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blackbird_brokenwing

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blackbird_brokenwing

I've never been good with brevity, but I'll try to keep this as concise as possible while still providing the pertinent details. **Coming back to the beginning to say it is long still, but it's such a complicated situation I felt like it needed all of this!**

 

 

 

 

I am a lesbian and I was in a long distance relationship for the past year and a half. I knew my girlfriend for six months before we started dating. Her mother had a stroke the year before we met and was partially paralyzed, meaning she required constant assistance. My girlfriend (I'll call her A) moved her mother into her home and became her full time caretaker. She had to hire 3 other caretakers who rotate shifts while A is at work. She has no family or friends who are willing to help. A literally had no one else willing to help for free, even for a single day.

 

 

Because of this, the travel was incredibly lopsided. In that year and a half, I drove there and back 30 times by myself. That is not an exaggeration. It was a little over 1,000 miles round trip and I went there every other week or so. A came to me 4 times in that span, but I always completely understood because it cost thousands to pay the caretakers for extra time/overnights. I helped with her mother as much as I could when I was there, often taking on the bulk of the work while I was there just so A could get some much needed sleep. It isn't just a physical burden to care for her mother either; her mom was the most selfish, self-centered, narcissistic, and demanding person I've met in my whole life. Not to mention ungrateful. She had no problem getting you up 3 or 4 times every night, among other things. It was like having a 200 pound infant with a demonic disposition.

 

 

 

A was completely neglected by her mother as a child. Her mother never really wanted her and often blamed her daughter for ending her modeling career. I truly believe the reason A is so adamant on caring for her mother in her home (and killing herself in the process) is because she is still longing for her mother's love and approval.

 

 

 

We definitely didn't have a perfect relationship. Having her mother in the mix made things extremely difficult. The distance didn't help but was the least of our problems. But despite everything working against us, we really did get along well. We are both very loving and thoughtful people, very much interested in romance and had no problem showering love and affection on each other. I was there for her during multiple meltdowns when her mother was being so demanding and ungrateful. She was there for me through the death of my grandmother (who raised me) back in September. We talked about our feelings, we addressed all issues between us. We never made up without figuring out what happened. I became a part of her household, I had my own drawer and bedside table, I fed the dogs/cats, cleaned house, drove her car, etc. For a long distance couple I was very familiar with her house and basically lived there 50% of the time. We had plans for me to move there when my apartment lease is up.

 

 

 

Having said all of that, we had issues with jealousy. It's not the kind of jealousy where you suspect something or even have reason for suspicion, it's the kind of jealousy where you're insecure about yourself and let it get the better of you. We made an agreement long ago to tell each other when we were hanging out with other people or who we were texting (if it was in each other's presence), etc. Just to keep the other informed and make jealousy less likely. It worked well. But last weekend, we both slipped up on telling the other about times we had hung out with other girls.

 

 

 

What started as a small spat about this escalated beyond anything either of us have ever come close to. I don't want to point fingers and break it down to every little thing she did or I did, I know we both made mistakes and said things we didn't mean. But it's pertinent to share this detail: I smacked her. Popped her. Hit her. Whatever you want to call something that is less than a punch but not really a slap. We were driving back to her house from my town (a 9 hour drive) and although I had tried numerous times to apologize and remedy the spat we had before we started the drive, she had refused to let go or forgive me. I admit I am a talker, I want to immediately talk it out and make things better, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong and apologizing first. She on the other hand is very stubborn and needs lost of space to process conflict and more or less shuts down completely when conflict arises.

 

 

 

And again I say that we both made mistakes that day, but I'll say this: I continued to poke and ask if we could discuss it or at least just move on, but to be fair I had given it hours at this point. How long was she going to punish me and ruin the ONE SINGLE roadtrip where we drove together (one that I was very much looking forward to since I previously mentioned I drove there and back 30 times all by myself). But she continued to be stubborn and refuse to speak to me in a calm manner. She began calling me every name in the book (names we agreed to NEVER call one another because of how damaging and hurtful they are) and as I was crying and begging her to calm down and just stop (mind you I'm driving and she's flailing her arms in the passenger seat), she didn't stop screaming. And that's when I hit her. I didn't break, bruise, or bleed anything. But I admit that I hit her and I completely own that. I have never hit another living thing in my life, I do not struggle with feelings of rage like that. I don't hit walls or pillows or anything really, my anger manifests into girly crying and screaming. But I lost my cool and without even looking where I was hitting, I whacked.

 

 

 

The rest is kind of history. She completely and totally lost it, made all sorts of accusations about how I was an abuser and "just like the others" (she has told me she's been in abusive relationships before). Kept insisting I would do it again and this is how it starts and that she was afraid of me. It was bad. I immediately begged for forgiveness, pulled over and tried to console her. She threatened getting me arrested if I touched her again. I continued to ask for forgiveness and I spent an hour praying to God out loud asking for forgiveness and direction on what to do. She remained silent.

 

 

 

When I got to her house, she had calmed down and seemed genuinely concerned about where I was going to go (it was 2 in the morning and I'm obviously 500+ miles from my home or town). I ended up sleeping in my car, but I didn't tell her that. We had a concert to go to the next day and at some point on the car ride I had asked if we could still go. She had vehemently said no and how dare I even think of the concert and she was far too traumatized to think about going. But she did end up going the next day, and we saw each other. I tentatively approached her and said I was glad she came. We exchanged a few words and she agreed to wait in line with me. After a while I went to the bathroom with another girl I had met in line and while I was gone, A left the line. Texted me that I ruined the concert for her and that she would never contact me again. She said to leave her alone and she was blocking my number. And she did, blocked my number and all of my social media.

