Is being left always the guy's fault?

[Katarn]

Despite having healed from the pain of a breakup fairly fast, I am nonetheless troubled by the idea that it was inevitably my fault. Not only now, but every single time a girl leaves a guy, especially if she left for someone else and/or she moves on quickly, it was the guy's fault. That is how I've grown to see relationships.

 

Just about any school of thought nurtures the idea that women are attracted on three levels: demonstration of alpha masculine qualities, emotional basis, and sexual satisfaction. And if a guy happens to fail in one or more - or if the amount he used to have in each declines, she will start looking for other, 'better men'. She lines up her candidates, even though she might be simply 'guessing' whether they are or are not better lovers, and stays with her current date/boyfriend until she ensures that he is not good enough for her, and then she stops caring about him.

That explains the reason girls are so much quicker to move on. They have done most of the moving on prior to the breakup, and they already have somebody else in mind.

 

"Instead of being head-over-heels in love with you by the end of 60 days, she left you. It was your fault you did not build enough attraction, did not give her the emotional qualities she wanted, did not satisfy her... you didn't listen or look for signs of her withering attraction to you. If you had done most things right, then she would not have left you. Even if you were her rebound lover, even if you were from different social circles or beliefs, even if her friends were urging her to leave you... if you had done most things right, she would have been too much in love to part from you."

 

This is something a certain dating coach professes, and I have not yet seen a comment that opposes him. He mentions this in just about any topic regarding breakups.

If I am to relate it to my most recent failed relationship, I can relate 100%. My previous thread speaks of the actual issue in detail (although the title might be misleading, because she probably did not do exactly what it implies).

Long story short, I was not a rebound at first, but I became one. She had been single for a few months, but still kept her ex around. She only cut contact with him after we started dating (hang around until she finds someone better). We moved through the relationship very quickly, and would have moved even more quickly had we had a private enough place. She was head-over-heels in love with me by day 45, a lovely relationship and good sex, then started being a little bit different (contemplating my potentially deteriorating qualities), then went cold for a week (distancing herself emotionally and seriously considering to break it off), then left me under the excuse of not being ready to move on (a cliche excuse to cover up her actual intention that I am not good enough, and she would rather try someone else or be alone, rather than invest in me).

The brackets are, of course, what this particular Coach's (if you have been guessing you probably guessed his name right) analysis of the situation would be.

 

So, my question: how true is this? Will a girl change from ecstatic love and devotion into ready to leave a guy because he has started slacking for two weeks? Can a guy not relax and have some loose fun with his girlfriend because that will make her lose interest? Is being a mysterious Prince Charming the only way to make a girl stay with you? How long do games have to be played before a guy no longer has to worry about his girl being unconsciously attracted to his competition?

 

I keep getting these emotional relapses. Once I think "I was a rebound. We met at the wrong time. Didn't plan to marry her, anyway. We had fun and that was it." But then I think "Had I been a better man, she would have stayed, regardless. And she would have seen a much vaster array of pleasures. Maybe I should have built more rapport; maybe I should have listened more, and cared less about unimportant matters; maybe I should not have given my full devotion after only a month of being together, I should have stayed more distant..."

 

The guilt that I feel amazes me. Is it, or is it not the man's fault? The coach's explanation sounds very logical, and I believe it. But this belief is driving me insane. Not only guilt-wise, but also by the notion that relationships are best maintained when the man gives 110%, because if he gives anything below, his woman will test him, then start searching for someone better, and eventually leave without remorse.

 

I would really appreciate an insight. These experts on the topic with their "a real man can have any woman/women he wants, for however long he wants" are seriously messing with my concepts. I have completely inherited the belief that a guy who has been left is a guy who is to blame. I can't rationalize the feeling away. It seems spot-on correct.

 

 

Thanks

[mightycpa]

Despite having healed from the pain of a breakup fairly fast, I am nonetheless troubled by the idea that it was inevitably my fault. Not only now, but every single time a girl leaves a guy, especially if she left for someone else and/or she moves on quickly, it was the guy's fault. That is how I've grown to see relationships.

 

Just about any school of thought nurtures the idea that women are attracted on three levels: demonstration of alpha masculine qualities, emotional basis, and sexual satisfaction. And if a guy happens to fail in one or more - or if the amount he used to have in each declines, she will start looking for other, 'better men'. She lines up her candidates, even though she might be simply 'guessing' whether they are or are not better lovers, and stays with her current date/boyfriend until she ensures that he is not good enough for her, and then she stops caring about him.

That explains the reason girls are so much quicker to move on. They have done most of the moving on prior to the breakup, and they already have somebody else in mind.

 

"Instead of being head-over-heels in love with you by the end of 60 days, she left you. It was your fault you did not build enough attraction, did not give her the emotional qualities she wanted, did not satisfy her... you didn't listen or look for signs of her withering attraction to you. If you had done most things right, then she would not have left you. Even if you were her rebound lover, even if you were from different social circles or beliefs, even if her friends were urging her to leave you... if you had done most things right, she would have been too much in love to part from you."

 

This is something a certain dating coach professes, and I have not yet seen a comment that opposes him. He mentions this in just about any topic regarding breakups.

If I am to relate it to my most recent failed relationship, I can relate 100%. My previous thread speaks of the actual issue in detail (although the title might be misleading, because she probably did not do exactly what it implies).

Long story short, I was not a rebound at first, but I became one. She had been single for a few months, but still kept her ex around. She only cut contact with him after we started dating (hang around until she finds someone better). We moved through the relationship very quickly, and would have moved even more quickly had we had a private enough place. She was head-over-heels in love with me by day 45, a lovely relationship and good sex, then started being a little bit different (contemplating my potentially deteriorating qualities), then went cold for a week (distancing herself emotionally and seriously considering to break it off), then left me under the excuse of not being ready to move on (a cliche excuse to cover up her actual intention that I am not good enough, and she would rather try someone else or be alone, rather than invest in me).

The brackets are, of course, what this particular Coach's (if you have been guessing you probably guessed his name right) analysis of the situation would be.

 

So, my question: how true is this? Will a girl change from ecstatic love and devotion into ready to leave a guy because he has started slacking for two weeks? Can a guy not relax and have some loose fun with his girlfriend because that will make her lose interest? Is being a mysterious Prince Charming the only way to make a girl stay with you? How long do games have to be played before a guy no longer has to worry about his girl being unconsciously attracted to his competition?

 

I keep getting these emotional relapses. Once I think "I was a rebound. We met at the wrong time. Didn't plan to marry her, anyway. We had fun and that was it." But then I think "Had I been a better man, she would have stayed, regardless. And she would have seen a much vaster array of pleasures. Maybe I should have built more rapport; maybe I should have listened more, and cared less about unimportant matters; maybe I should not have given my full devotion after only a month of being together, I should have stayed more distant..."

 

The guilt that I feel amazes me. Is it, or is it not the man's fault? The coach's explanation sounds very logical, and I believe it. But this belief is driving me insane. Not only guilt-wise, but also by the notion that relationships are best maintained when the man gives 110%, because if he gives anything below, his woman will test him, then start searching for someone better, and eventually leave without remorse.

 

I would really appreciate an insight. These experts on the topic with their "a real man can have any woman/women he wants, for however long he wants" are seriously messing with my concepts. I have completely inherited the belief that a guy who has been left is a guy who is to blame. I can't rationalize the feeling away. It seems spot-on correct.

 

 

Thanks

One day, you'll realize that you could have been perfect, and she'd have left anyway. Maybe not in the same time, maybe not in the same way, but she'd have been gone. There's too much opportunity out there... too much variety. You're not nomads in a desert community of a few thousand... the world is your oyster, and it is really big.

 

You're right about slacking too. A mature relationship will withstand that... a lot of that, from both people. It won't always be nice or comfortable, but it won't blow up the relationship either.

 

Your thinking is ahead of your time. All you have to do now is drag that stupid, lying, foolish heart of yours into reality. A strong mind can do that, and you seem like you a capable of strong rational thought. It will take some time, but you'll get there.

 

Really, there is no fault when someone gains or loses attraction for another. It's just a fact of life, sometimes it works for you, and sometimes against you. She can't control who she likes any more than you can. If you could, you'd snap your fingers and be over her. Doesn't work that way, does it? Well, it doesn't work that way for her either.

