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My wife is leaving after thirty years I thought were happy. How to cope?


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I'm trying (but failing) to understand what has happened to my 30-year marriage.

 

Last autumn - more than a year ago now - our nest finally emptied, and our son and daughter were finally launched happily into the world. They are super kids, loving and well-adjusted. We live in a big house, by far our biggest asset. So I began to get quite excited about what we might do next. Probably, I thought, we'd sell up. That would leave us with a good sum of money, and we could choose whatever we liked from a huge menu of possibilities. We were set - I thought - for a wonderful "third age." Though I was then 70 and P was 59, we are exceptionally young for our age; most people put us about 10-15 years younger, and we're both full of energy.

 

In November, a stroke of luck. Before we'd even decided to put the house on the market a young couple contacted us, saying they were interested in buying but were in no hurry. That seemed perfect. I told them that we weren't certain that we were selling, but they had first refusal.

 

Early in December, I said to P that we really ought to give them an answer - it was unfair to keep them hanging on. She agreed, but said it would be better to talk after Christmas (which was going to be very busy with family and friends.) That was fine by me.

 

Then, towards the end of January, we were having lunch when P suddenly said. "I've been thinking about the house. I think we should sell, and then split up" I haven't recovered since.

 

I - and most people we know - regarded us as a near-perfect couple. We were both mature adults when we met, with a lot of experience under our belts, and happy with our single states. But we were both surprised by the strength of our feelings.

 

Obviously we had ups and downs. But only a year earlier we'd had one of the biggest ups of our entire life together. After a big row we'd made up in the best way possible, and our mutual passion was rekindled in the most extraordinary way. In effect, we found ourselves in a second honeymoon that lasted for months. And, of course, that spilt into the rest of our relationship. We were very close. I regarded myself as one of the luckiest men alive. .

 

P continued to live with me until a few weeks ago, though in the autumn she began to sleep in a spare room on alternate nights. Once I'd got over the tears and desperation of the original shock, we took up much of our old life again - going out together, entertaining friends, an so on. The only thing missing was sex - otherwise P was often very affectionate again, though she insisted she had no deep feelings for me.

 

We went to Relate counselling for several weeks, but I never felt we'd got anywhere near the root of our problem. Indeed, I still haven't begun to understand P's decision, nor why - as she has told me - she was developing the idea for months before she told me, but waited until she was sure it was irrevocable.

 

Nobody else is involved. I haven't become abusive, or smelly, or senile. All P will say is things like "I have to see if I can make it on my own." I feel that I must have done something, or failed to do something, important. But P says no. Quite the opposite, in fact - she says I've given her a wonderful life and wonderful children. Her only major complaint is that I "cossetted" her.

 

For the time being, P is house and cat-sitting for a friend who's in India. But she spends much time here - usually each weekend, and sometime midweek nights as well. Those times are very, very good for me. I love her profoundly and passionately, and - to be honest - I only come properly to life when she's around. The rest of the time I'm just counting days until she's here again.

 

The original house sale fell through, as did two more near misses. Now we are close to another deal. Financially, the split will be disastrous for both of us; with pooled resources, we would have been more than comfortable. But divided, our standard of living will collapse. Previously, I would have dealt with this by hunting down more work. But that's getting more difficult, partly because of ageism among the sort of people who used to commission me.

 

And P is having to work her socks off to scrape a living. When she arrived last weekend she looked tired and depressed, and I later heard that though she had thoroughly enjoyed our family Christmas she'd fallen into depression in the following few days, telling a friend she felt she'd lost her children and her home. I, meanwhile, sometimes feel I've been suckered for thirty years, sometimes as if our whole relationship has been a sham, or a dream.

 

I'm a very self-sufficient person, as is P, and I don't have any problems with the mechanics of living alone. But this woman is - as she always has been - my soulmate. We have become so intertwined over our years together that (for me) life without her is inconceivable, literally.

 

Has anybody else been through anything like this? What did you do?

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Gosh, I'm sorry you're going through all this. It almost sounds as if she doesn't want a total break from you, but does want you to know that she feels the relationship has changed. Is it possible she wants to make that as clear to you as she possibly can, but will still want to remain a married couple? She might feel that if she didn't drive home this point, you might feel the need to 'romance' her, and she no longer wants that or feels that way about you, for whatever reason. Obviously she still feels good about the relationship, comfortable enough to want to spend time with you in the company of friends, and she's there with you many times a week, in your home. When a woman really wants shed of a man, she just goes, gets an apartment or moves in with a friend, I would think.