 

 

Like I said before, I completely own what I did. I immediately felt terrible and have been torturing myself since it happened wondering how I could have possibly done that. But the day of the concert was on her. I didn't ask her to come, in fact I was sure she wouldn't. I didn't make her stand with me or talk to me. In all honesty I think she left because she was jealous I walked off with another girl and she didn't know where we went. She made the decision to give up the concert even though I had offered to leave if it would mean she'd stay (it meant a lot to her).

 

 

This all happened last Monday and Tuesday (a week ago). In that time I thought of nothing else except when sleeping. I have tried so hard to research what this means. Am I really an abuser like she says? I know that physical violence is wrong, I *KNOW* that. I never want that to be a part of my life again. But our relationship up until that moment had NONE of the other signs of an abusive relationship like she was claiming. If anyone held the upper hand, it was her. She knew I would stick around through almost anything and that I was devoted to making the relationship work. She had a much stronger personality, far more stubborn, and had a short temper. She never came close to hitting me, but she threw things when mad or slammed doors, quick to raise her voice, etc. Again, I know she had a good heart and I don't mean to trash her or excuse what I did, I just think it's important to note that if anyone had more control over our relationship, it was her. Which is why it's so devastating to me to hear her saying I'm an abuser.

 

 

She has been in therapy for a few months. She had gone for years and then stopped for a few years, but restarted last fall. She always shared with me what she and her therapist talked about, and it was overwhelmingly me. Sometimes it was her mother, but she was really working on herself to be better in our relationship. Sometimes her therapist would even side with me and help A see where I was coming from, and A felt comfortable enough sharing that with me. I can only hope when she does see her therapist again, that she is able to at least break down some of what happened because knowing A, she hasn't talked to anyone about it and has tried to pretend nothing is wrong. I know that's easier than dealing.

 

 

I made an appointment with a therapist last week. My appointment is tomorrow. I've been counting down the days until it happens, and I swear I want to speak to this professional for hours. I know it takes time though. I am just having SUCH a hard time processing all of this. How did we go from making future plans, lying in bed and lovingly sharing our deepest feelings THAT VERY MORNING, to *this*? Will A truly never speak to me again, or do you think she's just angry and will change her heart/mind about completely cutting me out? Am I really a monster for what I did? Is it forgivable? Did what I do erase all of her actions leading up to and since? I know I need to give her space and time, but I've been told I should write her a letter when I do decide to reach out. Is this wise? And how long should I give it? A few weeks? A month? Multiple months?

 

 

 

Do you think what I did warranted her reaction, or maybe it triggered a flashback to a time when an ex truly did beat her? Was she being dramatic or was she truly scared?

 

Even if what I did was every bit as bad as she made it, I would own that. I want help and to be better. And for her to truly know I love her to the ends of the earth and I am sorry.

 

 

 

I am just so heartbroken. We talked every single day since we started dating. Not a day has gone by in a 18 months that we didn't speak. The loneliness is so hard. I left my social media accessible to her in case she looks, I don't want to play games by blocking her back and I also don't want to post things making it look like I'm happy or okay because frankly, I'm not. So I've left them available to her but not posted anything. I feel so cut off and sad. The hole she's left in my heart and my mind is almost too much to bear. I know I've said I was sorry a hundred or more times already but I want to say it again every day.

 

 

Any advice would be appreciated, even if it's to tell me I'm a monster and don't deserve her. I appreciate anyone who managed to read all of that!

Edited by blackbird_brokenwing
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I understand what you think you sacrificed to make the relationship work. I used to drive to my ex who lived over an hour away almost daily for short periods of time because her work scheduled always changed and she was a single mother so it was easier for me to go to her. She only came to my house about 4 times while we were together. It seemed one sided and appeared to me at times that I was putting in all of the work because of the driving. When I looked at what she was juggling including a relationship with me it didn't seem that way but that was only after the relationship was over. I would say that maybe you had some regret of her and/or her mother because it seemed you were putting in all of the work so you may have been harder than if the driving and visiting was a little more equal. I'm not justifying anyone's behavior but just sharing the experiences and conclusions I have dealt with in the recent months. Yes it does suck to lose someone you spoke to everyday and there will be set backs but everything does get easier. Try no contact for at least a month and see where you are at. Getting back together right now seems like a bad idea as past issues will just come up again and some time apart will probably be good for a while if not permanently. It will get better.

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seekingpeaceinlove

No one but your ex knows whether she will forgive you..even she may not know what to do now.

 

With that said, it seems like you two had a lot of love for each other and you gave A LOT of yourself in this relationship. Taking care of her mother is a huge huge bonus in my book. Trust me, she won't forget that. If you were really good to her during your relationship...she won't forget it.

 

When a relationship turns physically violent (even one time) there's a line that is crossed and the relationship may or may not be able to survive it. You know what you did was wrong and it's commendable that you are seeking therapy. No matter how angry someone makes you..you need to learn mechanisms to keep your anger in check and to never lash out physically.

 

With that one action, you broke her trust. While her actions leading up to the incident was also wrong...you need to focus on you and be accountable for your own actions..which you are.

 

Give her some space and time. Then reach out to her in a few weeks. Forgive yourself for the mistake you made and commit to bettering yourself so that you never lash out like that again..especially to someone you love. If after some time, your ex does not want to have anything to do with you..you will have to respect her wishes and move on.

 

I have done far less for my exes than you have for yours and all of mine have come back at some point wanting a second chance. There is hope. Have faith but focus on yourself right now. Prove that you regret your actions and love her by dilligently going to therapy and working yourself.

 

Good luck and BIG HUGS.

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I know that you are in a painful place right now, but it is of vital importance that you take care of yourself physically, and mentally. You have to do the basics.

 

 

Generally speaking, when someone is with their ex, that preoccupation causes the person to neglect themselves.

 

 

Are you eating healthily?

 

Are you drinking enough water?

 

Are you exercising?

 

Are you spending time with other people, family and friends?