 

So lose the guilt. It's not your fault. It's not hers either.

[Katarn]

Hey, it's Mightycpa. Someone's been stalking

 

It is not really about her. My turbulence has more to do with me. I had plenty of options for dating, but I chose her. Then I planned most of my summer around being with her. She was just that fun to be around. And then I had all those plans taken away. At the frelling end of the semester. I don't get to meet new people because that's not how it works where I live (complicated cultural lore, it would take too long to explain), so I will be spending my days mostly in solitude until mid-September, when college starts again.

When loneliness gets to me, my mind goes back to the memories of the relationship and I get bummed out. I go like "She had a crush on me; she was ecstatic about being with me; I was out of her league in most regards... There is no way leaving me could have been her own initiative. I must have ****ed up at some point. And done so too deeply."

I am prone to guilt and have been guilt-tripped for a large portion of my conscious years. So I always turn to myself when blame is to be passed around.

And then I hear this world acclaimed coach talk about it always being the guy's fault... well, you know.

 

Maybe not in the same time, maybe not in the same way, but she'd have been gone.[/Quote]I know that in the long in run, the breakup was actually a good thing. I get to be off her psychotic ex's radar and I also got a reminder about dismissing old contacts; whereas she gets to get high and drunk off her ass with no one around to reproach her for it. Additionally, there is no use in having a loose relationship last long.

But the premise that she could have been around this summer, and I wouldn't have to spend the last summer of my teen years in solitude makes me mad. I feel that I shouldn't have gone south during finals. Should have been tougher and not let all the burden get to me. Then again, a guy who used to beat her got to spend five years with her. I get down for a week, and she leaves. dafuq

 

You're right about slacking too. A mature relationship will withstand that... a lot of that, from both people. [/Quote]Thank you. It means a lot to hear that social roleplaying and relationships are not inevitably paired. What this coach professes sounds so logical, that I am starting to lose faith in... faith. I see all these happy couples where no one demonstrates dominance or gets needlessly emotional... then I remember him saying "she stays with this guy until she finds a proper replacement. She will linger a bit longer until she stops caring, and then she'll leave him. A guy who doesn't pay attention is always in danger of being left". It is so hard to use an argument against that. I wishfully think that he only says that online, so people would buy his stuff. As in "well if it is always about the guy, he's going to teach me how to be the right guy. Let's buy his books". But he makes so much sense...

 

It will take some time, but you'll get there. [/Quote]Thanks for that paragraph. Very inspiring. Rationalization and accepting something logically is so much easier than feeling that way for real. Especially when all kinds of factors are working against you.

 

If you could, you'd snap your fingers and be over her [/Quote]I think I am. But I don't think I am over having been left. It was such a blow to my ego, and then adding loneliness on top of it. Not to mention the fact we'll be in direct contact for at least three more years. I don't like the idea of all the potential mind-****.

 

So hard to let go of some ideas. I feel perfectly fine at a moment, an hour later I plunge into guilt. Can't wait to eliminate its linger.

 

 

Thanks for replying. Much appreciated.

[Chi townD]

Very well thought out post. Hmm...

 

 

Well, in a lot of ways, you're right. When relationships fail or there's cases of infidelity on the woman's part. Men tend to get blamed. If there's a case of infidelity caused by a man; well, "He's a dog. He's a player. He's pond scum and a man whore." because society is programed to think that all men are prone to cheat. If a woman cheats, then "There was a problem with the relationship." "He was emotionally unavailable" "He put up an emotional wall around himself and you were shut out." So, when a man cheats, it's his fault. When a woman cheats, it's still his fault. That's why when I'm on here and there a case of infidelity but the couple is looking to reconcile, I ALWAYS tell them to do their research and find a couples or marriage counselor that specializes in infidelity. Any run of the mill "Oprah/ Dr. Phil" type marriage counselor will tell the betrayed spouse that it was their fault because they didn't do this, that or the other that caused the spouse to cheat. A marriage counselor that specializes in infidelity has been trained to make the cheater own up to their own sh*t.

 

 

You mentioned a dating coach that no one has opposed his comment. Well, I'm going to. You stated that he said that it was the guy's fault for not seeing her attraction waver, it's the guys fault for not being available to upping her emotional needs.

 

 

To me, it sounds like this coach is telling these guys that they need to place these girls on a pedestal and that is the WORST thing you can do to a relationship. If you place a girl on a pedestal, sooner or later she'll realize that she's looking down on you and it makes it really easy to step all over you from up there.

 

 

And to honest with you, MOST girls don't want to be placed on a pedestal. They would rather be by there man's side. Holding hands and walking through this life together as equals; as partners. And that's the key word here, "Partnership". Sure, girls like guys to do stuff for them, like opening doors for them BUT if they commit to a partnership, they feel that they are a part of something. Therefore, they become invested in it and will work equally as hard to build it and maintain it. So, that coach was wrong.

 

 

So, what we find coming here is when a girl is ready to end a relationship, they rarely WILL NOT leave until they have something else set up. Now, that may be another guy that she's been interested in or has been cheating on you with. Or, they have a support network already set up with their close girlfriends or family members. The funny thing is, they already know she's going to pull the trigger on the relationship. They've already helped her disconnect from the relationship. And the moment she pulls the trigger, BAM! she's got a support network and the guy is the last to know. Look at the threads here! Have you noticed something? The majority of threads are guys. Why? Because they have no other place to go. They don't have the same kind of support network.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Chi townD

[Hoosfoos]

To women, men are nothing more than a commodity. All women are mesmerized by Alpha male qualities and they will always drop the man they are with for something better. Anything women say to the contrary of this is BS. There are no exceptions.

[mrldii]

To women, men are nothing more than a commodity. All women are mesmerized by Alpha male qualities and they will always drop the man they are with for something better. Anything women say to the contrary of this is BS. There are no exceptions.

 

I was going to comment that when I left my last LTR (of 10+ years) with my last guy, I specifically I told him I was NOT leaving him for another man...I was leaving him for nothing...because nothing alone was better than nothing with him

 

but then I learned that I'd just be spewing BS. Or, I'd have to realize I'm not really a woman after 55 years of believing I am, so

 

 

nevermind.

[carhill]

It seems to me that whoever leaves is responsible for leaving. No one else can do it but them and, absent a gun to their head, no one can make them leave. It's purely voluntary, hence their responsibility.

[mightycpa]

It seems to me that whoever leaves is responsible for leaving. No one else can do it but them and, absent a gun to their head, no one can make them leave. It's purely voluntary, hence their responsibility.

Yeah, but not necessarily their FAULT, which would require some sort of wrongdoing.

[carhill]

In my world, fault and responsibility are interchangeable. Each person is autonomous and owns their choices, consequences and responsibilities. That was an important lesson learned in MC, being taking responsibility and assigning blame or fault to no one other than myself.

[Katarn]

I am starting to conclude something that feels right on a personal level. Deducing from some of the answers here, and the stressing of responsibility, I become aware of a key component I have been missing out when analyzing this (and other) situations. I have been constantly clinging to ‘was the guy man enough’, all the while ignoring ‘was the girl woman enough?’ - as in an adult, competent, nurturing, responsible human female.

 

Being the emotional backbone, it is a woman’s duty to provide emotional support in a relationship. It is up to her to ‘make or break’ her lover, and help him get past his insecurities (which is probably the reason men find females more confidential to open up to. Women’s heightened empathy gives them a sixth sense and an ability to recognize and rectify emotional turbulence).

That being said, just as a man is supposed to provide, protect, and show value (as in confidence and competence – which in turn could be referred to as dominance), his woman is supposed to nurture him on an emotional level, as in being supportive (as in actually supportive, not just wording her ‘support’) and complementing on qualities that he lacks. If the man’s value starts to falter, she is the one who is supposed to notice this, seek out the cause, and change it. In other words, a mature woman will invest in the man she’s with to get him to grow into his full potential.

A girl, on the other hand – immature, irresponsible, and only looking to be cared after – will drop him if she decides he is no longer good enough. She has a me-me-me attitude, and once she stops being provided what she thinks she wants, she will pick out a different provider.