 

I don't know, maybe she's just going through a hard emotional time, with some changes in her life. The kids now are gone, the selling of the house, that might have been something she didn't want to do? If a person is passive, they can remain silent for many years about things they've struggled with, emotionally. I don't know what her personality is like, but maybe there have been many things over the years, concerns, fears, things she did want, things she didn't want, things she never spoke about, and things you just assumed she was okay with. Yes? No?

 

God Bless,

I will be praying this all works out for you.

suegail

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Thanks for your sympathy and interest, Suegail. You've got to the heart of the problem very quickly - you're obviously a very perceptive sort of person.

 

> I don't know, maybe she's just going through a hard

> emotional time, with some changes in her life. The kids

> now are gone, the selling of the house, that might have

> been something she didn't want to do?

 

That's near the mark, I think. The year 2003 brought a lot of changes for both of us - daughter moving out (son had already gone), me working more and more from home, possibility of selling up &c, P managing to earn her living for almost the first time in our married life. For me, all this represented opportunities - I knew, for instance, P would have liked to travel more. Here was our chance. (And I should add here that unlike many couples, we always grew closer when on holiday - we never tired of each other's company). I can remember walking home after work one sunny evening that year thinking how amazingly lucky I was - going home from a job I loved to a cherished house and a wife I loved and maybe good sex, and all this at an age when many people seem to have almost stopped living.

 

The kids - yes, they no longer live in this house. But they've both spent most of the last five-six years at uni and so on. But we see them often (P more than me) and they're only a short distance away. They're hardly out of our life.The house - it occurred to me soon after the bombshell that it was part of the problem, and I worked out a way in which we could have stayed here. "Would you like that?" I asked P. "Oh yes" she said, with great feeling. But that, somehow, got buried as time went on.

 

> If a person is passive, they can remain silent for many

> years about things they've struggled with, emotionally.

 

Something like that seems to have been going on, though I certainly wouldn't regard P as passive. From my point of view, the problem is that I don't know what these things were. And I need to understand before I can contemplate moving on.

 

> I don't know what her personality is like, but maybe

> there have been many things over the years, concerns,

> fears, things she did want, things she didn't want,

> things she never spoke about, and things you just assumed

> she was okay with.

 

I'm sure that's the $64 question. And - at a pinch - I can understand why she might have chosen not to tell me at the time. But why not now? If it's really over, I need to know why. And I know that P is far from happy, yet (ostensibly) she's making the break to start some kind of new life. I can imagine that being scary, mixed with relief and excitement. Instead, friends tell me she's very "down."

 

You asked about her personality &c. Here's a quick, superficial portrait. She had a dreadful loveless childhood. Her parents made it clear that "she would never amount to anything", that she was plain, that they didn't like her much, and so on. They packed her off to boarding school at eight (eight!) When she finally left school, she left home almost as soon as she could. From the age of 17 or thereabouts she worked as an actress, first here and later in Australia. She was wildly promiscuous, had a few relationships that lasted a few months, but never even lived with anybody, let alone contemplated marriage. That period lasted something like fourteen years. It certainly proved, I would have thought, that she could make it on her own if she wanted to.

 

When we met, she was in the process of giving up acting (she would say "failing") and trying to make it as a TV and stage writer. She is very talented (as well as beautiful).

 

We've had problems, of course. Who hasn't? But communication between us has always been open (at least, I thought so). The one recurring difficulty comes from P's low self-esteem; sometimes it almost seemed to me that she preferred to fail at the last hurdle, rather than succeed. She would sink into deep depressions saying things such as "It's shameful that a woman of my age can't make her own living."

 

I would say (jokingly but truthfully) that I was convinced she would make it in a big way sooner or later, and that I would then be delighted to put my feet up and live on her royalties. But it ate into her - she once sacked our £18-a-week cleaner at a time when I was earning more than £60,000 a year because, she said, "I can't afford her"

 

At the same time, I was very supportive of her efforts. Four years ago, for instance, she started a business that is now growing well, and is her main source of income. I played a big part in helping her get it going, and saw it as "our" business but with P as boss. I feel hurt watching it do well, yet being excluded from it; P, as I said, is working far too hard, and there are many menial tasks I could help with without compromising her "ownership"

 

It also hurts to watch her finally making a living, more or less, but choosing to do it away from me. This is what I always wanted for her, partly because it seemed to be at the root of any problems we had. She resented (and I entirely understood) her feeling of dependence on me. The fact was that I was just as dependent on her (though not financially) , but that didn't seem to register.