 

Are you getting out of the house enough?

 

Are you avoiding drugs and alcohol?

 

Are you keeping up with your responsibilities?

 

 

These are the things you need to do before you do anything else.

 

 

Take care.

Edited by Satu
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  • 2 weeks later...
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blackbird_brokenwing

I made a thread here explaining the situation, but to summarize:

 

My girlfriend (of a year and a half) and I had a fantastic weekend and then got into a very petty fight. She wouldn't let it go or forgive me, even when she was the one who owed an apology. She wound up screaming at me and threatening me while I was driving and I hit her (the first time I've ever done that to anyone). She immediately hated me, told me she never wanted to see or hear from me again, and blocked me on all social media. That was 3.5 weeks ago and I haven't heard anything since.

 

Since then I have seen a therapist twice (I have my third appointment this afternoon) and I saw a grief counselor that I had been seeing last fall when my grandmother passed. Both counselors have told me that based on my description, it's likely my girlfriend has Borderline Personality Disorder, or at least tendencies. The diagnoses is a hard one to make even when the professional is dealing directly with the patient, so I take the potential diagnoses with a grain of salt. However since I was told that, I've immersed myself in reading about it and I fear they are right.

 

After the incident and breakup, I felt like I was a monster. My girlfriend certainly made me feel that way, and just the fact that I could physically hit someone I love completely devastated me. I hated myself. I felt (and still sort of feel) that if I just hadn't done it that everything would be okay right now. I had such confusing emotions inside of me because on the one hand I was completely remorseful and filled to the brim with guilt and self-loathing, but on the other hand I knew it's not in my nature and that I'm a good person and I've never done anything even close to this before, so I wanted to defend myself. I had people recommending Anger Management and that just felt so unnecessary to me; I'm not in denial at all but I've never had a problem with anger or violence, even in a small degree. I don't get angry often and when I do I pretty much just cry. I've never felt rage or the urge to hit something. So the past month I have felt very misunderstood.

 

Even as I write this it pains me. Honestly I would rather it be my fault because if it's my fault, it's something I can "fix" and something I can control. But the more I'm reading, the more I see that for a year and a half, I forgave and excused away her emotionally abusive behavior. She manipulated me in countless ways, from using the silent treatment/cold shoulder (for hours or even days when I would be frantically apologizing for whatever I'd done), to NEVER accepting blame, to isolating me from my friends, to guilting me left and right over minuscule infractions like falling asleep before texting goodnight (and then not forgiving me no matter how hard I pleaded). And when she got mad (which was often), I was always the brunt of her anger. She never hit me, but withdrawal, silence, cold/curt answers, or screaming were common. She was "violent" in other ways - traffic infuriated her and she often punched her steering wheel while screaming and cursing at other drivers. She hosts a radio program and when she would mess up, she would keep calm until commercial and then heave her headphones across the room while banging her fists on the counter. A few months ago she was so mad at me she bashed the front of her dresser in and then ripped the wood panel right off the drawer. If she was mad at anything, even things that had absolutely nothing to do with me, she was NOT nice to me.

 

Anyway, I'm just at such a loss. I feel so hopeless and defeated. A common characteristic of people with BPD is splitting - where they think in black and white terms and you are either one or the other, no gray area. I've been put into the black and that's that. I'm an evil monster now whom she won't even speak to. In a matter of HOURS, we went from making future plans and holding each other lovingly to her having completely removed me from her life. Deleted, blocked, and the over 100 pictures of us together were removed. It's devastating. I feel like I'm grieving a death. One minute here, the next, COMPLETELY gone.

 

Does anyone have experience dating a BPD person? In all honesty I would take her back and agree to work through it with her if she would let me. She's in therapy but has only been going for 4/5 months. But since she is in recovery and since I am now way more educated on what she's dealing with, I feel like I am better prepared to handle her.

 

It's just so damn hard to have felt like the sole person at fault for 3 weeks (which felt like 3 years) to now wondering if what I did was a reaction to being needled and poked for over a year and never fighting back...

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You are actually lucky that she has made a clean break. It's understandable that you're feeling the way you are, but getting back together would just end up being an ongoing disaster. The bottom line is you can't fix it. It's just the way she is and it's not your fault, and now, fortunately it's no longer your problem other than coming to terms with it emotionally. Keep going to therapy and focus on your own susceptibility and why you were drawn to (and continue to be) such a dysfunctional relationship. Your goal should be healthy relationships in the future with fully functional women... to believe in yourself enough to know that you deserve to be treated well, and that you are worthy of being loved by a healthy woman who doesn't make YOU feel broken. Yes, I have experience.

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I drove there and back 30 times by myself.... a little over 1,000 miles round trip.
Blackbird, I hope you realize that -- in the first 25 trips alone -- you had driven completely around the earth for this woman. Then you drove an additional 5,500 miles.

 

Both counselors have told me that based on my description, it's likely my girlfriend has Borderline Personality Disorder, or at least tendencies.
I'm not surprised to hear that. The behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational jealousy, controlling behavior, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, icy withdrawal, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD.

 

We had a fantastic weekend and then got into a very petty fight.... She wound up screaming at me and threatening me.
BPDers typically start the very WORST fights immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times. The reason is that, although they crave intimacy like nearly everyone else, they cannot tolerate it for very long because their self identities are so weak. During intimate moments, a BPDer may quickly start feeling like you are suffocating, controlling, and engulfing her.

 

Because a BPDer has such weak personal boundaries, she may even feel like she is evaporating into thin air -- as she loses herself while merging into your strong personality. The result is that it is common for BPDers to start a fight (to push you away) immediately after an intimate evening or weekend spent together -- or right in the middle of a wonderful vacation.

 

She was completely neglected by her mother as a child. Her mother never really wanted her.
In a recent survey of nearly 35,000 American adults, 70% of the BPDers interviewed reported they had been abandoned or abused by a parent during their childhoods.

