking their lifes work (for me it is just don't drink, I don't have any urge to drink in the slightest) I don't struggle with alcohol addiction in any way no more than I want to eat a ton of cookies! The

point is I know that it bothers my wife and so I just stopped to show her

that I want to work things out. Prior to her telling me to get out when she said don't drink in front of the children I told her to buzz off, I work hard

I am going to drink beer and watch football today, etc

 

The problem is simple she has this notion that I have to get out

of the house for some length of time (preferably a year is what she wants) and I don't think it is fair or good for the children and is more

damaging then us just getting a divorce and moving on as quickly as

possible.

[lovelorcet]

Sorry man, but I just read your last post and those are the words of an alcoholic. Heard them and have been disappointed by them MANY times myself.

 

-I don't really have a problem

-I can't quit anytime

-AA is not for everyone

-I deserve to drink as I am a hard working man

 

And I find it a little irritating that you are using your own children to as a negotiating tool against what your wife wants. Why are you so concerned about their needs now? Sorry I don't buy it.

 

To me it sounds like you put in 30 days worth of work and want to nail her down so either she takes you back or she says no and you can go back to drinking.

[Ronni_W]

Does anyone of you wise persons have advice on what is best for children in a case like this.

 

For each of their parents to role-model adult and positive behaviour. Not bad-mouth each other, not blame each other, not act like the victim, not use the children as pawns, be completely honest using age-appropriate language that the kids will understand, listen to your children, allow them to have whatever feelings they express, facilitate on-going relationships with grandparents, aunts/uncles, nieces/nephews on both sides, let the kids know they are loved unconditionally and NOT the cause of differences between their parents.

 

Be flexible - if there's a birthday party or wedding or some bleedin' thing on the "other side" of your children's family, don't get all hung-up with, "It's MY weekend." That only hurts the kids. EDITED TO ADD: And will alienate them from you.

 

Be the parent YOU want to be no matter how your former spouse is parenting and no matter what their other parent is doing to peeve you off.

 

It is far more important that children be loved, supported and encouraged; and treated with respect, patience and understanding than anything else we grown-ups might think is important for them.

[blind_otter]

Sorry man, but I just read your last post and those are the words of an alcoholic. Heard them and have been disappointed by them MANY times myself.

 

-I don't really have a problem

-I can't quit anytime

-AA is not for everyone

-I deserve to drink as I am a hard working man

 

And I find it a little irritating that you are using your own children to as a negotiating tool against what your wife wants. Why are you so concerned about their needs now? Sorry I don't buy it.

 

To me it sounds like you put in 30 days worth of work and want to nail her down so either she takes you back or she says no and you can go back to drinking.

 

I agree with lovelorcet 100%. This black and white, all or nothing thinking is the stinking thinking of an alcoholic.

 

I've quit drinking a hundred times. From what I've heard at meetings, and from my own experience, few alcoholics are so dependent on alcohol that they get the shakes and DTs from quitting. Most find it easy in the first few weeks, months, whatever. Then something happens, a switch goes off, you find excuses to drink. The cycle starts all over again.

 

Until you admit that you have a problem you'll be a dry drunk. Maybe you won't be drinking but you will approach life the way an unhealthy alcoholic does. Being an alcoholic isn't about craving the drink - it's about how you use alcohol and your relationship to it.

[LookinFWD]

Like another poster you only answered my question about drinking.

Your response is probably sincere and expected in this type of format.You can either believe that a person can stop drinking nobig deal or that they are really in denial. I simple do not drink anymore. I don't struggle at all. It bothers my wife and her perception is what matters.

 

For that

reason alone I told her I would not drink at all, whether I liked it or not

and maybe spend the time that I would normally watch sports and drinking

with some friends over or whatever working on the problems etc

 

To avoid people getting hung up I could have not mentioned drinking at

all. Then I could get to point but I chose to because it was something

she wanted changed- a habit- I guess it could have been smoking or

spending time at the track- whatever

 

The point is I mentioned it because it is something I did- I changed

to show her that I would make changes and it was a specific complaint

she said I smelled like beer and I did cause I drank a beer!! I said ok

I won't drink beer!

 

Now all she wants to talk about is all the beer I drank 30 days ago, how

I smelled like beer 30 days ago and that I need to leave the house!

 

Well not really it is more about leaving the house at this point!

[LookinFWD]

Ronni-

 

Thanks for that post it is really sweet and you obviously have had

kids to feel that way and be that right or you are just awesomely

empathetic!

 

I guess my question is would a long separation without the real hope of reconciliation be better or worse for children than a quick divorce.

 

I think the sooner they have a stable environment ie. end up in a house with their mother were they will live for hopefully several years than me leaving my house and living in an apartment in a "separation"

 

Thanks to all for putting up with this thread and me but I have to solve

this soon and deal with it right away after Christmas

[amaysngrace]

Do you know what you should do? Call a lawyer. And do it before you leave the house.

[Ronni_W]

...wanted changed- a habit- I guess it could have been smoking or spending time at the track- whatever

 

I think you've hit on the point others are trying to make -- if it is a habit, that is one thing. The danger is in not recognizing when the "habit" has become an addiction; or trying to minimize an addiction by calling it a habit.

 

I have alcoholic tendencies. I know this. I accept and respect the potential damage if I don't keep it in mind. That is just prudent but would not be possible if I didn't first acknowledge my problem.

 

Whether or not you are an alcoholic, IMPORTANT TO YOU is that alcohol is about to cost you your marriage. You are receiving valuable advice and insight from others' personal struggles - as children of alcoholics and/or suffering from alcoholism themselves.

 

You can choose to just take what is meaningful for you, and will be helpful for you and your family. You can also ask yourself (outside of this forum) why the topic gets you feeling so defensive?

 

It may be a good idea to at least *consider* what Blind_Otter wrote, in terms of your own relationship with alcohol, and what types of feelings it helps you relieve or cope with.

[Ronni_W]

Ronni- Thanks for that post it is really sweet and you obviously have had kids

 

No, actually, I don't have biological kids (is that the term?) I've just been witness to the most terrible emotional abuse that so-called "adults" put their children through. I guess not having kids I can observe it from a more neutral place. It is gut-wrenching and heart-breaking.

[blind_otter]

Lookin, I've both been where you are, and now I'm where you Wife is. My partner is an alcoholic who is in denial about his problem. He didn't drink every day. He would go on the occassional binge and be done with it for a week or two. Just this past weekend he had one of his drinking sprees and came home from poker all apologetic and promising to never drink again. I have disconnected from him on some level. At this point, I'll believe it when I see it and I have no faith in him.

 

What gets me is that he can't see what he's doing to our relationship with his abuse of alcohol. To him, it's no big deal, he can quit whenever he wants, and quitting alcohol is just a favor to me. And that's what makes his promises so empty. He could not drink for the rest of his life, but if he keeps approaching life the same way he has been, it won't matter.

 

Alcoholism isn't just about the alcohol. It's the way you handle your interpersonal relationships. It's the way you handle your life. It's that very thought that "I worked hard today so I deserve a drink." NO! That's not what it should be like.

 

IMO your wife is fed up for a reason. Hell, so am I, with my SO. And until he can walk the walk for an extended period of time, my belief in him and my faith in us is shot.