 

Sorry if I'm boring you. But when P isn't here (I took her to her friend's house last night, just before posting) I spend most of the time wrestling with my lack of understanding. That's in between longing for her, of course. Last night's goodnight kiss was far too sexy for comfort, and just rekindles my confusion.

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Well, it doesn't sound to me as if the relationship is over, by a long shot. If I were done with a guy, I wouldn't offer him a 'sexy kiss.' I don't know, I just think she needs some time to sort out her feelings, and it seems as if she isn't giving you the whole scoop on things, so you're left wondering, but it is good that you're entirely willing to try and understand what the problems are.

 

Maybe she feels you've been slightly possessive, and she just does want to feel she is an independant woman who could, if she had to, stand on her own two feet.

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wow, thirty years together and now she wants to see "if she can make it on her own"? sounds like her mortality talking to her. she's in her late 50s, has had you helping and taking care of her for a long time, now, no little ones around and you're obviously self sufficient. personally, you should tell her to stick around for convenience sake if nothing else. why would she want to barely squeak by when she can stay with you and you both be fairly comfortable.

 

have you BOTH tried counselling? couldn't hurt. maybe she'll tell the counselor something she won't or hasn't told you.

 

good luck to you both. the world needs more longer lasting marriages. i always figured after the first ten, it got easier, but then i divorced after my tenth year.

 

ciao

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Thanks for taking an interest.

 

> wow, thirty years together and now she wants to

> see "if she can make it on her own"? sounds like her

> mortality talking to her.

 

Possible, but I don't think so. If it were, I think she would have said something to that effect. And though I wouldn't have liked it, I think I could have accepted it.

 

> she's in her late 50s, has had you helping and taking

> care of her for a long time, now, no little ones around

 

It's a long time since they were little! They're in their mid-twenties now.

 

> and you're obviously self sufficient. personally, you should

> tell her to stick around for convenience sake if nothing

> else. why would she want to barely squeak by when she

> can stay with you and you both be fairly comfortable.

 

That's one of the things that hurts, a lot. P seems to be abandoning me for - well, what? We always lived very independent lives. She has a lot of ambitions, or at least hopes, that I supported strongly. There were also things she loved doing (running a Children's Musical Theatre, for instance) that produced little or no money. She'll have to abandon those, because all her time will be taken making a living.

 

In my dark moments, it seems to me that I must have done (or not done) something terribly important to make such an exchange worthwhile. But P insists not.

 

> have you BOTH tried counselling?

 

Yup. But after six weeks or so a summer break came up, and it didn't seem to be getting anywhere. So we packed it in. If anything, we spoke more frankly outside the counsellor's office than inside it.

 

> good luck to you both.

 

Thanks.

 

> the world needs more longer lasting marriages.

 

Well, this one put the average up. It's my sort-of third. First one, we were both far too young and it just kind of fizzled out after about seven years. We divorced amicably, and remain friends almost 50 years on. Second one was never solemnized - under UK tax rules at the time it would have cost us much money. It was almost entirtely based on sex, and when the passion began to die so did the "marriage" That was another seven years or so. So I make my average so far 14.3 years!

 

> but then i divorced after my tenth year.

 

Nobody else turned up yet?

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yeah, someone else turned up. she's been separated from her husband for almost 5 years now, she's unsure about marrying again. according to her, she thinks things will change if we get married. fine with me, although now i think i know how women feel about getting a commitment.

 

back to you though, wow, turns out you did go to counselling and still to no avail. i do really feel terrible for you. the only other thing we men can do is blame it on the mental instability of 99.9% of women in the world today. (i'm just kidding, obviously, but i'll guarantee i'm gonna catch flak for that one)

 

one thing to keep in mind is this. you can agree with her, and let her off the hook so to speak, she may try her independence out for a while just to prove she can and decide life is better with you, than without. what's the old bs poem.