 

I hit her... less than a punch but not really a slap.... I felt like I was a monster.... just the fact that I could physically hit someone I love completely devastated me.... but on the other hand I knew it's not in my nature and that I'm a good person.
It is extremely difficult to live in a toxic, abusive relationship with a BPDer without starting to exhibit some of those abusive traits yourself. The abused ex-partners of BPDers are very familiar with this process. They refer to it as "picking up fleas."

 

She threatened getting me arrested if I touched her again.
Believe her. My BPDer exW had me arrested on the bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. My next-door neighbor watched the police handcuff me. When I got out of jail 3 days later, I found that she had obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a D in this State).

 

A common characteristic of people with BPD is splitting.... One minute here, the next, COMPLETELY gone.
A BPDer is too emotionally immature to handle strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. Her subconscious therefore will "split off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., the love), putting it out of reach of her conscious mind. This splitting can occur in less than ten seconds, as you already know so well.

 

Importantly, this does not mean that her love for you has disappeared from her mind. On the contrary, it likely is still there. I mention this because, if your exGF is a BPDer, she likely will flip back to loving you -- perhaps in another month or two -- just as quickly as she started hating you. It will occur in ten seconds if something triggers those loving feelings.

 

I would take her back.... since she is in recovery and since I am now way more educated on what she's dealing with, I feel like I am better prepared to handle her.
No, please listen to @salparadise. He gave you good advice. If your exGF has strong BPD traits, all the reading you did has better prepared you for dealing with your guilt while walking away. It helps you understand that the only way she will accept you back is if you continue harming her with your enabling behavior. That new knowledge, however, does not prepare you "to handle her," as you say, if she has strong BPD traits.

 

Instead, you will always find yourself in a lose/lose predicament with a BPDer. The reason is that her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you cannot avoid triggering one fear without drawing closer to triggering the other.

 

As you draw close to assure her of your love, you will trigger her engulfment fear, causing her to feel controlled and suffocated. Yet, as you back away to give her space to breath, you will start triggering her abandonment fear. Importantly, there is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "too far") where you can safely stand. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years looking for that Goldilocks position. I learned that it simply does not exist.

 

She's in therapy but has only been going for 4/5 months.
Most major cities offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., CBT and DBT) for BPDers. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to stay in such a program long enough to make a real difference. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength required to accomplish that. Moreover, those that do are unable to accomplish it in 5 months. Several years, at least, will be required.

 

Because a BPDer never had an opportunity in early childhood to learn important emotional skills, she needs several years to acquire those skills. A BPDer has to learn, e.g., how to do self soothing, how to regulate her own emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to trust, how to remain in the present instead of escaping (with daydreams) into the past and future, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident truths.

 

Does anyone have experience dating a BPD person?
Like Sal, I have such experience. I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and three MCs nearly every week for 15 years. It did not make a dent in her BPD symptoms. Not one dent.

 

To be successful, a BPDer has to have a strong desire to fix herself so that she will take advantage of the therapy instead of just playing mind games with the therapist. Perhaps your exGF is one of those rare jewels who will be able to accomplish that. I certainly hope so. Yet, even if that occurs, you may have to drive around the world another ten times before you ever find out.

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If you think your ex Girlfriend may have BPD, then that is up to her to figure out, work through and get help, if that's what she wants, if that's what she needs. It had nothing to do with you. Let her get on with that.

 

You, first and foremost need to respect her decision of ending it and blocking you. Whatever she may have done, said to you over the past year and a half, does not excuse your behaviour. You hit her. You, actually hit her. Focus on that, focus on you. Let her go. She was super smart to leave you and not look back. You can't go figuring her out now and blaming her for the lead up to your actions.

 

Learn from this, accept this, and move on. Please. Leave her be.

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Like Sal, I have such experience. I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and three MCs nearly every week for 15 years. It did not make a dent in her BPD symptoms. Not one dent.

 

To be successful, a BPDer has to have a strong desire to fix herself so that she will take advantage of the therapy instead of just playing mind games with the therapist. Perhaps your exGF is one of those rare jewels who will be able to accomplish that. I certainly hope so. Yet, even if that occurs, you may have to drive around the world another ten times before you ever find out.

 

What Downtown and I are is saying is... even in therapy, chances are slim that she's make any noticeable progress at all, and nonexistent that she'd ever be cured completely. It's not like a bout of depression or similar mental health issues that are transitory; people with personality disorders exhibit chronic, pervasive problems getting along with people in all kinds of different contexts," says Thomas R. Lynch, PhD (ama.org). it would be more like trying to cure someone of being left-handed. They can learn to compensate, somewhat, but they aren't ever going to be anything other than left-handed. This is something you have to accept.

 

This is why I said you're lucky that she has made a clean break. The alternative, given your predisposition to wanting her back and trying to make it work, is a lifetime of misery. There are certain matching personalities that are particularly vulnerable to borderlines, and you're almost certainly one of them. What you need to do now is figure out your half of the equation so that you can become BPD proof in the future. It's pointless to waste decades of your life trying to appease someone who cannot be appeased.

 

I hope you'll come back and post again... all best to you.

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it's great you are in therapy to process what has happened. It might be helpful for you to also understand what role you play(ed) in being in a relationship with someone who possesses traits of BPD so you don't find yourself in a similar situation again.

 

break the cycle. good luck and {{{hugs}}}

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blackbird_brokenwing

First of all I want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read and respond. I really do appreciate your time. Second, I am posting this from my phone which is a bit more difficult but alas, I am not near my laptop right now. Therefore this may not be formatted as well as I would like but I'm going to try.

 

If you think your ex Girlfriend may have BPD, then that is up to her to figure out, work through and get help, if that's what she wants, if that's what she needs. It had nothing to do with you. Let her get on with that.

