Rape by deception, and a mess of a man

[Pompom]

In Israel, if someone tells you a HUGE lie about who they are in order to sleep with you, that's a form rape because the consent was given to a lie and would be refused otherwise.

 

So I recently became best buddies with my f*ck buddy's ex and she told me a lot of things, things I believe because I had my own suspicions long before she confirmed them. She's wonderful and I feel horrible about the attitude I had when I was jealous of them.

 

So first there was the dog. I had given him my puppy because I couldn't keep it and he really seemed to be in love with it. Not that much later, the pup ended up at his ex's, though it sounded temporary. And it was, because it turns out he had gotten the dog for her all along, yet he's the kind of person who takes presents back after a breakup. Dumped it with his horrified mother who neglected it to the point it nearly died, and the ex took it back and saved its life. That was not the only way he hurt the dog I had given to him in exchange for the promise of safety and love.

 

After the breakup, he was suicidal and may still be. He has alienated most of his entourage, even quit his job after screaming at every single coworker and crying at his post. She tells me I'm likely his closest person right now. I've been through such times, and it breaks my heart to know that he may be going through this. Now, he's a mess, but I can't say he's a bad person. Just extremely touchy and jealous and with obsessive tendencies. But also cuddly, and gives all he has to the right woman, even taking lots of abuse.

But yeah, so I was his long-time flirt and then rebound girl at first, but recently I decided to contact him after his ex had encouraged me to try and "save him" because she believes I could be that person. I still think about him a lot and fondly. And being someone with "a past", I can deal with a lot of "weird" and dismiss some amount of abuse. I can put up with a lot as long as I know who I have in front of me and where I stand.

 

So I've been with him 3 times, twice back then, and once a week ago, and we got along great, we have so much in common and when last week, I offered staying at his place the next day to be there when he comes home from work, he beamed like a happy baby. If he weren't becoming a recluse, and if I weren't so guarded (he keeps pointing it out), we could probably get somewhere. We have a similar outlook too.

So it's difficult - but not pain no gain, so what could possibly go wrong?

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHA! As she shows me around her town, his ex drops a bomb shell on me that has me stop dead in my tracks, gape and go dizzy. Let's say his name everyone knows him with, is Moshe, and he lives a (secular) Jew's life... Now - everybody lies. But the extent of a lie kind of does matter to me.

 

Moshe the Jew is really Mussah the Muslim. He has deceived all women he dated. I had come to Israel with the resolution to only hook up with Jews. I wanted to live the (Reform) Jewish life. I had been the rebellious hunter of the special and the different for too long; the time had come to settle down and appreciate being among my people, my culture, my religion. To share such an important but basic common ground as being fellow Jews in Israel.

Now, I forgive him, because he DID almost die for the Jewish people, he IS willing to convert for the right woman, he DOES observe Jewish and not Muslim holidays, and he IS a Zionist. He tries so hard and so sincerely. So I have no problem with him being a Muslim on paper now that I already have feelings for him. But he is what I would not have slept with if I'd known.

I can see why he'd lie given the reputation Islam has made for itself, especially among Jews, but don't I have a right to know who I sleep with and pick my partners based no such intel? You'll tell me that, as a former working girl, I should be used to lying and being lied to, but he was not some stranger I wanted gone after ejaculation. He tried to get to know me and I let him, and vice-versa, so this was entirely different from hooking.

 

Meh...

[january2011]

I consider that rape refers to when someone is forced to engage in sexual activity under duress and/or without their consent.

 

He lied to you and misrepresented himself. I do sympathise with you that you were misled. However, you still consented to have sex with him as a willing sexual partner. Granted, I'm not familiar with the legal system in Israel or Judaism, however, as far as I know, that's not rape.

 

And yes, I agree, what a mess of a man.

 

Your post also contains a lot of extraneous detail. Not quite sure whether there's a question in there, you're looking for advice, you're just venting, or all of the above.