 

if you love someone, set them free

if they come back to you, it's meant to be

if they don't return, they were never for you.

 

something like that. just out of curiousity, do you think she may have another person on the side? i don't want to point fingers, but you never know.

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> Well, it doesn't sound to me as if the relationship is over, by a long shot.

 

Nor to me. But it is. At least, I daren't think otherwise.

 

> but it is good that you're entirely willing to try and understand what the problems are.

 

Not so much "willing" as "desperate." As it stands, my life has stalled. Unhealthily, I'm living from one meeting to the next; the bits in between just feel like killing time. If I knew the real problem, I might either recognise it as something I couldn't do anything about (like falling for someone else, for instance) or something I could (like a wish to live in another country.) What's so difficult to come to terms with is that P formed the idea of leaving me, nursed it for many months, and then delivered her bombshell - all without giving me a chance to discuss or negotiate it. When I asked why, she said "You might have talked me out of it."

 

> Maybe she feels you've been slightly possessive,

 

All things are possible, of course. But I don't think that can be true. She has many friends (male, female and gay) beyond our mutual circle, and I'm more than happy about that. She's done many independent things, too - three years ago, for instance, she took off with a cousin for a two-month grand tour that included driving the length of California, visiting friends in New Zealand (including an old boyfriend), staying with an old friend in Perth, Western Australia, and a camping expedition in the Queensland rain forest. I can't be possessive if I was happy about that - or can I? I thought we cherished each other's independence.

 

> who could, if she had to, stand on her own two feet.

 

Again, it's possible. But she's been there, done that - for fourteen years before we met. And if she does doubt it, she's the only one who does. All her friends regard her as very capable and competent. As do I.

 

You strike me as a very wise and perceptive lady, by the way. I guess from the time you tend to post you're up in the northwest somewhere - Seattle, maybe? I've spent some very good times there.

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> one thing to keep in mind is this. you can agree with her,

> and let her off the hook so to speak,

 

That's more or less whjat I'm doing - not as a kind of styrategy, but because I can't think of anyything else.

 

> if you love someone, set them free

> if they come back to you, it's meant to be

> if they don't return, they were never for you.

 

has always seemed to be true to me. And we've always lived that way. We've always been very conscious of each other's freedom.

 

> just out of curiousity, do you think she may have another

> person on the side? i don't want to point fingers, but

> you never know.

 

For sure not. She knows that (perversely) it would be easier for me if she had - I wouldn't like it, for sure, but I would understand. There's not much you can do about emotions. (She wouldn't have time, anyway - this week she's working 10 am - 10pm every day, except one evening (when she'll be coming here).

 

How's Baltimore? Our son spent his middle university year in Maryland (College Park) and we got to know Baltimore airport very well! We spent a few days in the town, wandered down to Annapolis, and took a few trips around Chesapeake Bay.

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Baltimore and its' surrounding areas are as always, attractive to strangers and unloved by the natives. I'm originally from Delaware and moved here about 5 years ago. I actually live in the Northeast region of Maryland, but since no one's ever heard of Elkton, I just say Baltimore and that I'm located approximately 50 miles north.

 

Again, my condolensces on the loss of love in your life. Sometimes it hurts even more than losing a loved one to death, because we know we can't conquer death, but when it comes to someone losing their love for us, we're devastated. Constantly asking ourselves (and others) what did I do wrong? What didn't I do for her?

 

Questions like that never seem to have answers. Sometimes we must simply sit and let the parade pass us by as we heal, and jump on the bandwagon again, when we can.

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Well, it seems to me, after having read your posts, that there is a great deal she isn't talking to you about. I would say you have a right to know where you stand. It sounds as if you're seeing her several times a week, but are left wondering as to her state of mind - - sort of going through mutual friends to try and know what it is. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected, but it sounded that way to me.

 

She's made some kind of a decision here, a devestating one for you, and as the man who has stood by her for 30 years, she owes you more than this, I would think - - if nothing else, she owes you some honesty here. There shouldn't be these guessing games. If I were you, I would tell her I want those cards on the table. I would want to know what has caused this, what I could do, if anything, to change the way the other person is feeling, and if it all seems impossible to her, why? Is there someone else? Does she have plans of finding someone else? What's the story here?

 

It just doesn't seem at all fair to you that you don't have some answers by now.