 

Just as people who have it easy, and have never had reason to grow up, would rather throw something away than have it repaired. You know, the way a kid cares less about his pet being a responsibility than being a living toy… Your dog gets ill, you don’t drop it off and get a new one; you take it to the vet. But if a kid is to be faced with the responsibility, he would probably agree to the former. He’ll just get a new one – the other option is not worth the trouble.

 

I can actually relate this to the relationship that (sort of) inspired this thread. I remember her asking me if I thought she was pretty. She had what I call a lazy body. That is when girls are born attractive, they are resistant to gluttony, and therefore get to stay very attractive as long as their youth keeps them firm. A developed and a lazy body are best differentiated by the legs. Anyone can have a pretty face and a nice upper body, but a girl lacking exercise usually has thinner and less shapely legs. I’ll go sidetracking if I go into further detail, but I think you know what I mean.

So I told her that yes, I found her very attractive (which was true), but she should do some exercise as it would benefit her in more ways than just appearance (which is also true). I told her I would especially appreciate it if she worked on her legs (very true). Consequently… the idea of leaving her for a girl with a better pair of legs never even crossed my mind. Like, even now the concept of leaving a girl for one who is better looking sounds off. And appearance to guys is just as important as confidence is for girls. Again, if there is a problem which can be addressed and fixed, it should be addressed and fixed. Not covertly ‘hinted at’ (if even that) and walked away from.

The idea of a girl leaving a guy, at this point (well, as of today morning), sounds to me as an act of immaturity on the girl's part. As long as, of course, it is not a case of the guy having cheated, or moving out, or getting into a fistfight with her father… you know, the obvious exceptions.

So it is all about not accepting responsibility. Sticking around until she finds a replacement… the reasons given for the breakup, especially the clichéd and romantic-sounding ones… the whole ‘but I want to keep you as a friend’… it is all about the girl feeling good about herself: not wanting to take responsibility for her actions; not accepting consequence, and alleviating herself of guilt. So yeah, a classical, childish – me, me, me.

 

Who else agrees with this?

 

When relationships fail or there's cases of infidelity on the woman's part… So, when a man cheats, it's his fault. When a woman cheats, it's still his fault. That's why when I'm on here and there a case of infidelity but the couple is looking to reconcile, I ALWAYS tell them to do their research and find a couples or marriage counselor that specializes in infidelity. A marriage counselor that specializes in infidelity has been trained to make the cheater own up to their own sh*t. [/Quote] Very clever. I’ve never thought of the double standard on this one. Makes sense that the it's his fault is mostly a social belief. Not a fact.

 

To me, it sounds like this coach is telling these guys that they need to place these girls on a pedestal and that is the WORST thing you can do to a relationship. [/Quote] Not really. His method is

“get her to believe that she’s chasing you; keep her anticipating; don’t go out more than once a week during the first two months of dating; don’t get exclusive with her until she openly proclaims she wants an exclusive relationship; always gauge her interest levels; let her do the talking and don’t tell anything about yourself; listen to what she is saying and look for innuendo of the message she is trying to convey; be ready to leave at any moment…’

He advices acting like a moderate *******, albeit a chivalrous one (I’ll give him that), but at the end of the day, his method is about being super all the time. Not getting your own needs in the way (delaying, pretending to be busy instead of calling/texting/going out whenever you like), while putting all your attention on her (letting her do the talking, always listen, be attentive of what it is she might be trying to say).

If you haven’t been doing this, her leaving you (even if she cheated, even if you were a rebound, regardless of her explanation), was your fault.

 

Maybe this method is the correct method if you’re trying to build a serious, steady relationship. I don’t know. I’ve never had one.

But to me it sounds sleazy. Why have to be super all the time? It’s about comfort and fun, not manipulation. When I get to like a girl, I want to spend time with her. Not drag it on for months. Additionally, the two months I spent seeing her 2-4 times a week, were the best two months I’ve had this year. So… even if I went back in time, I still wouldn’t stretch out dates as if I was busy running a corporation or something.

 

So, what we find coming here is when a girl is ready to end a relationship, they rarely WILL NOT leave until they have something else set up. Now, that may be another guy that she's been interested in or has been cheating on you with. Or, they have a support network already set up with their close girlfriends or family members. The funny thing is, they already know she's going to pull the trigger on the relationship. They've already helped her disconnect from the relationship. And the moment she pulls the trigger, BAM! she's got a support network and the guy is the last to know. Look at the threads here! Have you noticed something? The majority of threads are guys. Why? Because they have no other place to go. They don't have the same kind of support network. [/Quote] Yeah. Couldn’t have said it better. I hadn’t even noticed until now that after a breakup, it is usually the guy that gets more hurting. And that is downright juvenile and selfish on the girl’s part. Like, the guy won't be looking for other girls, all the while his partner is lining up replacements… he will be left alone while having just about no one to turn to. He will have to start from ground zero. And the girl has already moved on.

While I don’t know for certain whether I was left for someone else (or what followed), I do know for a fact that she has her trustworthy ‘friends’ for support. An entire array of them. And I was careless enough to cut ties with my high school friends after high school, and too busy with college stuff and having a girlfriend to care for new contacts, that I am basically left for dead on a social scale. Ugh. It's not as bad as it sounds, though.

I am starting to think that these early, loose relationships rarely end on a positive note for both people. They usually end when one feels like moving on, and the other is left heartbroken. Like a standoff: Shoot first or be killed. I fear that in future relationships I will be torn between being the bad guy and breaking off first, or being virtuous and dealing with similar **** over and over again. Because reason coexists with chemistry, and no amount of rationalizing can alleviate the pain, regardless whether it is one’s heart or ego that aches, until time takes it away.

 

Yeah, but not necessarily their FAULT, which would require some sort of wrongdoing – In my world, fault and responsibility are interchangeable. [/Quote] Fault would be the blame assigned to a person for the negative effects of their voluntary actions. And guilt is its emotional representative.

I can’t stand people who don’t accept responsibility for their own fate/actions. I also have very little respect for those who pretend to accept responsibility, but lack what it takes to learn anything from their past mistakes. And then repeat them, hurting themselves and others in the process. A child has no responsibility, a man-child or a woman-child feels responsible only as long as it fits their fancies, and a mature person feels responsibility for concepts other than themselves. I am yet to meet one.

Although I am too young to have any credibility saying this, I think society has been going downhill in this regard. Virtue people manifest is mostly vague artifacts of their upbringing. The concept of responsibility is either gone or aimed at oneself, and used to justify bad decisions. Fortitude, honesty, determination, goal-orientation and responsibility are becoming extinct.

Yet people prosper. They are merry, thriving, and untouched. It is so annoying to see how dependent everyone is, yet how it all magically works out for them. It hinders my image of the world.

 

^ ^ Yeah, I'm going into a needless rant and I have no idea how to wrap up this post, which is lengthy enough as it is, so... umm...

 

 

Looking forward to your insights, and thank you for reading and replies.

 

 

Katarn

[mrldii]

I am starting to conclude something that feels right on a personal level. Deducing from some of the answers here, and the stressing of responsibility, I become aware of a key component I have been missing out when analyzing this (and other) situations. I have been constantly clinging to ‘was the guy man enough’, all the while ignoring ‘was the girl woman enough?’ - as in an adult, competent, nurturing, responsible human female.

 

Being the emotional backbone, it is a woman’s duty to provide emotional support in a relationship. It is up to her to ‘make or break’ her lover, and help him get past his insecurities (which is probably the reason men find females more confidential to open up to. Women’s heightened empathy gives them a sixth sense and an ability to recognize and rectify emotional turbulence).

That being said, just as a man is supposed to provide, protect, and show value (as in confidence and competence – which in turn could be referred to as dominance), his woman is supposed to nurture him on an emotional level, as in being supportive (as in actually supportive, not just wording her ‘support’) and complementing on qualities that he lacks. If the man’s value starts to falter, she is the one who is supposed to notice this, seek out the cause, and change it. In other words, a mature woman will invest in the man she’s with to get him to grow into his full potential.

A girl, on the other hand – immature, irresponsible, and only looking to be cared after – will drop him if she decides he is no longer good enough. She has a me-me-me attitude, and once she stops being provided what she thinks she wants, she will pick out a different provider.