[KathyM]

Rape by deception? In all fairness, as I recall you lied to him about your past as well, and misrepresented yourself to him, not disclosing your history of hooking when you knew that information would be important to him. Maybe you came clean to him later on, but can you really expect total honesty from him when you haven't been honest with him? Your relationship started off on the wrong foot from the start, and it's pretty hard to get it on the right track when so much dishonesty has transpired. If you're serious about embracing the Jewish faith, then I suggest you start by embracing its teachings, its practices, and its principles, and start living a life that is in accordance with that. Otherwise, it's just talk with no action, and what good is that? I would suggest you let this guy go. Too much negative crap has transpired with the dishonesty on both of your parts, and if he is of a faith that is so incompatible with yours, then I don't see any point in trying to make this relationship work.

[Pompom]

Your post also contains a lot of extraneous detail. Not quite sure whether there's a question in there, you're looking for advice, you're just venting, or all of the above.

Meh.. just venting I guess.

Of course it's not real "rape". But it's still freaking creepy and wrong.

 

In all fairness, as I recall you lied to him about your past as well, and misrepresented yourself to him, not disclosing your history of hooking when you knew that information would be important to him.

No, I didn't. He knew my real name and he knew I had a lot of sex with strangers before him. And I could NOT have known that info would have been important to him, because a) he screws all that moves, b) he never asked, and c) HE knew that I was Jews-only whereas he is not one of those "I get to sleep around but she doesn't" types.

I kept a secret of the past he didn't ask about, just as to what age I wet the bed or how I scored in school, whereas he pretended to be someone else entirely in the present. My secret doesn't affect him; his does me because I betrayed the Land of Zion without knowing. He has no problem with sluts on the other hand so he betrayed nothing by being with an EX-hooker. Oh here's the point: EX-hooker, whereas NOT ex-MUSLIM! Still-Muslim! And he's friends with lots of escorts, so...

 

can you really expect total honesty from him when you haven't been honest with him?

I never complained about secrets, I complained about a MUSLIM pretending to be a JEW and even adopting a typically JEWISH fake name! He didn't not tell me he was a Muslim. He told me he was Jewish. There's a difference. I would have been similarly dishonest had I said I never hooked or otherwise slept around.

 

If you're serious about embracing the Jewish faith, then I suggest you start by embracing its teachings, its practices, and its principles, and start living a life that is in accordance with that

You apparently haven't heard about secular Judaism that is purely cultural and does not dictate living by idiotic laws such as the 613 Mitzvahs or not groping your own partner. I am Jewish, but I am not religious. Since my family is one of Jews, however, I am still more of a Jew than a Muslim can ever be until he converts.

It's no different than being "Christian" when the only Christian thing you do anymore, is mention Jesus on Christmas. And it would be pretty damned weird for that Christian, no matter how or if they practice, to claim to be a Muslim. So even when you're not practicing YOUR religion-on-paper, you are still more of that than something else you CLAIM to be because you want to get LAID, because that damned piece of paper is still an official document that overrides words.

 

with the dishonesty on both of your parts

Not telling someone my entire biography, is not dishonest. If I'd lied when he'd asked specifically, then it would be. He does also have a huge lot of past partners which makes his situation little different from mine, but do I feel lied to just because he doesn't sit me down and tells me how many exactly and when and how? Everyone gets to have secrets as long as they don't hurt anyone; deliberately lying about essential stuff is another thing entirely.

 

and if he is of a faith that is so incompatible with yours,

Again - you can be Muslim/Jew/Christian but not practicing or believing; he wipes his butt with the Quran as I do with all the "holy" books. Religion plays no part in either our daily lives.

However, I cannot marry a gentile. It's legally impossible, and it would break with my family tradition of (secular) Jews. I would mingle two worlds, two cultures, no matter how observant either of us is or is not. I don't want any mingling.