 

You, first and foremost need to respect her decision of ending it and blocking you. Whatever she may have done, said to you over the past year and a half, does not excuse your behaviour. You hit her. You, actually hit her. Focus on that, focus on you. Let her go. She was super smart to leave you and not look back. You can't go figuring her out now and blaming her for the lead up to your actions.

 

Learn from this, accept this, and move on. Please. Leave her be.

Believe me when I say that I have focused on the hit. That moment lasting no more than a second or two has received more ruminating than any other this past month. I know there is no "excusing" it and if you refer back to what I wrote, you would see that I want to blame myself and that for three weeks following, I did. Completely. I'm not trying to deflect the blame back on her. As I said in my original post, I wish it were all my fault because then I would have answers. Closure. A real clear definition of what to work on. But I'm not sure you're that well versed in the dynamic of pwBPD and the non because I believe you would then see that this really isn't about me hitting her. It's about the more than a year of the cycle of emotional abuse and enabling that went on, among other things. The relationship didn't really end because of physical violence. That may be what she tells herself is the reason, but I believe any rational and healthy person would be able to know me, know my pattern, known this isn't me at all, and realize that I was needled into it. That it wasn't about power and control on my part, but a reaction to an extended period of emotional and psychological abuse. Victims of physical or sexual abuse are not asked to examine the reason they kick their attacker. So I don't think I agree that it is useful for me to focus on that moment where I hit her. I own it, I have apologized knigh on a thousand times for it, and truly meant it. I have looked at myself and the reasons I did it, committed myself to a therapist to begin exploring my part of this relationship (a lot to do with codependency), et al. But that is about all I can do regarding that piece of the puzzle.

 

Downtown, I was hoping you would post. I have read a handful of your other posts and found your list of 18 signs of BPD to be very informative. I read them aloud to myself and even gave an example of each (again, to myself, hah). It's uncanny how different, yet predictable the human can be thanks to the study of mental health.

 

But anyway, I don't have the time right now to be more specific about your post, but I really want to. I will come back and do that. What I do want to ask though is: are we as "nons" just supposed to always give up on BPDers? Are they really that hopeless of a people? Do they not deserve love too? My therapist actually told me that BPD is the easiest of the personalities disorders to treat. Now of course that doesn't insinuate it's "easy," just as far as PDs go, it's not as difficult. She also told me that sometimes, persistence pays off and if I really love my ex-girlfriend, to not give up. To keep sending her letters in order to flip myself back to white and then I can have the opportunity to talk to her about BPD. It may be a fruitless effort, but since it's a spectrum disorder, not every BPDer is as "bad" as the next. Perhaps there is hope? Can I ask why you're so quick to dismiss this person forever?

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I wonder why, then, would you take her back? If it was an emotional rollercoaster, why want her back for another spin around the tracks. You says it's not about what you did, but actually about her....how about you put yourself first, and ask why are you drawn to this woman, this relationship, this cycle of emotional abuse? Together you both play the part that makes the relationship toxic. It's not about who did the worst things....it's not working, it's toxic. That's why I suggested you leave her be. Her problems are hers, yours are yours.

 

I am familiar with BPD. I have a good Friend that is diagnosed with it, get refuses medication and help. There are times when she's "on one" I can't be around her. If she had her way she'd use and abuse...followed by sorries and tears. I've learnt how to protect myself from being hurt.

 

Your ex has cut contact, which suggests she wants nothing to do with you. Why want someone who doesn't want you? Let alone abuse you? Break the cycle. You have a clean start.

 

Breakups are tough, very tough. I think you are going through the bartering stage, yet to reach acceptance.

 

I wish you great things.

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This really isn't about me hitting her. It's about the more than a year of the cycle of emotional abuse and enabling that went on.
I agree. After an abused partner has been living with a BPDer for a year, it is common for that partner to become so confused and disoriented by the BPDer's distorted perceptions -- and by the BPDer's rages and verbal abuse -- that the partner will start feeling like she is losing her mind. And it is common for those partners to start mirroring some of the BPDer's dysfunctional behaviors. When that happens, nobody is more shocked and horrified than the "non" partner herself.

 

Not every BPDer is as "bad" as the next.
As your quotation marks indicate -- but I nonetheless will state explicitly -- BPDers are not bad people. On the contrary, all the BPDers I've met personally are good and caring people and, as long as you don't draw close enough to trigger their fears, they generally exhibit a high level of empathy. Moreover, as you already know so well, BPDers generally are very very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

Do BPDers not deserve love too?
Because BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old, you are essentially asking whether children -- and adults behaving like young children -- deserve love. Of course they do. This does not mean, however, that they are capable of sustaining a healthy marriage or other LTR.

 

Are we as "nons" just supposed to always give up on BPDers? Are they really that hopeless of a people?
There is always hope. As I said above, most major cities offer excellent treatment programs that can teach BPDers the emotional skills they never had a chance to learn in childhood. For folks having only moderate BPD traits, there is a good chance of success with those treatment programs.

 

For folks having very strong traits, however, the chance of making a real change in their behavior is very small. The main reason is that BPDers typically lack the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to stay in those programs for several years. Because BPDers are filled with self loathing and shame, the last thing they want to find is one more flaw to add to the long list of things they hate about themselves.

 

My therapist actually told me that BPD is the easiest of the personalities disorders to treat.
As you recognize, saying BPD is "the easiest" PD to treat is not saying much, given that all PDs are regarded as difficult to treat. By "difficult to treat," I don't mean that psychologists don't know how to treat it. On the contrary, there are many excellent treatment programs that -- if completed -- have high success rates for reducing the severity of BPD traits. Hence, "difficult to treat" refers to the fact that treatment takes several years and generally is very expensive.