 

Just as people who have it easy, and have never had reason to grow up, would rather throw something away than have it repaired. You know, the way a kid cares less about his pet being a responsibility than being a living toy… Your dog gets ill, you don’t drop it off and get a new one; you take it to the vet. But if a kid is to be faced with the responsibility, he would probably agree to the former. He’ll just get a new one – the other option is not worth the trouble.

 

I can actually relate this to the relationship that (sort of) inspired this thread. I remember her asking me if I thought she was pretty. She had what I call a lazy body. That is when girls are born attractive, they are resistant to gluttony, and therefore get to stay very attractive as long as their youth keeps them firm. A developed and a lazy body are best differentiated by the legs. Anyone can have a pretty face and a nice upper body, but a girl lacking exercise usually has thinner and less shapely legs. I’ll go sidetracking if I go into further detail, but I think you know what I mean.

So I told her that yes, I found her very attractive (which was true), but she should do some exercise as it would benefit her in more ways than just appearance (which is also true). I told her I would especially appreciate it if she worked on her legs (very true). Consequently… the idea of leaving her for a girl with a better pair of legs never even crossed my mind. Like, even now the concept of leaving a girl for one who is better looking sounds off. And appearance to guys is just as important as confidence is for girls. Again, if there is a problem which can be addressed and fixed, it should be addressed and fixed. Not covertly ‘hinted at’ (if even that) and walked away from.

The idea of a girl leaving a guy, at this point (well, as of today morning), sounds to me as an act of immaturity on the girl's part. As long as, of course, it is not a case of the guy having cheated, or moving out, or getting into a fistfight with her father… you know, the obvious exceptions.

So it is all about not accepting responsibility. Sticking around until she finds a replacement… the reasons given for the breakup, especially the clichéd and romantic-sounding ones… the whole ‘but I want to keep you as a friend’… it is all about the girl feeling good about herself: not wanting to take responsibility for her actions; not accepting consequence, and alleviating herself of guilt. So yeah, a classical, childish – me, me, me.

 

Who else agrees with this?...

 

Yeah. Couldn’t have said it better. I hadn’t even noticed until now that after a breakup, it is usually the guy that gets more hurting. And that is downright juvenile and selfish on the girl’s part. Like, the guy won't be looking for other girls, all the while his partner is lining up replacements… he will be left alone while having just about no one to turn to. He will have to start from ground zero. And the girl has already moved on...

 

Fault would be the blame assigned to a person for the negative effects of their voluntary actions. And guilt is its emotional representative.

I can’t stand people who don’t accept responsibility for their own fate/actions. I also have very little respect for those who pretend to accept responsibility, but lack what it takes to learn anything from their past mistakes. And then repeat them, hurting themselves and others in the process. A child has no responsibility, a man-child or a woman-child feels responsible only as long as it fits their fancies, and a mature person feels responsibility for concepts other than themselves. I am yet to meet one...

 

 

Looking forward to your insights, and thank you for reading and replies.

 

 

Katarn

 

It is nice to see that in about 24 hours you've gone from wondering if you are 100% to blame to completely absolving yourself of any and all responsibility in the failure of the relationship, and have laid it 100% at your ex-girlfriend's feet, due to her immaturity and inability to be a real woman whose job it is - according to you - to make a man out of you.

 

Such a quick healing process and turn-around!!! Most people take months, nay years, to make sense of it all, and you were able to do it in a day. You should write a book showing others how it's done...

 

 

...if you haven't already.

[DoIdeserveThis]

Red Pill much? I read both of your posts and those tell me that your opinion about relationships and male/female roles is coloured by this philosophy. May I ask you when did you become interested in it and why?

 

So yeah, a classical, childish – me, me, me.

 

This is how I perceive things that you wrote.

 

Not even once I saw that you care about that girl deeply. Is there anything you did to help her overcome that trauma of abusive relationship? I see that you are interested in psychology, so did you read any material to better understand what was she going through? Drug and alcohol abuse were clearly coping mechanisms remained from such a long mistreatment. She needs help from a professional to get out of that hell.

 

I am sorry but everything I see is inflated ego hurt. Asking yourself why did she dump you and what could you do better to fake it into being proper alpha so she stays with you until you get bored and decide to dump her. (FYI, there are plenty of women out there, myself included, who are not amused with 'alphas' at all)

 

If you are such a great catch why you haven't got her friends' approval? Just because you are obviously better than an abuser, that doesn't mean you were treating her as nice as you should. Negging physical appearance of a person with a shattered self esteem looks pretty careless to me.

 

Sorry if I sound harsh I just hope you will abandon that unhealthy way of thinking. For the next time stop worrying about the impression you are trying to make. Try to listen and understand your partner better. Some girl will respect you and love you for who you really are, not for playing whatever role. Analyse less, care more.

[Oregon_Dude]

You're talking about Coach Corey Wayne. He's got some good motivational stuff, and is definitely helpful in general. However, this is one thing he's totally wrong about. It is not our "fault" every time a woman loses interest or wants to break up. Sometimes they just up and decide they don't want a relationship anymore. Sometimes they... who knows? Women are notoriously hard to read and understand.

 

If she doesn't want you, try not to sweat it. Someone once told me there's more than one woman out there. There's like 12 of them!

[guest569]

Stop reading BS. people are all individuals and leave others for a variety of reasons, sometimes there is no one to blame. I'm not too sure where this is going.

[theredpill]

Absolutely 90% of the time it's the mans fault and the main reasons for his woman leaving are....

 

1) Not courting here like he should, all my really long term R/S friends (5 years+) still go out on date nights and holidays away regularly

 

HAVE FUN!

 

If you don't court your woman SOMEONE ELSE WILL!

 

2) Arguing - lowers attraction

 

3) Jealousy - lowers attraction

 

4) Neediness/Clingy behaviour - lowers attraction

 

5) Let's not forget crying and begging at the end absolutely destroys any attraction left, this is why so many breakups are permanent.

 

If you're guilty one or more of the above, this is why she left.

 

Remember is not her job to fix you, that's your job!

 

The only difference is in the quality of the woman, a good woman will help keep you in here life with guidance, a not so good woman, will line up a replacement and then dump you - 3 days later she's in bed with the new guy.

 

The only real other factor is time/love you have with this person.

 

Sometimes, you'll be able to get away with the above for many months. However, some women especially during the dating period will drop you with just 1 mistake.

 

I've dumped many women for not meeting my needs, does that make me a total barsteward - no of course not and it's the same for a women, they're not bi-polar bitches like half of the comments we read.

 

The greatest thing a man can do in the event of a R/S failure is realise where "HE" went wrong and fix it for the next one. Stop blaming the ex, if she went out with you and then ended it, it's because what you became was not the person she fell in love with.

 

Perhaps the best advice to the men on here is go and watch some films from the 40's & 50's where men are men, did Grant chase and beg Hepburn, absofigginlutely not... oh and grow a set of bollocks, men don't beg women, punch yourself in the face if you've done this.

 

Todays' portrayal of men in the media in both TV and Film is pretty much responsible for turning men into total wussbags.

 

Who would your woman rather date, James Bond or Ross from Friends...

 

nuff said, the end

[Katarn]

The blinding difference between opinions such as the ones of smiley1 and the redpill are the reason for my bipolar thoughts on the matter.

You're talking about Coach Corey Wayne [/Quote] Yes. Him. I realized that I only know how to get a girl attracted to me, and more often than not, get her in bed. But for some reason, maintaining a relationship felt like an absolute contrast to the aforementioned talents. So I decided to look up someone with knowledge on the topic of relationships. When I saw how incredibly popular he was, I thought ‘this guy has to be THE coach,’ so I invested in learning his methods. When he got around to talking about breakups, the notion that he says it is the guy’s fault bummed me out. I did not feel nearly as effed up before getting to his content.

 

If any of you misunderstood what I said about a woman’s role in a man’s life, read ‘Sons and Lovers’ by D.H. Lawrence and contrast the characters of the eldest son’s girlfriend and the mother. Or, if you’re not into that kind of literature (neither am I), read ‘On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft’ by Stephen King. The first part is autobiographical. Look at the role his wife has had in his life. That is what a high quality woman does. She doesn’t decide she is no longer being provided for and cared for as she used to, her partner has changed from the man she fell in love with, and leaves off for something she thinks will be better for her. She invests in the person she is with. Unlike a childish, catlike behavior, a good woman is loyal and invests. She has faith and love in abundance, and uses it to complement her man’s shortcomings.