It would mean no brit milah, no bar mitzvah, no obligatory military service for our children. You seem unfamiliar with Israel's approach to Judaism. You can be anything you want here religiously, but if you are not of at least one Jewish parent, preferably mother, you cannot marry here or be laid to rest on a Jewish graveyard. You are an outcast. Observance plays no part in this, it's all about burocracy. This is a state that doesn't care for non-Jews, so I ain't raising any. But while I, too, am only of one Jewish parent, he is of 2 gentile parents. With the proper contacts, exceptions or quickie conversions could be made for me, but not for him. He would have to go through the hell of a full Orthodox conversion first.

[sally4sara]

We are all aware that people are capable of lying. It is our responsibility to learn what we need to know to feel comfortable enough to engage in physical intimacies before we engage in them. If we don't, we own part of the aftermath.

 

Even suggesting you were raped by this guy is appalling. What he did was absolutely disgenuine. It was wrong. But it was not rape.

[Pompom]

Not my choice of words. "Rape by deception" is the common term used for this situation, and I won't sit down and ponder about how to rename it.

 

As for learning stuff about people before sleeping with them, well, there are things that are just safe to assume to be true. When someone introduces themselves as Moshe the Jew, why should I question this when nothing about them suggests otherwise - in Jewland? Everyone here is likely Jewish unless they look suspiciously like they're from a country where Judaism is not a major religion, such as Asians or African Americans, but having black curly hair and a big nose, and a typically Jewish name, makes "I'm Moshe the Jew" credible enough. I mean, how many sane people question the most basic things someone introduces themselves with? Questioning and investigating things like name and religion before any suspicious behavior arises, would be paranoid.

[denise_xo]

Not my choice of words. "Rape by deception" is the common term used for this situation, and I won't sit down and ponder about how to rename it.

 

As for learning stuff about people before sleeping with them, well, there are things that are just safe to assume to be true. When someone introduces themselves as Moshe the Jew, why should I question this when nothing about them suggests otherwise - in Jewland? Everyone here is likely Jewish unless they look suspiciously like they're from a country where Judaism is not a major religion, such as Asians or African Americans, but having black curly hair and a big nose, and a typically Jewish name, makes "I'm Moshe the Jew" credible enough. I mean, how many sane people question the most basic things someone introduces themselves with? Questioning and investigating things like name and religion before any suspicious behavior arises, would be paranoid.

 

Actually, about 20% of the population in Israel are Arab Muslims... and it's pretty impossible to distinguish a Muslim from a Jew based on physical features only.

[january2011]

It might be a common term used, but in itself is not that common. Israel, perhaps, but not the US:

 

CrimLaw

 

On “Rape by Deception”

 

Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew | World news | The Guardian

 

Rape by deception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

As the Wikipedia article mentions, the charge of rape by deception was as a result of a plea bargain and violent rape had actually occurred.

 

I suggest that you contact your local law enforcement to file charges against this man. And also seek counselling services to help you to come to terms with what happened to you.

Edited September 12, 2012 by january2011

[Pompom]

Actually, about 20% of the population in Israel are Arab Muslims... and it's pretty impossible to distinguish a Muslim from a Jew based on physical features only.

 

20% is a sad minority. And Arabs have adopted a fashion culture that usually does allow for distinction. Many "young" Arab men shave the sides of their heads to let the hair on top grow, and wear polo shirts in flashy colors or often with horizontal stripes. There is a lot of typically Arab fashion and styles going on, that Jews would run away from screaming and flailing.

Plus, Muslims rarely serve in elite combat units when they serve at all, and this one did. He drinks alcohol and behaves, talks etc. like a typical Israeli (we have our own body language) and listens to the most Israeli of Israeli music; all his "personal culture" is Israeli. I just talked to his ex again and she explained that he hates, despises, loathes, Islam and his fellow Muslims, so his deception wasn't even that much of one as he hates Islam as much as any Zionist that I know. This guy is a Muslim who doesn't want to be one.