 

It also refers to the reluctance of BPDers to seek treatment (due to their lack of self awareness) and, in the rare cases where they do, the usual result of them dropping out far too early. They typically drop out because, as soon as the therapist establishes a close relationship with them, he will start triggering their fears. Moreover, because BPDers are unable to trust themselves, they are unable to trust other people -- including the therapist. It is difficult to do therapy when the client cannot trust the therapist.

 

Can I ask why you're so quick to dismiss this person forever?
I did not dismiss her as being untreatable. As I said earlier, "Perhaps your exGF is one of those rare jewels who will be able to accomplish that. I certainly hope so." Her chance of success is largely determined by the severity of her BPD symptoms. Not having met her, I cannot know how strong those symptoms are. Success also will be determined by her level of self awareness and ego strength. Again, I cannot know how strong those characteristics are either.

 

I don't have the time right now to be more specific about your post, but I really want to. I will come back and do that.
Please do. I will look forward to reading more of your responses.
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That sounds like an incredibly toxic relationship and it seems like both of you abused each other. I do not believe that you two should get back together unless/until a lot of work on both of you, individually, has been done.

 

edit: that isn't to say that it won't happen. she could turn again with breadcrumbs easily, and you could eat them up, I'm sure, and get back together tomorrow. It won't fix the huge problems, though, in my opinion.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

I have noticed a few threads started by guys who (think) that their exes had BPD and it raises a really interesting issue.

 

I would say my experience is not unusual and it is this: I think my ex was BPD but I dont know for sure. She wasn't diagnosed when I was with her (that I know of) and I have no way of knowing if she was since.

 

Chances are, however, she was not diagnosed or treated. You would think that if she was receiving treatment she would have come to the realization that her ex(s) was a victim of her mental illness and attempt to make amends.

 

Still waiting for an apology.

 

Anyway, point is this. Some of us never know for sure if their ex was BPD or had a mental illness that was at the heart of the collapse in the relationship.

 

Personally, Id love to know for sure but will likely never get that.

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blackbird_brokenwing
I have noticed a few threads started by guys who (think) that their exes had BPD and it raises a really interesting issue.

 

I would say my experience is not unusual and it is this: I think my ex was BPD but I dont know for sure. She wasn't diagnosed when I was with her (that I know of) and I have no way of knowing if she was since.

 

Chances are, however, she was not diagnosed or treated. You would think that if she was receiving treatment she would have come to the realization that her ex(s) was a victim of her mental illness and attempt to make amends.

 

Still waiting for an apology.

 

Anyway, point is this. Some of us never know for sure if their ex was BPD or had a mental illness that was at the heart of the collapse in the relationship.

 

Personally, Id love to know for sure but will likely never get that.

I am actually a girl (OP). But yeah, I feel confident my ex is BPD. She fits every single characteristic and I have spoken to my therapist at length about it. As time goes on and I think back, I remember things she told me her therapist told her that sound like the therapist DID know that my ex had BPD and her therapist was advising her accordingly, just didn't give it a name. Perhaps out of fear of scaring my ex away.

 

Anyway, I feel you though. Mental illness causing the breakup is just a damn heart wrenching thing. It's so much worse than "normal" breakups that I've experienced many times before. I never knew how painful this could be. All of my significant relationships have ended because things faded and we lost the spark. This one had the spark the morning of. It is a haunting I won't soon shake unfortunately.

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bluefeather
Mental illness causing the breakup is just a damn heart wrenching thing. It's so much worse than "normal" breakups that I've experienced many times before. I never knew how painful this could be. All of my significant relationships have ended because things faded and we lost the spark. This one had the spark the morning of. It is a haunting I won't soon shake unfortunately.

 

I'm going to be a little bold and make a hypothesis that the reason relationships that "faded" are easier is because both sides have been able to slowly edge off the emotions that feel good.

 

But in relationships like this, one side cuts it off sort of around the peak of those emotions - which is about as often as always.

 

Imagine walking down a stair case. Now imagine being pushed off. That makes quite a difference. The chemicals in the brain that felt great have been suddenly taken away. I had no time to slowly get off these drugs; they were just taken away and I must now go through some hard withdrawal symptoms. I have no choice. So my body will experience anxiety, depression, and any other kind of negative emotions it chooses.

 

If we can use logic to understand that this feeling of lacking is just the body's reaction to absence of chemicals, it might help to subdue these negative emotions. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. Like now that I explain this to you, I also explain it to myself and, in this moment, realize that what this person did to me, I could not and would not do to someone else. So with that said, I use logic to come to the conclusion that despite any sadness and/or longing that I feel regarding this person, she is truly not the one for me. I dig through the massive amounts of dirt in my mind that says "I don't want anyone else," and see that, truly, I desire someone better.

 

We must respect ourselves more than we have been. We deserve better.

 

Someone once said to me, "Imagine the things you loved about this person... now imagine someone else who has these qualities, but won't abuse you." She's out there somewhere. I will find her. I hope you find yours too.

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I think my ex was BPD but I dont know for sure. She wasn't diagnosed when I was with her.... Some of us never know for sure if their ex was BPD.
Siochana, as we discussed in your July 2014 thread, you should be fully capable of spotting strong occurrences of BPD traits after dating a woman for three years. Indeed, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot strong verbal abuse, anger issues (e.g., her destroying your suits and other clothes), rapid flips between adoring and hating you, and physical abuse (e.g., slapping you hard across the face on two occasions).

 

For the purpose of choosing a compatible mate or deciding whether to remain married to her, it does not really matter whether she has the full-blown disorder (i.e., meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD"). That criteria is set at such a high threshold that it primarily serves only the interests of the courts and insurance companies, who insisted upon a bright line when that threshold was adopted in 1980.