And before feminists pounce on me for the blasphemy, I will state that it is not done in a servile manner. Unless, of course, such is the woman’s personality. A mature woman respects her partner enough to care for him, and she respects herself enough to be certain that she has not made a mistake by choosing him, so she knows that a faltering of his manliness is not a reason to just walk away. She will try to fix it, instead.

 

Lovers – especially young lovers – should treat a relationship as a means of growth. They should learn from their mutual experience, support each others’ strengths, and complement and overcome weaknesses. It is a process of mutual improvement, and both people should come out of it better than they were upon entering. That is what a healthy relationship is to young people. Ones with the premise of becoming mature.

The other end of the spectrum is a relationship based solely on selfish purposes. Whether it is a rebound, not wanting to be alone, bragging rights, sex, presents, fantasy… when either one or both of the lovers get together because of immature reasons, the relationship is bound to fall apart because of immature actions. It can be either the guy or the girl.

 

My latest post was a counter-argument to what had been going around in my head for some time. I am not putting all the blame at the feet of my ex, nor do I state that objectively, any girl who leaves her partner is to blame. On one hand, I said I had bipolar feelings about it.

@ mrldii: If you can’t take a young man’s angst for what it is, I won’t take an old woman’s reproach for what she believes it is.

 

 

Let’s take a look at how girls (immature girls, the ones I was referring to) decide to leave their partners. And no, not break up. Leave. Because that is what they’re doing. They literally run away from a hurdle in their idea of the perfect man.

 

- The reasoning is self-centered.

 

It is mostly about the guy coming off as not what they had expected. They don’t want to deal with his problems, nor help him grow. They just want somebody to boost their ego; not make them work for any of it; provide them support that feels good, but is not necessarily productive (compare sure babe, you’re a 10/10, with You are very attractive, but I think you should exercise to keep that body firm). When a girl’s goal is to be taken care of, and she is willing to invest only as long is does not require any strenuous effort, her behavior is nothing more than childish.

 

And if you think this is not a common occurrence, look at bestselling women’s novels of later years, and tell me the popularity of titles such as 'Twilight' and '50 Shades of Grey' is not directly linked to the root of the causes I describe above.

 

- Let’s take a look at the process prior to breaking up:

 

The girl starts questioning her appeal for the guy. She starts testing him. By now he trusts her enough to think she is past those urges, so when she tells him she can’t go out that night because she is not feeling well, he believes her. He will call her, text her, and talk to her to make her feel better. While in the meantime she sees him as needy. He loses worth in her eyes. She deliberately talks about considering breaking up with him among friends she is perfectly aware are looking forward to it. This way she will alleviate herself off the guilt, knowing that some part of it was her friends’ idea. She will start demonstrating second rate behavior to the guy. Already having a relationship formed, the guy will consider it just a phase, or might find it cute, so he lets her. This, she concludes, is further evidence of his neediness.

She starts looking at other guys. She starts talking to them more. Maybe she even flirts with some behind her partner’s back. Alternatively, she sets up a network of close friends to use as a cushion upon a breakup. Once she lines up potential replacements, or has friends ready to soothe her conscious, she only stays with her partner until she stops caring about him.

In the meantime, confident in his girlfriend’s trustworthiness, and devoted enough not to even consider replacements, because so far the relationship has been doing perfectly well, the guy is being led into a very lonely and unfortunate place. Only to be later accused of having been less of a man, and everything being his fault.

 

- Now for the breakup itself and post-breakup:

 

Lame, clichéd excuses. If they are so certain they are doing the right thing, why hide the real cause?

‘But I want to keep you as a friend’. We all know what this really is. It has been debated here before. And there is a consensus on the selfishness of the action. Not to mention how quickly they move into another relationship (sometimes within a week), making this new relationship a predestined rebound (thus breaking two hearts instead of one). And, of course, breadcrumbs.

 

I did not say that guys are blameless. I said that they are unjustly bashed for not being perfect.

 

 

Red Pill much? I read both of your posts and those tell me that your opinion about relationships and male/female roles is coloured by this philosophy. May I ask you when did you become interested in it and why? [/Quote] I didn’t even know what that meant until you mentioned it. I googled it, and also got a reply by one right here. No, I have not been following their philosophy, although it definitely comes close. My sources are all kinds of places, but I have never met the term itself, nor have I found an abundance of misogyny when learning of gender roles. I got interested in understanding females when I was about 17. I got pissed at seeing a crush, surrounded by all kinds of caring, nice guys (myself included), everyone hoping to win her heart in their own way (some with their looks, others with intelligence, humor, wealth, charisma…) but she eventually went for a short, stubby, neckbeard two years older than her. I couldn’t believe it. He didn’t seem nicer than any of the other guys, and he was objectively less attractive. I was constantly exposed to incongruent couples, so I decided I wanted to learn the science behind it. I decided I deserved better than being played by attractive girls, doing things for them, competing with my male friends, and still ending up in the friendzone.

 

Not even once I saw that you care about that girl deeply. Is there anything you did to help her overcome that trauma of abusive relationship? [/Quote] Not particularly, no. She never posed it as a problem. She always told me she was over him, and that she was mine. She was objectively happier when she was with me. The subtle changes in her face made her more attractive. All of her friends told her how much happier and changed she looked. Other guys were becoming interested in her.

She used to compare herself to her old self every now and again, and each time I told her that she was more attractive, smarter, and a lot more temperate now than she had been in high school. My assumption was based on stories and pictures. She, however, rarely agreed. She even disagreed with me that it was the HGH that made her face less round after turning 16, and claimed it had been other, less flattering factors.

 

She knew I accepted her past, and she also knew I was not proud of it. I oftentimes struggled with myself whether I wanted to be with a girl who among loving parents, wealth, support, and all kinds of pleasantries, had betrayed everyone who has ever loved her for the vanity of being with a guy who seemed cool to her. It was hard for me to get over it. But I did. I saw her as someone who should not suffer because of her past. I have an actual speech about it in my previous thread. I risked being the target of an obsessive stalker, and I got into arguments at home. I felt like she needed to be loved and supported, and that is what I did. I even programmed myself to love her (by telling her I loved her continuously) because she loved me, and I felt she deserved equal affection.

 

However, every time I tried looking at her as a victim, or someone who deserves forgiveness, something altered my view.

 

I have had a somewhat troubled past myself. I used to be involved in criminal activity when I was younger. Not a delinquent – an actual criminal. I despise those days and I never bring them up. I don’t want to talk about them, regardless of how romantic they sometimes sound. I never even want to address them. Because those were bad days. And I have learned from them. That chapter is closed.

She, on the other hand, despite saying that she hated her high school years, that she had gone through hell with that guy, couldn’t stop reminiscing of her past days. She was extremely nostalgic about them. Not about him, but for a person who resents her past, she was way too eager to talk about it.

 

She didn’t seem to have learned a lesson. She didn’t dislike her ex because of what he had done to her – she disliked him because he kept annoying her afterwards. She was not aware of the dangers of the situation. She was behaving like a carefree kid – ‘I don’t see it, so it doesn’t exist; It doesn’t hurt me, so it must be harmless.’

At times it felt like she was mostly interested in merit. She kept a bully boyfriend in high school, so someone protects her physically, but after he grew into a loser, she left him and went for someone intellectual and prosperous.

Then it felt like she was playing the ‘If Not for You’ script (Eric Berne), and put all her problems on her past. If that was not bad enough, she was also unwilling to change anything about herself.

I think I was trying to focus on her bright side, but ignored the eclipse.

 

Drug and alcohol abuse were clearly coping mechanisms remained from such a long mistreatment. She needs help from a professional to get out of that hell. [/Quote] Not really. She was so into the supposed benevolence of drugs, that she was trying to get me to get high. She even saw my lack experience in that field as a flaw. ‘Everybody smokes pot. Even <a nerd’s name from class> does it. Her friend got her onto drugs long before her partner started getting aggressive with her. Alcohol is considered a virtue where I live. Literally 90% of people get drunk whenever they go out. My soberness and occasional social drinking are an exception – and shunned upon. Getting drunk off your ass is the new necessity for teenage fun. That is not related.