 

I suggest that you contact your local law enforcement to file charges against this man. And also seek counselling services to help you to come to terms with what happened to you.

Thank you, but I forgive him. I was extremely upset and shocked and kind of disgusted, and there's still residue of that, but when I'm completely honest, I don't feel anger or hurt anymore when I think about it. It was just a huge bomb to drop on me. You can probably tell by my avatar how very not amused I was/am.

 

He lied, and he is what I swore myself to never sleep with again (I did as a working girl, and it was hilarious to see them the next day with prayer bumps on their foreheads for having sinned with moi - that must have hurt!). He lied to me about something that is a huge thing in this country, and to me. I know Jewish girls from secular families who would not date Arabs, much less Muslims, because even with religious observance out of the picture, they fear being shunned or even harmed by their families. When you're Jewish in Israel, no matter how secular, dating an Arab makes you trash in many social circles. But while I'm a purist myself that way in that I simply don't date Arabs - but I respect them as my fellow man - the extent to which some take this, disgusts me.

 

But this man is basically a good man. He would convert to Judaism for the right woman. He hates the religion on his birth certificate (or wherever) and has almost died defending us Jews against Islamic onslaught.

I was and am still upset about the lie and about having been tricked into sleeping (and falling in love) with the very kind of person I was so fed up with in Europe. But the thing is, he agrees with me on Islam and if he lies, it's because his fear of rejection for his roots is justified. He didn't choose to be born to Muslim parents, but he did choose to live like a Jew, he observes our holidays, he barks abuse at the TV when an item on Islamization is on.

He is more of a Zionist than some Jews here.

 

This deceit has made me realize something else though, aside from this Muslim being a better Israeli than some Jews.

Yes, I want Israel to the Jews but do I want to be one of those Jews who are being just as Nazi-esque on all non-Jews as the Nazis were on us? So we don't murder gentiles, but we give them ****ty jobs, some shun our daughters for dating them and others get away with spray-painting "Death to Arabs" on walls. Do I want to encourage that? And isn't that attitude what makes Israel look like an apartheit state? When good people who work hard and give their all to this state, feel compelled to conceal that they are Arabs, doesn't that say more about us Jews than it does about those Arabs? And do I want to be part of that?

The answer is, no. I would never knowingly date a Muslim or an Arab because while I don't hate them, I prefer my own "world", but now I did happen to fall for this guy. I had a great time every second I shared with him. Finding out afterwards that Moshe is Mussah, does not change that. The deceit is just creepy in itself. I'm okay now and I hope he'll find an entourage where he can be whatever he feels he is.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Pompom

[BetheButterfly]

We are all aware that people are capable of lying. It is our responsibility to learn what we need to know to feel comfortable enough to engage in physical intimacies before we engage in them. If we don't, we own part of the aftermath.

 

Even suggesting you were raped by this guy is appalling. What he did was absolutely disgenuine. It was wrong. But it was not rape.

 

I think lying in order to have sex with someone can be a sexual misdemeanor because if the person had known the truth, that person would not have decided to have sex with the liar.

 

To me it is a good question if rape = having sex with a liar who you would not have sex with if you knew the truth about that person. Probably it needs another name though. It certainly isn't right. It's like how a guy pretends he wants a relationship with a girl yet just wants to have sex with her, so he leads her on(deceives her) and she has sex with him and later finds out it was all a lie. This sad to say happens a lot.

 

Should lying for sex be a misdemeanor?

[Pompom]

I think it depends on the magnitude of the lie. If a boyfriend promises to take out the garbage once they had sex, and he then says "Ha ha!" and goes to sleep, that's one thing. But jeopardizing a person's social standing or even physical safety by creating an entire fake identity in order to get laid, now that......

 

Actually, this same man is now blackmailing and hazing his ex by revealing this same secret to other people, people who he knows may seriously harm her when they find out. Needless to say, while I was willing to forgive a lot, this degree of conniving, evil and insanity leaves me very disinterested in dating him anymore.