 

If she continues to be evasive, yet wants a separation and divorce, what can you do, my friend? Write it down and put it in your God Box - - I believe that some problems you can work out, and some problems are out of your hands, and are problems you must give to God.

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> She's made some kind of a decision here . . . .

> . . . if nothing else, she owes you some

> honesty here.

 

I've never had the feeling that she is being less than honest with me, except in the months leading up to her decision.. P insists that there is nothing more or less to this than meets the eye: that she "doesn't want to be with me any more" because she "no longer has strong feelings for me."

 

> There shouldn't be these guessing games.

 

You're not kidding! That's where my desperation comes from. I've almost given up trying to understand, and just get on with life and hope.

 

> If I were you, I would tell her I want those cards

> on the table.

 

She insists they all are.

 

> I would want to know what has caused this,

> what I could do, if anything, to change the way

> the other person is feeling, and if it all seems

> impossible to her, why? Is there someone else?

> Does she have plans of finding someone else?

> What's the story here?

 

I've asked such things time and time again, to the point at which I felt forced to stop because the pressure was making P as desperate as me. Her answers, roughly, are: there is no cause; there is nothing I can do; it doesn't seem impossible, she just doesn't want to live with me; there is noone else (in the sense you mean); as far as I know she's not planning to go looking for someone.

 

> If she continues to be evasive

 

She's not at all evasive - she insists I know everything there is to be known, and seems baffled that I don't understand.

 

> yet wants a separation and divorce,

 

No question of divorce (at the moment, anyway). When I suggested it a few months ago (when it all seemed hopeless) P brushed the idea aside.

 

If I'm totally honest with myself, I believe she will come back. She was here again last night, and as always everything falls back into our long-established intimacy (bar sex). We talk our heads off, laugh, argue - if you could have been a ghost at the breakfast table this morning, you would have thought "This is a secure, happy couple."

 

Yet - she left, saying "See you Saturday or Sunday" So I daren't think of her coming back to me. I don't think I could bear another disappointment.

 

> what can you do, my friend? Write it down and put it in your God Box

 

Well, thanks for your concern. Don't have one of those, though - I'm not anti-religious, but I'm a convinced agnostic (if there can be such a thing).

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I think she needs to see that you are passionate about something other than her. Not something small, but something BIG - you say that you are both energetic people. Maybe she needs to truly know if you are as strong as her, so that is she ever really flounders, you will be there for her as a rock and not as a people pleaser (coquetting her).

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Thanks for taking an interest, ollydolly.

 

What you say is important. But - in P's words a few months ago, when I was trying to understand - she said "You're the most passionate man I've ever known, in and out of bed, and about so many things"

 

I don't see myself that way, in fact. And I'm not sure if I like the idea of being passionate about many things, anyway - I'm not sure it's possible.

 

The "cossetting" thing (I think that's what you meant) is odd. I don't think it means quite what it appears to. It's more like this, I think: for most of our married life, I've overwhelmingly been the breadwinner. The things P excels in, and loves doing, don't make money and sometimes lose it. Every now and then, P - in a fit of despair - would go off and do a "proper" job. She always had my full support, though privately I felt it a pity that it ate into the time she had for more productive things - writing, in particular, and developing the Children's Musical Theatre of London.

 

By "cossetting", I think she meant that she never felt forced to earn her own living. If so, I plead guilty. But I certainly never stood in P's way.

 

In any case, it's now become an in-joke. When P came home last night, fairly late, I had some food ready. As I served it, I apologised for the cossetting. "Suits me" she said.

 

 

 

.

 

cost it. . -

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Hi Nuts

In that case, it sounds as though her own self-esteem depends upon her mastering something which benefits her in a productive way. I know what that feels like after living dependently and then not.

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brokenbuthopeful

Hi Nuts!

 

Having just read this thread, one thought jumped out at me. Perhaps your wife is concerned for your mortality and feels the need to prove now, while she has you as a safety net to catch her, that she can make it on her own? Maybe she is scared of being too dependent on you, of being lost and alone and unable to make her own way when (God forbid) your day comes?

 

Just a thought.

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Thanks for your interest. Much appreciated.

 

Yes, that's a thought that's occurred to me, too, and it's certainly possible. Not that it's any great comfort to me, of course.