 

As for professional help, I agreed with her that she should get herself checked out after the semester ends. I did, however (as well as her parents) disapprove of her seeing a psychiatrist. “Why go to someone who benefits from you being unwell? He will say you have something you don’t, just so he can drag you around and take your money. You have friends, family, and a boyfriend. Why not entrust your psyche to someone who loves you, rather than someone who loves your money…” was the argument. And I stand by it. Most doctors in my country are immoral and greedy. And worst of all, generally unskilled. So it was not misleading advice.

 

I am sorry but everything I see is inflated ego hurt. Asking yourself why did she dump you and what could you do better to fake it into being proper alpha so she stays with you until you get bored and decide to dump her. (FYI, there are plenty of women out there, myself included, who are not amused with 'alphas' at all) [/Quote] I never mentioned trying to fake anything. I mentioned being against faking in rhetorical questions. But I do not fake. And I never intended to dump her when I got bored. I intended for us to stay together as long as we could grow from our mutual experience. It is my personal belief that if a guy does not plan to marry a girl, his goal in the relationship should be to help her grow and become a better woman out of it.

 

I admit it is my ego that hurts. However, don’t deceive yourself. Do you find height, muscles, and facial hair attractive? – You are attracted by testosterone. Do you like a guy with nice hair and good clothes? – You are attracted by social values. Do prefer confident but cold men over warm but insecure men? – You are attracted to dominant men. You do like alphas. A real man is usually an alpha, but an alpha is not necessarily a real man. An alpha is not the burly guy with expensive glasses and a chain around his neck. An alpha is a guy who stands apart from others simply by boasting superior attributes.

 

If you are such a great catch why you haven't got her friends' approval? [/Quote] I had her friends’ approval at first. They didn’t even believe her when she told them we hooked up. Only two of her friends were against us. One was the ring-leader in their group. She was a girl my ex grew up with, and they had been together from first grade to college. They still are. Her parents used her as a comparison reference. She was the alpha-female, if one were to put it that way. She was tall and fat-ish. Used a lot of product in her hair, fake tans and makeup to cover it up. Saved herself until she was 18, but once she lost her virginity, went wild and hit the hay with just about every guy she met.

I think that she disliked the influence I had on her friend. While we were dating, my ex would spend less time with her, and more time with me. She started listening to different music, and seemed less interested in their previous methods of entertainment. I believe that has something to do with her friend disliking me. Additionally, my ex improved her grades and started doing better than her. She was also very boisterous with the gifts I used to give her. I think somewhere along the line, her alpha-friend decided she should at least try and rupture our bond.

The other one was a misery loves company type. She was very unattractive (though she could have changed that) and did not have a boyfriend. Her best friend was a gay guy she had a crush on. She wasn’t openly against us being together, but I’m sure she felt bad about being the only single girl in the group.

All of her other friends accepted me. Only two (who happened to be her closest friends) were against.

 

Just because you are obviously better than an abuser, that doesn't mean you were treating her as nice as you should. Negging physical appearance of a person with a shattered self esteem looks pretty careless to me. [/Quote] I never negged her appearance. I told her the truth. I always told her she was attractive and I always assured her I found her beautiful. I mentioned she should exercise the same way she would sometimes mention my stubble was getting too long. I worked hard on boosting her confidence.

I drew her portrait and dedicated a sonnet sequence to her. Granted, I didn’t go too much out of my way to do that, as those are things I enjoy in general. But I didn’t do it to get her in bed. I did it because those things made her happy, and I loved seeing her happy. If making your girlfriend happy is not caring and affectionate, and stands only slightly higher than being an abuser… I don’t even know.

I tried to get her to change the ways that made her depressed. I risked my own safety being with her, and I risked not catching up with my own work, helping her with material she struggled with.

I was always there for her whenever she needed me. I did not grow needy. I was being a good boyfriend.

 

Of course I am going to write through a ‘me’ perspective. That is how I perceive things. I’m an individualist. And the supposed lack of care in my posts is… well, after being heartbroken, manipulated, tested, and stranded… how is it up to me to keep showing concern about a person who I’m sure barely ever thinks of me… probably thrown away the portrait and deleted the poems, as well. I think she has made it very clear she wants me out of her life. My initial concern for her safety got repaid in scorn. So no, I don’t think she needs me worrying about her anymore.

 

people are all individuals [/Quote] Sorry, but I consider those to be antonyms.

 

2) Arguing - lowers attraction; 4) Neediness/Clingy behaviour - lowers attraction; Let's not forget crying and begging… [/Quote] I neither cried nor begged. We argued sometimes, yes. But if I say we argued, you'll say ‘that did it’. If I say we never argued, you'll say ‘you were being needy.’ This belief is a fallacy. Real men are honest to themselves and their women. If you have to constantly court (in the right way), and pretend to be an emotionless robot – you’re not being authentic to yourself.

I have only recently learned of the Red Pill, and that is type of thinking leads people into misogyny. I agree there are things a man should and should not do. He has his respectable role in the relationship. But the myth of toughness is overpowered by the truth of being comfortable with oneself. From what I saw, the Red Pill approves hitting women... nah, dude. That's just wrong.

 

Perhaps the best advice to the men on here is go and watch some films from the 40's & 50's where men are men… odays' portrayal of men in the media in both TV and Film is pretty much responsible for turning men into total wussbags. [/Quote] You know, I agree that sitcom characters are downright awful portrayals of men. It is one of the reasons I don’t find Friends as great as most people do. But… Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark, Wolverine, Rick Grimes, Hershel, Dexter Morgan, John Becker, Star-Lord, Maximus, Captain Miller, Sergeant Elias,… these characters aren’t portrayed as real men?

 

 

That was a long post, but I think I summed up what I intended to say well enough. I am looking forward to some of your replies. I sometimes disagree, and I sometimes ask further questions to clarify the belief, but I enjoy reading your opinions.

 

 

Katarn

[mrldii]

OP, I am one of those "immature, childish girls" to whom you keep referring, but feminists shouldn't take offense to; I am this because - according to you - I left a man and did not show my loyalty into helping guide him to being a better person, i.e., a grown man.

 

As I stated earlier, I left my last 10+-year LTR for nothing, because nothing alone was better than nothing together. For 10+ years, I understood his 'shortcomings', his hostile upbringing which *made* him the way he was, I understood his inability TO communicate and interact in meaningful ways to get that which he most wanted and desired out of a relationship. (By the way, these are his words, NOT mine; these are his stated wishes, not the ones I designed for him and thought he should adopt.)

 

After 10+ years of being patient, being understanding, and being "helpful" and - instead of seeing any time of improvement or positive movement - I was left with a man even more comfortable to continue living in his rather isolated rut, due - in large part - TO my understanding, patience, and *helpfulness*.

 

At the immature and childish age of 50, I selfishly chose to no longer embrace, enable, and empower his own self-chosen and self-soothing stagnation.

 

Guess what? Once I left, he realized how lonely he truly was (and not just due to my absence) and actually began working on relational issues which had previously left him cut-off and isolated from getting out of a relationship that which he truly wanted.

 

 

Yeah...I'm a Big Girl...I'll take the blame for it...all 100% of it, if you truly insist.

[ManyDissapoint]

OP, I am one of those "immature, childish girls" to whom you keep referring, but feminists shouldn't take offense to; I am this because - according to you - I left a man and did not show my loyalty into helping guide him to being a better person, i.e., a grown man.

 

As I stated earlier, I left my last 10+-year LTR for nothing, because nothing alone was better than nothing together. For 10+ years, I understood his 'shortcomings', his hostile upbringing which *made* him the way he was, I understood his inability TO communicate and interact in meaningful ways to get that which he most wanted and desired out of a relationship. (By the way, these are his words, NOT mine; these are his stated wishes, not the ones I designed for him and thought he should adopt.)

 

After 10+ years of being patient, being understanding, and being "helpful" and - instead of seeing any time of improvement or positive movement - I was left with a man even more comfortable to continue living in his rather isolated rut, due - in large part - TO my understanding, patience, and *helpfulness*.