 

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

 

Granted, this "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. Chickenpox, for example, is something a person either "has" or "does not have." This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that with respect to PDs. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, a personality "disorder" simply means "group of behavioral symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

 

Of course, a substantial segment of the psychiatric community has long known that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

 

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies and the courts -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- were pressing for a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover (or institutionalize) and those they would not cover.

 

Consequently, when a person looking for a mate or deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no BUS coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk. Importantly, a person satisfying 75% or 85% of the diagnostic criteria -- and, hence, "not having BPD" -- may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%.

 

I further note that the psychiatric community is still unable to "diagnose" in the way that term is used in all other scientific fields. When a psychologist tells you he has "diagnosed" you as having BPD, he only means that he has determined that your behavioral symptoms are severe and persistent.

 

In every field of the medical sciences, however, "diagnosis" does NOT occur by simply telling you the severity or persistence of your symptoms. On the contrary, the doctor usually relies on YOU to provide that information. This is why the very first thing he will ask you is what symptoms you've been experiencing and how long they have been occurring. Hence, when a medical doctor gives you a diagnosis, he is not describing your symptoms. Rather, he is telling you what CAUSES those symptoms (i.e., name of a disease).

 

For several decades, psychologists tried to diagnose in that manner -- i.e., tried to identify the underlying causes of behavioral symptoms. Sadly, the result was an unmitigated disaster. It was so bad that a client seeing three different psychologists likely would be given three different diagnoses. During the 1970s, the field of psychology had become such a joke to the scientific community that the American Psychiatric Association members decided to stop trying to diagnose mental disorders in the same way that medical doctors diagnose diseases.

 

Hence, in 1980, the APA stopped trying to identify the causes of the behavioral symptoms. Instead, it adopted a new approach (DSM-III) in which it identifies only the symptoms themselves. The irony, of course, is that the APA decided to use the term "diagnosis" to describe this process of rating the severity of symptoms. Never mind that nobody has yet been able to prove, to a certainty, what it is that CAUSES personality disorders. Although there are some good theories and empirical evidence, it is yet unproven as to why BPD and other PDs occur in some abused children but not in others.

 

Unfortunately, this misuse of the term "diagnosis" has confused a substantial share of the lay public. Many laymen fear that, if they start speaking of behavioral symptoms in an educated manner, people will think they are trying to do an "armchair diagnosis." They don't realize that the psychiatric community WANTS them to learn how to spot these mental disorders by learning the behavioral symptoms -- i.e., the warning signs -- associated with each disorder. This is why hundreds of mental health institutions describe these behavioral symptoms on their public websites.

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Thanks for that thoughtful and educational post DT. Yes, there is enough to suggest what I was dealing with.

 

Some close friends “get it” and understand how this is different, materially, to a normal breakup in terms of the elongated nature of the healing process especially. Others don’t. That’s okay; I think it falls firmly into the if “you haven’t been through it it’s hard to understand it” camp.

 

I know that she was in another relationship pretty soon after me and I think they are still together.

 

I know it shouldn’t matter but I would be lying if I said that I don’t often wonder how that is going and if he, like me, is subject to the same treatment and if he reacted in a similar (clueless) fashion.

 

Again, I must admit that I would take comfort out of knowing that her next (current) relationship was, well, beset with the same problems arising from her mental problems.

 

But I don’t know and I will likely never know and the fact that she has not contacted me in two years suggests that she never came to realise what had actually happened, the core dynamic.

 

I know no one of that is healthy (forget about her, move on etc) but yeah, honestly, Id love to know. I would like the vindication.

 

I suppose, as well, I havent met anyone since. Someone earlier in the thread put it well: someone who offers all the things you loved about that person without the abuse.

 

Ive been looking for that and I haven't found it. That said, I think its only been the last year that i could be considered ready.

 

That makes me think about what she is doing and whether she is happy and then anger at the thought of her being happy while for much of the last three years I have been anything but.

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BPDter & Passive aggressive are the most difficult experiences to deal with .

 

I am not going to throw theories, advise how to handle such complex situations .

 

I can say only one thing , living with someone with mental illness is so harsh to an extent it makes you ILL.

 

Forget about such people , go live your life ,

run run as fast as you can ; because if you don't , you will mirror her , you will pass through depression , you will wish you escaped when it is not p[ossible anymore....

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Long story short, my BPD girlfriend broke up with me and ghosted me and I haven't heard from her in almost two months. It was very sudden, we were together for a year and a half and had never broken up before but then we had a fight and she impulsively broke up and blocked me on everything.

 

I know I shouldn't be checking her social media and everyone will answer "you need to go NC," and trust me - after today I am realizing that is what is best for me because it's obviously affecting me so much. So I guess I'm posting this just to rant and express how sad I am, get it off my chest, and maybe be surrounded by kindred spirits who understand how hard getting over someone and moving on is.

 

My ex's mother (who is a huge narcissist and I believe has NPD) had a stroke a couple of years ago and my ex took her in. The mother requires full care as she is now paralyzed. Even when I met my girlfriend (a few months after it all went down) she had told me that she was only keeping her mother in her home as long as she could and that she knew someday a nursing home would be the only option. Of course, the mother always threatened to kill herself if ex put her in a nursing home, so my ex felt immense guilt and bent over backwards to make her witch of a mother happy.

 

The mother was a HUGE issue in our relationship. My ex chose her mother over me no matter what and while I realize that her mother came first and had rapidly declining health, it was really hard on me because I felt like I was barely a priority. I stayed because I told myself that someday this will pass, that it's important for me to be there for my ex through this, that she didn't ask for it, and someday we will be mother-free. Of course she didn't let me get that far.