 

On the other hand it's the sort of thing we would have been able to talk about, I think. And if not, I would have expected to have picked something up through mutual friends, most of whom seem as baffled as I am. (Interesting to observe how peoples' well-meaning help is coloured by their own life-experiences, BTW)

 

The big thing against that idea, of course, is that (objectively) P has never been dependent on me except in the relatively unimportant financial sense (and even that was a matter of choice). And when I do pop my clogs.she'll be comfortably off, financially.

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i know that this one won't help you at all but I have a question:

 

throughout those years, who made the money? Did your wife work?

 

I always find it so unfair when women marry a good man who - thanks to a good degree, willpower, hard work - supports a family and makes a successful family possible. The woman will enjoy 30 years of comfort zone, taking the kids to school in the posh car (which she could have NEVER afforded hadn't it been for the husband's money), holidays, jewellery, piano classes (or whatever is her latest idea)

 

And then after already living a very comfortable life (way more comfortable than would be realistic for her amount of skills and diligence), she gets half the money and the poor guy ends up with the same amount as her but probably with a heart attack in spe as he worked so hard.

 

I am not saying this is the case for you!!!!! Your wife may have made all the money or inherited a lot.

 

and maybe I'm not making any sense but i would be pissed off if I was a guy!

 

Because: let's face it: it is tough to raise kids bla bla. But it is much tougher to get up every at seven for forty years, go to work, work under pressure and most of all pay the bills, mortgage and the braces for the kids!

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Originally posted by lilian

 

 

> throughout those years, who made the money?

 

This is at the heart of the problem, I think.

 

When we met, P was an actress becoming a writer. (It was through one of her TV scripts that we met, in fact). For the first decade or so she continued to make her own living, even when the kids were small. She was doing about four different things - storylines for Disney comics, playscouting for a German company, and so on. But I was always a high-earner, and my income always outweighed hers greatly.

 

But used to concern me that much of what she was doing was hackwork. She is a very talented lady, and was capable of far more. The snag was that the sort of things that really engaged her were likely to break even at best, and more likely to lose money in the early days.

 

She had ambitions as a novelist, for instance. And the Childrens Musical Theatre she founded (with two others) was both satisfying and valuable. Neither were going to be financially rewarding though.

 

Every now and then pride would drive her to take some secretarial job or other. I supported her, but always made it clear that I would rather she regarded me as her sponsor, or patron, while she tried to make it in the world she preferred. "When you write your blockbuster West End Musical, I shall be very happy to put my feet up and live off your royalties" I would say.

 

"Oh no you wouldn't" said P.

 

Personally, I've been very lucky in work. Most of the time I've loved what I do, and (by luck) I rose high quickly and stayed there. There was no question of my resenting the imbalance in our incomes; it was P that resented it. As a result, we lived at a lower standard than we could afford.

 

I> always find it so unfair when women marry a good man who

> - thanks to a good degree, willpower, hard work - supports

> a family and makes a successful family possible. The woman

> will enjoy 30 years of comfort zone, taking the kids to school

> in the posh car (which she could have NEVER afforded hadn't

> it been for the husband's money), holidays, jewellery, piano

> classes (or whatever is her latest idea)

 

I understand what you're saying, but it has never been like that with us. P's car has always been a battered third-hand vehicle (though she finally gave it away, claiming she couldn't afford to run it). Holidays? I had to spring them on her as a fait accompli, or she would never have agreed to them (When we went to Grenada a couple of years ago I put the air tickets in a Christmas cracker, insisting that I was sending her but would have to come along as a guide).

 

> way more comfortable than would be realistic for her amount

> of skills and diligence)

 

Not in P's case. The snag is that her skills are not highly rewarded, unless you're very very lucky. Three years ago, she told me proudly that she'd had her best year ever. She made just over £5,000. And believe me, she hadn't been slacking.

Her efforts deserved more money. That year, for instance, she spent six hard weeks co-organising a big event for the Writers' Guild. She got huge plaudits, kudos and gratitude - and her expenses.

 

 

> Because: let's face it: it is tough to raise kids bla bla. But it

> is much tougher to get up every at seven for forty years, go

> to work, work under pressure and most of all pay the bills, mortgage

> and the braces for the kids!

 

Well, that may well be true for most. But P was doing well and working hard during the kids' early years. And I loved my work, especially the pressure, and am sad that it seems to be giving me up. She has always worked much harder than me, but for far less money.

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