 

At the immature and childish age of 50, I selfishly chose to no longer embrace, enable, and empower his own self-chosen and self-soothing stagnation.

 

Guess what? Once I left, he realized how lonely he truly was (and not just due to my absence) and actually began working on relational issues which had previously left him cut-off and isolated from getting out of a relationship that which he truly wanted.

 

 

Yeah...I'm a Big Girl...I'll take the blame for it...all 100% of it, if you truly insist.

 

I'd say after 10 years of dealing with someone in a rut you did your time. When it comes down to standing by and supporting your partner through a rut, how long is too long? Some people end relationships in this situation after 2 weeks, others after 2 decades.

 

Not sure why you are using so much sarcasm in your post.

[singsparkles]

Despite having healed from the pain of a breakup fairly fast, I am nonetheless troubled by the idea that it was inevitably my fault. Not only now, but every single time a girl leaves a guy, especially if she left for someone else and/or she moves on quickly, it was the guy's fault. That is how I've grown to see relationships.

 

Just about any school of thought nurtures the idea that women are attracted on three levels: demonstration of alpha masculine qualities, emotional basis, and sexual satisfaction. And if a guy happens to fail in one or more - or if the amount he used to have in each declines, she will start looking for other, 'better men'. She lines up her candidates, even though she might be simply 'guessing' whether they are or are not better lovers, and stays with her current date/boyfriend until she ensures that he is not good enough for her, and then she stops caring about him.

That explains the reason girls are so much quicker to move on. They have done most of the moving on prior to the breakup, and they already have somebody else in mind.

 

"Instead of being head-over-heels in love with you by the end of 60 days, she left you. It was your fault you did not build enough attraction, did not give her the emotional qualities she wanted, did not satisfy her... you didn't listen or look for signs of her withering attraction to you. If you had done most things right, then she would not have left you. Even if you were her rebound lover, even if you were from different social circles or beliefs, even if her friends were urging her to leave you... if you had done most things right, she would have been too much in love to part from you."

 

This is something a certain dating coach professes, and I have not yet seen a comment that opposes him. He mentions this in just about any topic regarding breakups.

If I am to relate it to my most recent failed relationship, I can relate 100%. My previous thread speaks of the actual issue in detail (although the title might be misleading, because she probably did not do exactly what it implies).

Long story short, I was not a rebound at first, but I became one. She had been single for a few months, but still kept her ex around. She only cut contact with him after we started dating (hang around until she finds someone better). We moved through the relationship very quickly, and would have moved even more quickly had we had a private enough place. She was head-over-heels in love with me by day 45, a lovely relationship and good sex, then started being a little bit different (contemplating my potentially deteriorating qualities), then went cold for a week (distancing herself emotionally and seriously considering to break it off), then left me under the excuse of not being ready to move on (a cliche excuse to cover up her actual intention that I am not good enough, and she would rather try someone else or be alone, rather than invest in me).

The brackets are, of course, what this particular Coach's (if you have been guessing you probably guessed his name right) analysis of the situation would be.

 

So, my question: how true is this? Will a girl change from ecstatic love and devotion into ready to leave a guy because he has started slacking for two weeks? Can a guy not relax and have some loose fun with his girlfriend because that will make her lose interest? Is being a mysterious Prince Charming the only way to make a girl stay with you? How long do games have to be played before a guy no longer has to worry about his girl being unconsciously attracted to his competition?

 

I keep getting these emotional relapses. Once I think "I was a rebound. We met at the wrong time. Didn't plan to marry her, anyway. We had fun and that was it." But then I think "Had I been a better man, she would have stayed, regardless. And she would have seen a much vaster array of pleasures. Maybe I should have built more rapport; maybe I should have listened more, and cared less about unimportant matters; maybe I should not have given my full devotion after only a month of being together, I should have stayed more distant..."

 

The guilt that I feel amazes me. Is it, or is it not the man's fault? The coach's explanation sounds very logical, and I believe it. But this belief is driving me insane. Not only guilt-wise, but also by the notion that relationships are best maintained when the man gives 110%, because if he gives anything below, his woman will test him, then start searching for someone better, and eventually leave without remorse.

 

I would really appreciate an insight. These experts on the topic with their "a real man can have any woman/women he wants, for however long he wants" are seriously messing with my concepts. I have completely inherited the belief that a guy who has been left is a guy who is to blame. I can't rationalize the feeling away. It seems spot-on correct.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

Take everything you said, and throw it out the window. Women do not have a "type" ....

 

There will be many girls you meet who do not find you attractive, and many that find you overly attractive.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Just because one girl didn't think you "fit her standards" doesn't mean theres not another girl out there hoping, praying and wishing a guy like you comes along to sweep her off her feet.

 

Love really is a battlefield type of game. But dont play the game. Be you. Thats the beauty in it.

 

Don't change who you are to mold to society or mold to what "you think women want" ...

 

Give it time. Work on yourself. Love yourself. Don't settle for less.

 

A woman is going to come along and notice you right away and want to know everything about you, whether it's mutual or not.

 

Eventually, you will find someone who feels what you feel and the feeling is mutual.

 

This time is not the last time and her opinions about you don't MAKE you who you are.

 

You know who you are and what you're worth and thats all that matters.

 

 

xox:love:

[mrldii]

I'd say after 10 years of dealing with someone in a rut you did your time. When it comes down to standing by and supporting your partner through a rut, how long is too long? Some people end relationships in this situation after 2 weeks, others after 2 decades.

 

Not sure why you are using so much sarcasm in your post.

 

My post was addressing the OP's OP and his subsequent posts; nowhere when citing The Rules did he suggest there is a minimum/maximum time frame for women - even feminists - to serve their time and be absolved of the childish, immature label when choosing to 'abandon' a man.

 

 

Sarcasm? According to the definition, I utilize to keep from, virtually, strangling people; I say, "Whatever works!", yanno?

[jay1983]

The stuff about the friend who tried to break up the two of you, misery loves company really hit home.

 

OP you're kinda right, if you frequent this forum often, you can read what a lot of women write about new men they're seeing. They'll basically discribe him and ask "is this a red flag, is that a red flag?" deciding whether or not to continue seeing him. And a lot of it has to do with his past, is he over his divorce or is he clingy. He said this, what does it mean yada yada.

 

You have to know that women want what's best for them, so they're in it for them first. Now if their needs, or at least most of their needs are met, then they might look to see what they can do for you.

 

Now all this analyzing, I'm not sure is healthy for you. It's good to pick up and understand a few things as you gain experience, but I get the impression you're picking most of this up by reading and yes it looks a lot like the red pill type stuff. Those philosophies create a hyperbolic view of relationships and while there is some truth to it/them, it's not as black and white.

[Katarn]

I'd say after 10 years of dealing with someone in a rut you did your time. When it comes down to standing by and supporting your partner through a rut, how long is too long? Some people end relationships in this situation after 2 weeks, others after 2 decades. Not sure why you are using so much sarcasm in your post. [/Quote] Thank you. For a moment there I thought everyone was misreading my posts.

At the immature and childish age of 50, I selfishly chose to no longer embrace, enable, and empower his own self-chosen and self-soothing stagnation. [/Quote] ManyDisappoint explained it best. There is a difference between trying to get a partner back on his tracks, and running away at initial hints at discordance. I mentioned multiple times that I was referring to young couples, and I made it clear that there are obvious and understandable exceptions. I also listed behaviors that demonstrate immaturity on the female’s part.

I don’t see how you keep misunderstanding my posts. Additionally, you never add anything to the topic itself, nor do you state arguments. Your first post was you talking about yourself, your second post was pure, uncalled for, and juvenile sarcasm, and your third post is… well, a combination of the two. You then proceeded to dismiss the explanation given to you by a respected member, and explained that:

Sarcasm? According to the definition, I utilize to keep from, virtually, strangling people; I say, "Whatever works!", yanno? [/Quote] You keep defending your own actions (even though nobody attacks them) and continuously attack my arguments (with nothing more advanced than bare sarcasm).

Did I hit a nerve, or are you just trolling for a fight?