 

I had gingerly told ex numerous times that the time had come for her mom to go into a nursing home. Ex was breaking her own neck, sacrificing her own health, her job, relationship with me, and personal well-being were all suffering while she dedicated her life to keeping her narcissistic, ungrateful, demanding and entitled mother afloat. It was a terrible subject to broach with her because she would become livid, screaming at me that I just wanted her mother gone, that she could never do that to her mom, how dare I suggest such a thing, etc etc etc. When she would calm down she would realize the merit in what I said and would apologize to me, but say she just had to keep trying right now. I always just nodded and sighed.

 

Since our breakup in January, I happened to see that her mother fell and broke her hip (her sister posted this on Facebook). I saw this coming, her mom had continually tried to get out of bed on her own and my ex wouldn't listen that this was time. Anyway, that was about a month ago and I saw today that my ex had a huge ramp built outside her house to accommodate a wheelchair. On the one hand, I'm shaking my head because my ex is such a fool. She is still refusing to believe that her mom is better off in a nursing home and it's becoming far too much for her to do on her own. So in that regard, I say good luck to you, you idiot.

 

But there is a huge part of me that is crushed that she doesn't share this kind of big news with me. For god's sake, I did everything to help care for her mom, from bathing, to feeding, to changing, to wiping **** off of her ass. I knew every one of her mom's 20+ daily pills and what time she needed to take them. I knew she was too posh to drink out of a plastic cup or use plastic cutlery and I knew just how she liked her eggs. I mean I spent months learning to care for her mom just as well as ex did and in a lot of ways, I lived in that house with them. To suddenly be cut off from that, it really hurts. I know down the line I will be grateful, that was a hot mess in and of itself ON TOP OF her being BPD (and not knowing it). But damn, I'm just really sad about it. I tried so hard and did so much and I'm not even respected enough to be allowed the knowledge of all this.

 

Thanks for letting me vent. And I know, I need to stop looking at her stuff. I think I will now.

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Long story short, my BPD girlfriend broke up with me and ghosted me and I haven't heard from her in almost two months. It was very sudden, we were together for a year and a half and had never broken up before but then we had a fight and she impulsively broke up and blocked me on everything.

 

I know I shouldn't be checking her social media and everyone will answer "you need to go NC," and trust me - after today I am realizing that is what is best for me because it's obviously affecting me so much. So I guess I'm posting this just to rant and express how sad I am, get it off my chest, and maybe be surrounded by kindred spirits who understand how hard getting over someone and moving on is.

 

My ex's mother (who is a huge narcissist and I believe has NPD) had a stroke a couple of years ago and my ex took her in. The mother requires full care as she is now paralyzed. Even when I met my girlfriend (a few months after it all went down) she had told me that she was only keeping her mother in her home as long as she could and that she knew someday a nursing home would be the only option. Of course, the mother always threatened to kill herself if ex put her in a nursing home, so my ex felt immense guilt and bent over backwards to make her witch of a mother happy.

 

The mother was a HUGE issue in our relationship. My ex chose her mother over me no matter what and while I realize that her mother came first and had rapidly declining health, it was really hard on me because I felt like I was barely a priority. I stayed because I told myself that someday this will pass, that it's important for me to be there for my ex through this, that she didn't ask for it, and someday we will be mother-free. Of course she didn't let me get that far.

 

I had gingerly told ex numerous times that the time had come for her mom to go into a nursing home. Ex was breaking her own neck, sacrificing her own health, her job, relationship with me, and personal well-being were all suffering while she dedicated her life to keeping her narcissistic, ungrateful, demanding and entitled mother afloat. It was a terrible subject to broach with her because she would become livid, screaming at me that I just wanted her mother gone, that she could never do that to her mom, how dare I suggest such a thing, etc etc etc. When she would calm down she would realize the merit in what I said and would apologize to me, but say she just had to keep trying right now. I always just nodded and sighed.

 

Since our breakup in January, I happened to see that her mother fell and broke her hip (her sister posted this on Facebook). I saw this coming, her mom had continually tried to get out of bed on her own and my ex wouldn't listen that this was time. Anyway, that was about a month ago and I saw today that my ex had a huge ramp built outside her house to accommodate a wheelchair. On the one hand, I'm shaking my head because my ex is such a fool. She is still refusing to believe that her mom is better off in a nursing home and it's becoming far too much for her to do on her own. So in that regard, I say good luck to you, you idiot.

 

But there is a huge part of me that is crushed that she doesn't share this kind of big news with me. For god's sake, I did everything to help care for her mom, from bathing, to feeding, to changing, to wiping **** off of her ass. I knew every one of her mom's 20+ daily pills and what time she needed to take them. I knew she was too posh to drink out of a plastic cup or use plastic cutlery and I knew just how she liked her eggs. I mean I spent months learning to care for her mom just as well as ex did and in a lot of ways, I lived in that house with them. To suddenly be cut off from that, it really hurts. I know down the line I will be grateful, that was a hot mess in and of itself ON TOP OF her being BPD (and not knowing it). But damn, I'm just really sad about it. I tried so hard and did so much and I'm not even respected enough to be allowed the knowledge of all this.

 

Thanks for letting me vent. And I know, I need to stop looking at her stuff. I think I will now.

 

 

Your mistake was pushing your ex to put her mother in a nursing home. You should have just supported her decision to care for he at home if that's what she wanted to do. It's her mother therefore her choice if she wants to care for her.

 

YOU wanted to be free of her mother. She wanted to support and care for her. She cut you off because you tried to force her to put her in a home by bringing up the subject repeatedly. It wasn't your choice or your place to try and talk her into putting her in a home.

 

She's made her choice to cut you off and continue to care for her mother. It's her choice. Just because YOU thought it was best to put her in a nursing home doesn't mean you are right.

 

You simply wanted her mother gone for your own selfish reasons.

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Who diagnosed the BPD and NPD?

 

You?

No, my therapist did after I described how my ex girlfriend was. Then I bought and read I Hate You, Don't Leave Me and Walking on Eggshells and feel pretty confident... you've spoken to me in other threads about this.

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