 

You have to know that women want what's best for them, so they're in it for them first. Now if their needs, or at least most of their needs are met, then they might look to see what they can do for you. [/Quote] But that is the problem, man. I am trying to realize what the hell happened. Everyone tells me to learn from my mistakes, but I don’t know what they were. I can see how I started slacking for awhile, but seriously? Antihistamine side effects and pressure of finals were enough to drive a person away from me? Forever? Yes, it’s an ego-problem. I admit it. I have never in life thought I’d be dumped.

 

But come on, our relationship was going uphill… we reached a new milestone in emotional closeness; we had plans for the summer; and then she shut me off in a week. Or, if I am to consider there being some ‘testing’ period, two weeks. As if nothing I did until then mattered? How can you dump someone (more so, make them want to dump you so you don’t feel bad about yourself), if you had been head-over-heels in love with them less than a fortnight before?

 

And furthermore, the thing that I want to draw a conclusion from is why? I want to see where it was that I went wrong. Because the reason she gave me for breaking up… come on, there is no way that was an honest, legit reason. It is something out of a chickflick: “I have been having these dreams and waking recollections… hallucinations, almost. I keep hearing sounds. He haunts me. I keep thinking of how he mistreated me. And in all this rage, I realize I am not yet over him. I don’t love him, I am just not over what he has done to me. I thought I was ready for a relationship, but now I realize that I am not. In my anger, I have lost all the feelings I had about you. It’s not you, it’s me. I just hate being around men right now.”

 

How many half-assed clichés are in there? Half a dozen (literally)? And everywhere I turn, there is a consensus that ‘Oh, it’s totally the guy’s fault.’ Hence the thread.

Now all this analyzing, I'm not sure is healthy for you… Red Pill… Those philosophies create a hyperbolic view of relationships and while there is some truth to it/them, it's not as black and white. [/Quote] I feel you’re right about analyzing. I always analyze. Everything. I have trouble letting go. I want to understand and I want to know everything. Even though I am not into the Red Pill philosophy, what I’ve learned is… similar. Think hard rock in comparison to death metal on a scale of aggressiveness. The things I’ve learned I see are very applicable. I understand behavior which makes women fall for bad guys and the perverse appeal for wealth. I understand the difference between pretty, handsome, and attractive. What I’ve read so far has gotten me results in the dating field. It is a belief I have nurtured and benefited from a lot. I feel like it is 100% correct. Will you recommend me another guide or school of thought that deals with this matter?

 

This relationship and the breakup were like a cigarette. Hot and bright; the faster it was consummated, the faster it burned out; and then it got past the filter, burned my lips and set my facial hair on fire. My lips have healed, but my beard has grown back extremely coarse.

And when I turn to what I know about reasons for breakups, I learn that it was my fault the cigarette burned me, and it was probably not burned out, because it is very likely that some other guy picked it up, rejuvenated it, and took it to bed with him a week (or a day) later.

 

 

@ singsparkles, not the answer I needed but an answer I think I deserved. Thank you for the encouraging words. I know the things you told me in theory, and I do believe them. But there is a difference between knowing and believing and feeling. With most things in life, I have never gotten to this third stage.

 

 

 

Loneliness and confusion are what troubles me the most at this point. Not to mention my whole world view being twisted and torn between what you people refer to as the Red Pill and now learning that it is a deceitful concept.

[mightycpa]

Let me explain something to you that this Corey Wayne has apparently left completely out of his system, or philosophy, or whatever it is he's peddling.

 

Compared to keeping a girl around for the long haul, getting a girl to **** you for a while is super-easy.

 

What it takes to keep them around sounds deceptively easy, but it comes with a string attached...

 

The system: Be yourself

 

The catch: The girl has to like who you really are. Most won't. The law of large numbers says that you will eventually find one who does, but only if you work in large numbers, and are clever enough to figure out if you like who she really is.

[mrldii]

...Additionally, you never add anything to the topic itself, nor do you state arguments. Your first post was you talking about yourself, your second post was pure, uncalled for, and juvenile sarcasm, and your third post is… well, a combination of the two. You then proceeded to dismiss the explanation given to you by a respected member, and explained that:

You keep defending your own actions (even though nobody attacks them) and continuously attack my arguments (with nothing more advanced than bare sarcasm).

Did I hit a nerve, or are you just trolling for a fight?...

 

In your OP and in your subsequent posts, you have taken your limited empirical data and used it as the basis to draw general conclusions applied to others.

 

I have simply used my limited empirical data to refute your assessments.

 

I am no more trolling for a fight in my response which utilizes the same tools, as you were when initially employing them.

 

 

You used your limited personal experience to prove this is how/what/why women are as they are; I used my limited personal experience to prove it is not.

[Katarn]

Compared to keeping a girl around for the long haul, getting a girl to **** you for a while is super-easy. [/Quote]That would explain why most dating coaches hardly ever address relationship balance. Kind of a pang knowing this, I thought I was good with women. I find this theory acceptable. It makes sense when applied to real-life situations.

 

The catch: The girl has to like who you really are. Most won't... igure out if you like who she really is. [/Quote]But I am the same person I present myself to be. Do you mean with the comfort and closeness added? Because we never really got too close emotionally. I didn't go out of my way to open up, and I liked her better when she was the same way. We weren't together long enough to get too close on that level.

 

To be honest, I liked her for who I thought she was. But later, either by impulse, or external influence, or her own personality, she became someone I was not too fond of. Her true self, I assume. And I didn't like her that way. As I said, I never saw true repentance about what she had done in the past. And although she was very close, she just didn't cut it as an intellectual girl. Her viewpoints were based on what she liked, rather than what was right, and her arguments never went past some vague, spiritual excuses and exclamations of personal preference. While I didn't disapprove of them, I made it clear to her that I disagreed with some of her tastes. We seemed like a perfect match only on the outside. We were too different in reality. Which is why I not only avoided, but also feared the possibility of a serious relationship.

 

But I did enjoy her more than other girls. Why? - I have no idea. I think it was that she stood out from the others. She didn't have the annoying quirks of a mundane girl, but she had all the sweetness and manners of a "vanilla" girlfriend.

So I did want to be with her.

 

Despite the school of thought that insists it was, I started wondering whether the breakup was my fault because I had unconsciously done things to drive her away, as I had subconsciously disliked most of her.

 

But then I went like: Wait... she gave a cheating, bullying, locally despised person five years time, but decided two weeks of slacking were too much?

And then I started thinking about what the "Red Pill" professes.

You were not man enough. He was. Beating and cheating made him macho, and girls dig macho. You were too mellow for her to not want to leave you over trivial slacking...

 

It's hard on my ego. I feel confident around other girls, true, but I feel an identity crisis whether I want to be who I have been until now, or whether I should amp my macho-ism - or alternatively, invest more in politeness and emotional bonding.

 

Being a person I never planned to be serious with, I know she is not a person I should take back into my life. Awkwardness of going to same classes aside, allowing her to come back will be a mistake. Knowing this hurts, because I know that all the things I wanted to have her experience with me will never happen. I really thought we could have had a great time a while longer. And then I got blindsided.

 

 

your limited empirical data... my limited empirical data... your limited personal experience... my limited personal experience [/Quote]Ever met someone with unlimited empirical data, Thou last great prophet of tautology?

 

Sarcasm is a weapon. There is no use for weapons in nonviolent encounters. You show aggression in your posts.

I, however, despite an occasional outburst of unfocused frustration, do not. So there is no reason for your demonstration of hostility. I am therefore led to believe that having hit a nerve is a far more likely cause for your behavior.

 

If you have not noticed until now, my posts refer to girls, not women. Granted, one can adapt and/or maintain a juvenile mentality regardless of their age, but my posts were aimed at people who follow the patterns I described.

You hardly ever explain anything. You just sound aggressive, and because of that, defensive.

 

 

 

P.S. Unless this was an unconscious intention, I did not plan to make this thread about my failed relationship. What I had in mind was a discussion about the phenomenon stated in the title. But I see very little replies of that nature.

Did I post in the wrong forum for that? Is there a way to move this discussion in the right place? I am really interested in people's insights on the topic. This has turned into explaining my own breakup and arguing with a senior member of the forum. Not that I regret posting here, though.